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View Poll Results: What do you think the Undead Allied Race should be?
San’layn, the Vampiric Elves 4 23.53%
Holy Undead under Calia, the true Queen of Lordaeron 11 64.71%
Both those options are bad. Something else (do tell) 1 5.88%
No Undead Allied Race 1 5.88%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:07 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Undead Icon (War3) Undead Allied Race poll SPOILERS

Between datamining/beta and the excerpts from the upcoming novel there have been two options seeded as the “undead allied race.”

1. San’layn. Vampiric Undead Elves once in the service of the Lich King. As of Beta Sylvanas has enlisted the aid of one of their princes.

2. According to excerpts from the Novel, Anduin and Alonsus Foal work together to raise a freshly-slaughtered-by-Sylvanas Calia Menethil as some sort of Light-Animated Undead. Add to that the remodel on Uther’s Tomb, not to mention Uther himself...... I’m seeing possibilities.

Of the two, I think I’d prefer the Holy Dead. It maintains Lordaeron’s status as a land of the Dead but let’s us play as Lordaeronians who aren’t, well, the antithesis of everything they were in life. It’s a good direction for Calia (though more will need to be done for it to work). I’d put these guys in the Alliance, swap out Warlocks for Paladins, and give them a model similar to Nathanos with some holy touched. Plus, I really do think we have more than enough Elves.

But that’s just me. What do you think?
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:32 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I think Light Undead will be an Allied Race... for the Horde. At the end of the expansion, when Sylvanas is killed off and Calia becomes the new Queen of Lordaeron. It really feels like they are building up to offing that horrible witch, and it has been a long time coming.
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:43 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I think Light Undead will be an Allied Race... for the Horde. At the end of the expansion, when Sylvanas is killed off and Calia becomes the new Queen of Lordaeron. It really feels like they are building up to offing that horrible witch, and it has been a long time coming.
K. I can see your logic on the whole reaper coming for Sylvanas angle, but......

I’m sure you realize the stretch to bring Calia over to the Horde. She has been in the Alliance since it’s inception, she was raised by the King and High Priest of the Alliance........ how is it you see her defecting to the Horde?
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:13 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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K. I can see your logic on the whole reaper coming for Sylvanas angle, but......

I’m sure you realize the stretch to bring Calia over to the Horde. She has been in the Alliance since it’s inception, she was raised by the King and High Priest of the Alliance........ how is it you see her defecting to the Horde?
If Blizzard wants to move away from faction war, I could see Calia becoming an Alliance-friendly Forsaken leader.

Jaina was friendly to the Horde for a long time, Baine has no ill feelings for the Alliance, Anduin always respected the Horde. I could see Calia choosing to lead the Forsaken and having to join the Horde because of that, but still having respect for the Alliance and cross-faction contacts.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:14 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
K. I can see your logic on the whole reaper coming for Sylvanas angle, but......

I’m sure you realize the stretch to bring Calia over to the Horde. She has been in the Alliance since it’s inception, she was raised by the King and High Priest of the Alliance........ how is it you see her defecting to the Horde?
Her people are part of the Horde. Sylvanas has been shown to be a sociopathic monster that slaughters her own for giggles.

I also see this expansion as putting a genuine, permanent end to the "faction war" bullshit. It wouldn't be an issue if the Factions actually formed a treaty, and actually achieved peace, after Sylvanas is dead.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:29 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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San'layn for Horde, Holy Undead for Alliance.

Holy Undead going Horde would be an adequate replacement for Sylvanas but it makes zero sense why the enforced game mechanics behind the faction system would make them hostile to Alliance. I just don't want to be their enemies and I don't like the potential boneheaded ideas Blizzard could come up to make them hostile and satisfy that gameplay need.

If they honestly do go Horde, then at that point factions need to be softened because you take away any good reason to be opposed to the Horde once Sylvanas loyalists are gone.
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:14 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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If Blizzard wants to move away from faction war, I could see Calia becoming an Alliance-friendly Forsaken leader.

Jaina was friendly to the Horde for a long time, Baine has no ill feelings for the Alliance, Anduin always respected the Horde. I could see Calia choosing to lead the Forsaken and having to join the Horde because of that, but still having respect for the Alliance and cross-faction contacts.


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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Her people are part of the Horde. Sylvanas has been shown to be a sociopathic monster that slaughters her own for giggles.

