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  #51  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:39 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
@Wreave

And I have replied! Looking forward to a good conversation down there!

@Rhilor

I didn't want to make this its own post but...



I hope with this comment that you understand my own frustration. Lon-ami's answer gets at a possible solution to seeing a faction utterly decimated, but your reaction also shows that when a writer proposes something like that, they are asking for a lot of trust.

That works if you have built that trust up! I have seen little but optimism from Forsaken fans that they're going to be shown as strong and powerful. They have backing to be able to say that. Night Elves, meanwhile, do not.
the problem with the night elves is that they are part of an alliance whose majority population does not give a shit what happens in kalimdor. most of the players in the alliance want to win in lordaeron and do not mind losing in kalimdor, so blizz gives the alliance what it wants and allows the horde to hit the night elves.
if the alliance players were not so obsessed with the blood elf model the nightborne would be a race allied of the night elves and would have sumar! but they want the blood elf model so they give the horde a race that clearly should have been for the night elves.

What do I expect? that the alliance wins in Kalimdor that the night elves manage to recover their home, that the horde wins in lordaeron and the forsaken return to their land.

which is what we have so far with respect to this that the horde fight against the alliance in arathi and the alliance fights against the horde in barrens
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  #52  
Old 02-15-2018, 10:17 AM
Rexxar Rexxar is offline

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Have to agree with Wreave, the problem at this point is not that NEs are neglected OR the destruction of Teldrassil per se (which, I think, was as needed as UC's from a mechanical standpoint) but that we're unsure if there will be proper follow-through in the story, unlike with Lordaeron, which we know will get it

Until we see payoff, which are the vengeful and wild NEs born from the incident, who were mentioned some posts before, and an impactful storyline written for them, we can only assume that one of the best WC3 races got obliterated for the sake of faction symmetry. This pessimistic jump to conclusions is what OP and many others do.

Unfortunately I do not think there is room for much of their development in BfA. What I am hoping for is that they get seeded, like how Legion was seeded starting back in MoP, so that we can see a Suramar-sized reclamation campaign two expansions down the line for Kalimdor NEs. We're still early in the expansion's lore and honestly have zero idea whats planned for NEs.

What I'm saying is, even if there is a NE reclamation, or resistance force, or something along these lines NE players can identify with as suggested by OP, these kind of narratives drag for several years in WoW, because theres no more room for them. I like how vocal the community is about the night elven issue, and agree with OPs points, I just think we should be a tad bit more patient with Blizz, cuz theyre SLOW and we know it and cannot really do anything about it.

On a different note:
I also really like the idea of the Horde's defeat as a catalisator for the Alliance's dissolution. If Warcraft would ever move forward from the two-faction system, this sounds like the way to go. (Saying this as a Horde player.)
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  #53  
Old 02-15-2018, 10:50 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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In a way night elves have one of the same story problems as orcs. The lore and content surrounding both are disproportionately weighted toward obsessing over how impressive they used to be before WoW, while in the night elves' case clearly delineating that it's no longer the case and that they don't share the narrative's fixation on that past.

We saw tons of orcs stuff in WoD, and it unerringly hearkened back to the old Horde instead of actually doing anything interesting with the new one. We experienced tons of night elf stuff in the Broken Isles, and the bulk of it was a bunch of callbacks to the time before they became the night elves we know now (followed by "hey, and the parts we put the most effort into all belong to the Horde now, so suck it. Here's a few elf haircuts and draenei beards for your trouble.)

Neither gives anything to really grow or develop the orcs and night elves of today. The orcs just keep not addressing any of their own past beyond continuing to idolize psychopathic killers as nostalgic reminders of the first games, and the night elves just keep getting kicked around as the lion's share of their new lore serves just to remind us of how they used to be cool and impressive badasses who didn't get kicked around.

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-15-2018 at 11:14 AM..
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  #54  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:57 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Rexxar View Post
Unfortunately I do not think there is room for much of their development in BfA. What I am hoping for is that they get seeded, like how Legion was seeded starting back in MoP, so that we can see a Suramar-sized reclamation campaign two expansions down the line for Kalimdor NEs. We're still early in the expansion's lore and honestly have zero idea whats planned for NEs.

