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Old 06-12-2016, 09:38 AM
handclaw handclaw is offline


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Default [Theorycraft] Warcraft 3 CO-OP Commanders

So, basic premise: what if warcraft 3 had a co-op mode similar to Starcraft 2?

For those of you who don't know: In the co-op mode you control one of (currently) 8 commanders, while your teammate controls another. The commanders are modified versions of the multiplayer races, including but not limited to units and tech featured in the campaign. More often than not, the commander has a certain theme/gimmick, which determines the kind of strategies you can use. E.g.: You have Raynor, who focuses heavily on infantry and uses droppods, while Swann focuses on mech units (and in fact, can't build infantry at all) and has a laser drill turret from the get go.

Anyway, my point of the thread is:
What commanders could Warcraft 3 have and how could they work?

For example, you could have Rexxar as a Horde commander who doesn't use the barracks, and instead builds the Beastiary on Tier 1 and got special upgrades for them, as well as having some unique beast units.

On the other hand, you could have Gazlowe who has access to a goblin laboratory instead of a Beastiary, and focuses an more reinforced structures.

I'll go in detail later, but I thought it could be fun to brainstorm this a bit.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:52 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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All Commanders have themselves as a hero unit, since they were more intrinsic to Warcraft than Starcraft.

Thrall: Baseline Horde with some extra shamanistic buffs. Can make spirit lodge earlier, wolf riders are frostwolves and have a freezing ability in addition to the net.

Gazlowe: Makes shredders, zeppelins, and sappers out of goblin labs. Can also make a goblin observatory to reveal areas of map for extended periods of time.

Jaina: Baseline Alliance with extra caster buffs. Can make the arcane sanctum earlier, and Hydromancer units in addition to priests and sorceresses, who can summon water elementals.

Muradin: Can play to two playstyles depending on whether Frostdwarf research is done or Bronzebeard research is done. Frostdwarves have heavier air units with Frosteagles to support the wildhammer and gyrocopters. Bronzebeard research has buffed steam tanks, riflemen, and dwarf shieldbearers.

Sylvanas: Focus on overwhelming larger numbers, and staying power. Can make dark rangers (weaker than hero unit sylv herself) but no nerubians or frost wyrms, etc... Banshees respawn with no mana when the unit they possessed is destroyed but this ability has a long cooldown (Similar to protoss purifiers self-rebuild).

Tyrande: Baseline nelfs with ranged focus. Moonwells can rejuvenate at a greater distance around the base. Elune research lets units rejuvenate while shadowmelded. Scouting owl abilities have cooldowns now instead of single uses.
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Old 06-12-2016, 12:21 PM
Funk, the Bard Funk, the Bard is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Sylvanas: Focus on overwhelming larger numbers, and staying power. Can make dark rangers (weaker than hero unit sylv herself) but no nerubians or frost wyrms, etc... Banshees respawn with no mana when the unit they possessed is destroyed but this ability has a long cooldown (Similar to protoss purifiers self-rebuild).
Arthas should be the one to focus on overwhelming numbers (as he is Scourge).

Sylvanas should be less but more powerful, maybe? Also, Banshees come fully upgraded and Possessed units are more powerful.

Maybe Archimonde/Tichondrius for a third one. Weaker units on Tier 1 and Tier 2 overall but at Tier 3 there's a tech that allows you to build Demons on undead structures.
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Old 06-12-2016, 12:37 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Funk, the Bard View Post
Arthas should be the one to focus on overwhelming numbers (as he is Scourge).

Sylvanas should be less but more powerful, maybe? Also, Banshees come fully upgraded and Possessed units are more powerful.

Maybe Archimonde/Tichondrius for a third one. Weaker units on Tier 1 and Tier 2 overall but at Tier 3 there's a tech that allows you to build Demons on undead structures.
You're reading that backwards. Sylvanas units are designed to -kill- large numbers of weaker units. Basically an Anti-Scourge/Zerg group.
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Old 06-12-2016, 12:48 PM
Funk, the Bard Funk, the Bard is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
You're reading that backwards. Sylvanas units are designed to -kill- large numbers of weaker units. Basically an Anti-Scourge/Zerg group.
Oh, that makes sense. Maybe some melee units with cleave and Val'kyrs with Dispel Magic because Destroyers are too expensive.
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Old 06-12-2016, 12:56 PM
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Oh, that makes sense. Maybe some melee units with cleave and Val'kyrs with Dispel Magic because Destroyers are too expensive.
I was thinking more apothecaries and plague catapults with wide area aoe's and dots.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:28 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Sylvanas

Crypt
Forsaken, Vampire Bat.