I also see this expansion as putting a genuine, permanent end to the "faction war" bullshit. It wouldn't be an issue if the Factions actually formed a treaty, and actually achieved peace, after Sylvanas is dead.
So, basically Calia is installed as Queen of Lordaeron, but does so under Horde Colors in order to keep the peace. K, it seems plausible enough, especially if this expansion is the end for Sylvanas, and faction conflict. But........ while I personally could see it going either way with both of those things, I really feel like playing as a pious Lordaeronian is something that Alliance players want. I mean sure, Forsaken fans will invoke their claim on Lordaeron, but Alliance players have wanted it since Warcraft III. If Blizzard intends for the changes to continental territory to be permanent, then Holy Undead will have to go Alliance.


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San'layn for Horde, Holy Undead for Alliance.

Holy Undead going Horde would be an adequate replacement for Sylvanas but it makes zero sense why the enforced game mechanics behind the faction system would make them hostile to Alliance. I just don't want to be their enemies and I don't like the potential boneheaded ideas Blizzard could come up to make them hostile and satisfy that gameplay need.

If they honestly do go Horde, then at that point factions need to be softened because you take away any good reason to be opposed to the Horde once Sylvanas loyalists are gone.
I could see this, though this doesn’t help our surplus of Elves. Furthermore, it muscles out a spot for either Gnomes or Worgen to get an Allied Race of their own. Neither of these are deal breakers though. Blizz can do what they want. I like where your head is at thinking about what the other side gets in turn.

In the mean time, I have 2 things to ponder:
1. Can we get a better name for this Holy Dead? Revenants? Eternals? Light Wights?

2. How would the undead of your choice be unlocked? I could see Holy Dead coming with a final patch faction of the Royal House of Menethil, which opposes either the Royal Apothecary Society (leper Gnomes) or Sylvanas’ San’layn allies.
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  #8  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:26 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I don't think Calia actually has loyalty to the Alliance.
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:43 PM
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Good to see all the patriots in the poll.

Lordaeron for the Menethils!
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
So, basically Calia is installed as Queen of Lordaeron, but does so under Horde Colors in order to keep the peace. K, it seems plausible enough, especially if this expansion is the end for Sylvanas, and faction conflict. But........ while I personally could see it going either way with both of those things, I really feel like playing as a pious Lordaeronian is something that Alliance players want. I mean sure, Forsaken fans will invoke their claim on Lordaeron, but Alliance players have wanted it since Warcraft III. If Blizzard intends for the changes to continental territory to be permanent, then Holy Undead will have to go Alliance.
I need to clear up my previous post: I don't think the faction conflict will end. Maybe the war will, but not the hatred. If anything, I think both sides will end up too weakened to keep fighting, but there will be no chance of peace for a long time.

But, if Blizzard takes the option for peace, then I see Calia taking over the Forsaken and joining the Horde.

Quote:
1. Can we get a better name for this Holy Dead? Revenants? Eternals? Light Wights?
For now, I call them "undying", in opposition to "undead".
This come from some obscure D&D setting with positive energy-powered corpses, which act as guardians and defenders of sacred or holy places or avengers of a injustice (like The Crow).

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2. How would the undead of your choice be unlocked? I could see Holy Dead coming with a final patch faction of the Royal House of Menethil, which opposes either the Royal Apothecary Society (leper Gnomes) or Sylvanas’ San’layn allies.
Blightcaller-like revenants: Sylvanas acquire a fount of power for her val'kyr. Start turning her most loyal Forsaken into stronger undead.

San'layn: A pact is made. The leading San'layn are few, but able to turn/resurrect more elves into their kind. Scenario includes getting the corpses of several blood elves from quel'thalas and raising them.

"Undying:" Dunno. Worthy individuals being raised to fight again for a cause?
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:21 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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San'layn, but I don't MIND an Alliance Forsaken Allied Race. But I rather not.

Holy Undead and Void Elves. Yeesh. Can't we just have Forsaken who are more individualistic than just slapping Holy or Light to them that follow under Calia because Sylvanas in their eyes is going down Garrosh's road above coming off as a "Lich Queen"? Just seems so...Bad - Holy Undead.

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Old 05-16-2018, 11:00 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Relaying my thoughts more since I'm actually on a desktop now...

I feel calling the potential Calia-led undead "holy undead" is a misinformer. Worse yet, it is one that makes the idea seem far more absurd than it really is, making certain more sensitive people lose it over something that's not by far as controversial as their reaction would imply. It is rather unlikely these undead, were they to become a real thing, would be what Calia is now, hers too a specific case, plus it does not seem to fit the confines of the story direction, which seems concerned with currently existing Forsaken, not some future potential undead,. It is far more likely they will be more like converts, following Calia as their messiah and changing their whole outlook through her. So not so much light-raised undead, but more like undead who embraced their Lordaeron heritage, the Light (perhaps to the point of cleansing them of any Shadow inside them), perhaps even the Alliance once again. In other words, zealous, Light revering Lordaeron undead, not literally "holy undead".