What I'm saying is, even if there is a NE reclamation, or resistance force, or something along these lines NE players can identify with as suggested by OP, these kind of narratives drag for several years in WoW, because theres no more room for them. I like how vocal the community is about the night elven issue, and agree with OPs points, I just think we should be a tad bit more patient with Blizz, cuz theyre SLOW and we know it and cannot really do anything about it.
I'm just going to comment on this point.... and I'm going to apologize for sounding as antagonistic as I do - it's nothing against you because you're probably right. They probably will make us wait without an answer, if they ever intend to make these developments mean anything.

So, in regards to patience. I've been waiting for about seven years for good Night Elf content that I can feel proud of. During six of those years, I subsidized content that I didn't want to play, or content that was designed, in the ways I have demonstrated, to make me feel miserable for some other player's benefit. So when I'm asked to be patient, I have to ask: how much more is enough? One year? Two years? Six?

Or, maybe I ought to put it in other terms, because time IS money (friend). How much content that I don't enjoy do I have to subsidize for other players? I'm being asked, depending on when expansions release, to pay an amount equal to what I would get for three to four sixty dollar releases made by developers that actually care about delivering an experience that I will enjoy, to pay for a franchise that doesn't want me in it ... on the wisp of a hope - a hope unsupported by data - that one day maybe they'll throw me a bone?

That doesn't sound entirely reasonable to me.

(Now, if your answer is "Then just stop playing". I agree. Night Elf fans should stop paying this company until their behavior changes. In the meantime, the people who are benefitting from these changes should pay for them without our help.)
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  #55  
Old 02-17-2018, 04:02 AM
Rexxar Rexxar is offline

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Nae generally I feel with you, NEs were my absolute fave in W3, and was pretty bummed when I had to delete my 110 night elf hunter because nothing felt like them about her. Not even ONE good night elf set, like a heritage armor typea deal. Even that would be a huge step forward, as WoW (for me) was always more about the aesthetic themes than the themes' indepth lore (see void elves >_<)
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  #56  
Old 02-17-2018, 10:45 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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What you propose is our defeat and destruction, no one in the horde would accept that. as no one in the alliance would accept that the horde annihilated the alliance!
I'm proposing that for both factions. The Horde needs to go first, because there's no way they can split without their highly number of warmongers being culled or isolated first.

The Alliance have always been the good guys, because they're civilized enough to live outside the constant cycle of war. The Horde is incapable of that, and that incapability has only gotten worse since Thrall left.

If the Horde won and the Alliance was destroyed, Alliance races would probably get enslaved or exterminated, and the Horde would eventually explode from infighting once they have no enemies left.

The Horde has no future through victory.

Orcs are savage fucks that don't belong in cities, and should go back to the clan system. Most forsaken are a menace to life itself, and should be put to rest. There's no good ending awaiting them, no matter the path.

How I would do it:

Once the Horde is defeated, tauren and night elves form a new druid-focused faction for themselves, with some other minor races, and take control of northern and western Kalimdor. They then live in balance with nature, clashing against centaurs, silithids, and orcs now and then.

Jungle trolls join the Zandalari, rebuild their empire without the orcish baggage, and live in good terms with the humans, recruiting goblins into their fold. Forest and ice trolls are left aside in their small corners of the world, or leave their homelands to join the new southern empire. Zul'Aman won't stand around long, since they're alone, surrounded, and way too warlike, much like orcs. The new jungle troll empire could try to negotiate between high elves, humans, and forest trolls, but it doesn't look easy.

Blood elves are another menace, but most can be turned back into high elves. The few that escape the fall of Silvermoon can hide in Kalimdor, and then rebuild Theramore for themselves after the Horde's defeat, becoming a sort of rogue magical kingdom, where some forsaken could retreat as well.

Most forsaken would be killed, and those who aren't would rejoin the new kingdom of Lordaeron, who would embrace undeath as part of its culture, turning their fallen warriors into undead if they're worthy, so they can keep serving the nation. The plaguelands would be cleansed, and the Scourge presence removed completely from the Eastern Kingdoms.