Slaughterhouse
Abomination, Apothecary, Plague Catapult

Dark Hall
Banshee, Dark Ranger

Helheim Portal
Valkyr
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:09 AM
Andrettin Andrettin is offline

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This is an interesting feature. IMO it would be even better if it were based on factions (i.e. which human nation) rather than commanders.
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:23 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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This is an interesting feature. IMO it would be even better if it were based on factions (i.e. which human nation) rather than commanders.
That would be something more for a Warcraft II: Enhanced Edition, in my opinion. Which I would gladly help to realize, by the way.
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrettin View Post
This is an interesting feature. IMO it would be even better if it were based on factions (i.e. which human nation) rather than commanders.
Eh, commanders (or better, heroes) is more in line with the Warcraft 3 design, which put a huge focus on the hero units in both, campaign and multiplayer. In fact, going with factions is an arbitary limiting factor as even individual commanders of a faction could lead differently and in turn offer different gameplay. Take Rexxar for example. He doesn't represent any faction at all, but he has a beast theme which is also present in the horde race, so it allows one to design a commander around that.

Another example: You can easily say that Varimathras and Sylvanas belong to the same faction. But what you can do with both of them could vary a lot.

In the end, with heroes you can do as much as with factions, if not more. And if one wants to have a commander representing a certain faction, just pick a fitting hero and go ahead.
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Old 10-17-2016, 05:49 AM
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That would be something more for a Warcraft II: Enhanced Edition, in my opinion. Which I would gladly help to realize, by the way.
Well I plan to create A coop commanders mode for my Chronicles of Azeroth warcraft 2 remake.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:43 AM
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Well I plan to create A coop commanders mode for my Chronicles of Azeroth warcraft 2 remake.
Excellent
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:04 AM
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To give some additional context, consider the Terran commanders in SC2: Raynor, Swann, and Nova are all Terran commanders, but have vastly different emphases.

Raynor capitalizes on biological unit rushes (Marines, Medics, Firebats and Marauders) with air support from his CD-delimited Banshee and Hyperiod calldowns. He can build Factory units if he wants, so he's as close to a traditional Terran player in terms of unit access as possible.

Swann, by contrast, focuses on mechanized units and defensive structures, as well as enhancing vespene production. He has a calldown for bringing in temporary mechanized units but his big defining ability is the Drakken laser drill that he can fire at any point on the map once he spawns it.

Nova, unlike Raynor and Swann, is a hero unit on the battlefield herself, and focuses on deploying smaller groups of more powerful units, both biological and mechanized. She also has the ability to switch modes between being a frontline unit in Assault or a backline harassment unit in Stealth.

The bottom line is that within each faction (in SC2 certainly and relatively easily in WC) there are different ways to emphasize particular themes and have the commander amplify them, often in ways that would be overpowered if they weren't separated by commander.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:22 AM
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The bottom line is that within each faction (in SC2 certainly and relatively easily in WC) there are different ways to emphasize particular themes and have the commander amplify them, often in ways that would be overpowered if they weren't separated by commander.
Thrall would be the "Raynor" of the Horde, a mix of organic characters fueled by orc shamanism, as close to WC3 Horde as you can get.

Vol'jin would be more troll focused, with an emphasis on magic and cunning tricks to turn the tide for his squishier units, wrecking enemy fliers and fortifications with his bats.

Gazlowe using a mix of Orc mercs and goblin units, massive lumber harvesting boost due to shredders, maybe ways to make sappers survive or maximize their charges? Zeppelins of course too.

Etc...?
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:30 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Extrapolating that to Alliance in a Warcraft context, you could so something like this:

Danath Trollbane is a hero unit on the field. Emphasizes building melee units from the Barracks, accelerating weapon and armor upgrades from the Blacksmith, and has cooldown-delimited abilities for buffing the units surrounding Danath.

Jaina Proudmoore is NOT on the field. She capitalizes on building Sorceress units and enhances them with spell armor and permanent Water Elemental pets. She has calldowns for dropping a Super Blizzard on an area and can also Mass Teleport units to visible locations on the map.

Magni Bronzebeard is NOT on the field. Deploys Thanes (diet Mountain Kings), Riflemen, and Gryphon Riders, and also has a Mortar Team Catapult at his primary base that can deploy a Mortar Team anywhere on the map.

Above ideas aren't intended to be complete, just an example of how you could take different units within the Alliance overall kit and find ways to emphasize them differently.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:00 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Danath? Hahahahahahahahahaha. Who?
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Old 01-17-2017, 03:28 PM
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Danath? Hahahahahahahahahaha. Who?
Just using an example of a footman-oriented named character. Don't get your knickers in a twist.
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Old 01-17-2017, 04:10 PM
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One Commander that I think could be interesting is Cenarius focusing on using Ancients (the structures) in combat. Having various upgrades and them having of course abilities as well.

Some notes I made for Uther the Lightbringer is that his melee units will have shields and heals of their own, while not having any ranged units besides priests (who at least are more powerful than regular priests). So a strong focus on sustain.
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
One Commander that I think could be interesting is Cenarius focusing on using Ancients (the structures) in combat. Having various upgrades and them having of course abilities as well.