As for their aesthetic, if they were to be an Alliance allied race, I doubt they would be just reskinned human models. I think they'd be given the undead model, only altered with different customization options (less rotten faces, less crazy hairstyles), skins (no protruding bones, ie less decomposed), white eyes (like Calia), and finally a bit more upright posture (though I suspect this would come in the form of a switch and be given to both undead versions because bias).

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I could see this, though this doesn’t help our surplus of Elves. Furthermore, it muscles out a spot for either Gnomes or Worgen to get an Allied Race of their own. Neither of these are deal breakers though. Blizz can do what they want. I like where your head is at thinking about what the other side gets in turn.

In the mean time, I have 2 things to ponder:
1. Can we get a better name for this Holy Dead? Revenants? Eternals? Light Wights?

2. How would the undead of your choice be unlocked? I could see Holy Dead coming with a final patch faction of the Royal House of Menethil, which opposes either the Royal Apothecary Society (leper Gnomes) or Sylvanas’ San’layn allies.
I think races like San'layn ought to have to wait a while since, like you said, too many elves in too little time. Not that I mind more elves when they're being added in this form and not as full blown major races, but I do think other races need a turn on offering something to the factions before we worry about that.

I think whether the prospect of Alliance Undead will require a Horde counterpart taking a race from Alliance depends a lot on just how Alliance Undead would look compared to Horde Undead. In the advent that they look closer to Horde Undead, I'm personally of the mind that Worgen and Undead should be counterparts in what offshoots they should offer, so maybe the Horde could get some kind of Worgen of their own as a counterpart to Alliance Undead? Could be a different werecreature entirely with the same model as Worgen or could be a form of primal Worgen that don't have any of the Gilnean culture and are straight up wild werewolves. Of course, only kind of Worgen I could see fitting that would be the remaining Wolf Cult or Arugal's remnant packs. The San'layn tried to resurrect him specifically to gain his army, Sylvanas could potentially have them try to do so again to buffer her forces.

Of course, some type of revenant undead could work as a Horde counterpart too, basically Nathanos in playable form. Humans are as much a rival to Undead as Worgen are, so it could perhaps make more sense as well depending on what kind of power Sylvanas could find to reforge some elite Forsaken troops.

But overall, I'm still far more supportive of these supposed Light-themed Undead going Alliance. I think it would be a very big point of character growth that the Alliance would accept Undead in some way and that entailing that a good number of them decide to join and rebuild their former lives. The novel actually details how Stormwind and Lordaeron were brother kingdoms, and I think that would be a very good thing to rekindle again. I want to see the classic Second War "Alliance of Lordaeron" rebuilt and made whole again in some fashion, even if it means it's returning members come back not the same as they once were, but still cling strongly to the ideals of the Alliance. It has since become something that's not sat well with me the idea that Quel'thalas and Lordaeron would join the Horde and I think that just ended up ruining the Alliance more, but I think Blizzard has an opportunity now to try to fix that and I think it would serve better to advance the Blood Elf and Forsaken story in a more Horde-like way and not just make them feel like ill-fitting Alliance races placed specifically on the Horde due to forced idiot ball-holding on the Alliance.

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Old 05-17-2018, 12:19 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Relaying my thoughts more since I'm actually on a desktop now...

I feel calling the potential Calia-led undead "holy undead" is a misinformer. Worse yet, it is one that makes the idea seem far more absurd than it really is, making certain more sensitive people lose it over something that's not by far as controversial as their reaction would imply. It is rather unlikely these undead, were they to become a real thing, would be what Calia is now, hers too a specific case, plus it does not seem to fit the confines of the story direction, which seems concerned with currently existing Forsaken, not some future potential undead,. It is far more likely they will be more like converts, following Calia as their messiah and changing their whole outlook through her. So not so much light-raised undead, but more like undead who embraced their Lordaeron heritage, the Light (perhaps to the point of cleansing them of any Shadow inside them), perhaps even the Alliance once again. In other words, zealous, Light revering Lordaeron undead, not literally "holy undead".