Orcs go back to clans, and spread around Kalimdor, mostly around the Barrens and Durotar. Some of the more peaceful clans could be allowed to go further than that, and settle on other locations that aren't occupied by any other faction. They would all be far enough from each other, as to not form another Horde ever again. Tauren keep their distance from them, understanding this is the best outcome for them. The tides turn, and orcs become the nomad tribes, while tauren settle down and build their own nation.

As for the Alliance, humans split in kingdoms once again. Gilneas embraces the worgen curse as part of their culture, much like Lordaeron embraced undeath. Dalaran is restored, and takes over Alterac and Hillsbrad, becoming a magical superpower and the capital of the civilized world, hosting the "United Nations" of Azeroth, and welcoming other races. Stromgarde is restored and takes over eastern Lordaeron. Kul Tiras and Stormwind are still around.

The kingdom of Silvermoon is restored, but the high elves shun arcane magic, returning to nature and the light instead, leaving the humans as the only ones with a strong magical culture. The dwarves split in three once again, Blackrock Mountain and Grim Batol being properly retaken and rebuilt. Gnomes see no changes. Stormwind and the draenei keep a healthy relationship through the light, and join in as a single nation, leaving the isles of Kalimdor, which would be occupied by night elves. Stormwind becomes a religious superpower through the light.

Pandaren reunite under a single banner once again, and become wary of foreigners and the wars they could bring to their lands. The Scourge disappears, and the nerubians slowly rebuild their empire, embracing undeath as part of their culture as well.

Draenor and Outland collapse or get destroyed, their races receiving refuge in Azeroth. The ogres are given shelter by the trolls, and the arakkoa find a home in Kalimdor under the night elves.

Four major factions dominate the future of Azeroth:
  • Pact of Kalimdor: Lead by the night elves, includes the tauren, the arakkoa, and minor native races from Kalimdor. Big emphasis on druidism and shamanism. They control most of Kalimdor. They are lead by Tyrande Whisperwind, who is back to his old W3 self now that Malfurion is out of scene (sleeping, dead, or whatever). They have the best quality of life, but they are ruled with an iron fist, giving tradition and authority a lot of importance.
  • Zandabashi Empire: The reborn troll empire, including Zandalari, jungle, and sand trolls, together with goblins and ogres. They control the South Seas. They are lead by a council, representing each group inside the faction, which names a leader every few years. Life is hard, but good. They represent the traders and the free world the best.
  • Alliance of Lordaeron: A coalition of independent human, dwarf, elf, and gnome kingdoms, working together through a parliament of democratically elected representatives in Dalaran, instead of an individual leader. They control most of the Eastern Kingdoms, and have constant political disputes between each other, but they never get too bad. Most of the power still lies in each king's hands. Bureaucracy can get really bad at times, and the system forces "rebel" kingdoms to fall in line too often, the will of the majority preventing change and progress.
  • Free Nations: An excuse of a faction, founded by the blood elves who escaped the fall of Silvermoon. Mostly a huge criminal cartel, with their capital city at Dustwallow Marsh, over the ruins of Theramore. Survives by working for the other factions against each other. Regularly employs orcish mercenaries, breaking all treaties, and "fights for the rights" of minor groups who feel menaced by the major factions. Some of their members have good intentions, fighting for a better world, but their nation is too rotten at the core and they never make any progress. Many dissidents flee to them from the other factions. There's a lot of freedom, but slavery is widespread as well. There are no rules, for the best and for the worst, and you're on your own.

That's my ideal future for Azeroth.
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  #57  
Old 02-20-2018, 08:10 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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How I would do it:
Thank god you are not in charge then, because this is a complete incoherent, backwards mess of just your own personal wish fulfillment that would also require a metric shit tonne of retcons.
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  #58  
Old Yesterday, 09:23 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Thank god you are not in charge then, because this is a complete incoherent, backwards mess of just your own personal wish fulfillment that would also require a metric shit tonne of retcons.
Not to be a pain in the neck about this, and I'm not saying this in support or condemnation of the ideas proposed, but how does that differ from the usual fare of Blizzard's writing team? (i.e. The people who are in charge)

To those responding: please give me something a bit meatier than something tantamount to "it just does".
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