Some notes I made for Uther the Lightbringer is that his melee units will have shields and heals of their own, while not having any ranged units besides priests (who at least are more powerful than regular priests). So a strong focus on sustain.
The question I get into with Uther is whether it's mounted paladins from WC2 or infantry paladins from WC3. Mounted paladins would at least afford an ability to close quickly, which could help against squishier ranged units. Alternatively, Uther and his units being a slow-roll deathball of self-heals would be able to ignore ranged damage long enough to close anyway; it would just take longer.
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Old 01-18-2017, 03:14 PM
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The question I get into with Uther is whether it's mounted paladins from WC2 or infantry paladins from WC3. Mounted paladins would at least afford an ability to close quickly, which could help against squishier ranged units. Alternatively, Uther and his units being a slow-roll deathball of self-heals would be able to ignore ranged damage long enough to close anyway; it would just take longer.
Well, I imagine Uther being a commander with a hero unit (though, most of my concepts for this was build around having a hero most of the time as warcraft 3 itself is far more hero centric). If I'd adapt the human race for his forces, I'd turn his footman into Squires (with a divine shield ability that absorbs a few hitpoints?) and his Knights into Paladins or Crusaders (perhaps with a more wc2 look).
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Old 01-19-2017, 03:34 PM
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Some Quick and nasty Thoughts (mostly night elves)

Tyrande. Focuses on night elf units and priestesses- Priestesses have healing, and plenty of offensive utility. Tyrande appears on the battlefield to grant Trueshot aura and the Like.

Malfurion. Druidic units only. Whereas Tyrande's army uses offensive utility, Malfurion uses more defensive utility, such as buildings being able to defend themselves, and also uses fewer, stronger front line units. Doesn't appear in the battle, but can cast healing rains on allies.

Maiev. Pretty much like how you described Nova- fewer, but stronger (night elven) units. Also a focus on ambush tactics and traps- To win a fight, you have to make them short and decisive.

Muradin. Strong defensively, with powerful siege, front line, and defensive buildings. Expensive units, with low mobility, but strong in their base, and a danger to your own... When they finally get there (Compare with AoE II Teutons?)

Gallywix- An economy commander. Alone, his armies are weak. However, you probably want one on your team, because if you defend him, he'll be able to send you resources. Lots of them...

I maaay need to work out how this'd fit into WC3
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:39 AM
Triumvirate Triumvirate is offline

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As much as I am fine with Wc3 as it is, and as much as I kinda dislike Sc2's weird game-modes like this... This is a fantastic idea, very exciting. One of my favorite parts of some of my favorite RTS's was the ability to pick different 'sub-factions', complete with a cool new sub-faction-themed unit. Really I'm just a sucker for units.

Age of Empires with those Teutonic Knights; Yuri's Revenge with those Soviet Desolators... Ahhh.

I know that's not quite the thrust of this thread, though it could perhaps be seen as a part of it (special modified factions based on a Commander). I also agree that Warcraft 3 is a great game for this, with it's emphasis on heroes.

Also also, big fan of Marthen's suggestion of a Warcraft 2 with all that (human/orc sub-factions that actually *play* different).

No suggestions as of yet. Carry on.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:32 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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I love this idea!

I think that Warcraft 3 already has some of this built in considering Heroes are already a part of the game and your picks tend to influence your builds towards a certain type of unit combo to compliment your Hero picks. However, I'll assume this is for a PVE mode and meant to be played in co-op.

I think it would be interesting to visit heroes not already in Warcraft 3 as commanders, so here's a few ideas.

Knights of the Silver Hand
- The Silver Hand during the events of Warcraft 3. Join the Silver Hand on a holy crusade to purge Lordaeron of all its enemies.

Playstyle: Holy Crusade
This style is a melee-oriented powerhouse that relies on strong, armored units and holy magic to outlast the opponent. Knights and Priests are the primary focus units.

Crusader
- Knights can be upgraded to Crusaders. Crusaders have a Charge ability, similar to Zealots in SC2. The Holy Lance upgrade will imbue their Charge ability to deal bonus Magic damage. This allows them to make short work of melee and get straight to ranged units

For Lordaeron!
- All units are formally Lordaeron soldiers and have a strong tie to the Holy Light. Through upgrades, their strength in their faith can give them Spell Resistance and lower duration of debuffs. They also increased healing from all sources by 20%.
This makes all units a bit more durable against magic-heavy compositions.

Ashbringer
- Access to Alexandros Mograine. He is an offense-oriented hero. He wields the Ashbringer, which has a chance to blast opponents with blinding light, dealing holy damage and causing nearby enemies miss. His abilities would be based on Uther in Heroes of the Storm, dishing out armor through heals and stunning enemies. His ultimate is Divine Storm, and instead of a cooldown its holy power is charged up by casting spells and healing allies.

This is the first of my ideas and it's based on my love of playing Paladin/MK/Knight comboes in 3v3 games.

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