As for their aesthetic, if they were to be an Alliance allied race, I doubt they would be just reskinned human models. I think they'd be given the undead model, only altered with different customization options (less rotten faces, less crazy hairstyles), skins (no protruding bones, ie less decomposed), white eyes (like Calia), and finally a bit more upright posture (though I suspect this would come in the form of a switch and be given to both undead versions because bias).



I think races like San'layn ought to have to wait a while since, like you said, too many elves in too little time. Not that I mind more elves when they're being added in this form and not as full blown major races, but I do think other races need a turn on offering something to the factions before we worry about that.

I think whether the prospect of Alliance Undead will require a Horde counterpart taking a race from Alliance depends a lot on just how Alliance Undead would look compared to Horde Undead. In the advent that they look closer to Horde Undead, I'm personally of the mind that Worgen and Undead should be counterparts in what offshoots they should offer, so maybe the Horde could get some kind of Worgen of their own as a counterpart to Alliance Undead? Could be a different werecreature entirely with the same model as Worgen or could be a form of primal Worgen that don't have any of the Gilnean culture and are straight up wild werewolves. Of course, only kind of Worgen I could see fitting that would be the remaining Wolf Cult or Arugal's remnant packs. The San'layn tried to resurrect him specifically to gain his army, Sylvanas could potentially have them try to do so again to buffer her forces.

But overall, I'm still far more supportive of these supposed Light-themed Undead going Alliance. I think it would be a very big point of character growth that the Alliance would accept Undead in some way and that entailing that a good number of them decide to join and rebuild their former lives. The novel actually details how Stormwind and Lordaeron were brother kingdoms, and I think that would be a very good thing to rekindle again. I want to see the classic Second War "Alliance of Lordaeron" rebuilt and made whole again in some fashion, even if it means it's returning members come back not the same as they once were, but still cling strongly to the ideals of the Alliance. It has since become something that's not sat well with me the idea that Quel'thalas and Lordaeron would join the Horde and I think that just ended up ruining the Alliance more, but I think Blizzard has an opportunity now to try to fix that and I think it would serve better to advance the Blood Elf and Forsaken story in a more Horde-like way and not just make them feel like ill-fitting Alliance races placed specifically on the Horde due to forced idiot ball-holding on the Alliance.
Good points one and all. I agree. If Blizz were to do one thing to give Alliance back something, it would be to give them this Allied Race. It would ensure that the gains the Alliance makes in Lordaeron are permanent. Also I agree, it wouldn’t be bad if they were a touch less decayed than the Forsaken.

Back on the Allied Race Botany thread, I have a write up on Frost Worgen (Frostwolf Orcs who deal with the Worgen Curse using Shamanism as opposed to Druidism).
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:28 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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I feel like they are going to keep the faction continent switch permenant, and we can have Calia led Lightforged Undead vs a vengeance fuelled Nathanos leading the Forsaken, which now also has the San'layn.

The Alliance gets an 'undead' race, while the Horde get more Elves, which is always popular.

Alternatively, if they want to keep the number races that trade factions somewhat the same, then I could see some kind of Feral Worgen, Vrykul(being big humans), or Eredar joining the Horde. Though preferably they will wait for a more relevant story than just trying to shoehorn something in right away.
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And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:21 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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"Undying:" Dunno. Worthy individuals being raised to fight again for a cause?
Kinda makes her sound like a Val’kyr.......... maybe Odyn could convert her into the first “Angel.” If he’s taking over management at Ulduar, he might want to use her to deal with that Icecrown Citadel next door.

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Old 05-17-2018, 11:47 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The San'layn are there to make Undead Humans possible

New allied races:

- Holy Undead (A)
- Undead Humans (H)
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:04 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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I mulled it over; I could see an allied race of Alliance Forsaken ala to the Risen from Allods that use Naaru-Light tech to maintain their rotting decrepit bodies, without making them explode perhaps.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:11 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I mulled it over; I could see an allied race of Alliance Forsaken ala to the Risen from Allods that use Naaru-Light tech to maintain their rotting decrepit bodies, without making them explode perhaps.
I'd prefer they don't go too over-the-top. I'd just prefer simply Undead in medieval-style armor bringing justice to evil across Lordearon and opposing their Forsaken cousins who spit on Lordaeron's ideals.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:47 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I'll only accept Alliance Undead if it's openly said that they can only be trusted in the Alliance from being bathed in the Light and bathed by being in the same area as bathed Undead, without which they'd be no more trustworthy than Forsaken or Scourge.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:37 AM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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If anyone here is familiar with the Civilization IV mod(Submod) Fall from Heaven's Fall Further, there is a civilization that is an Undead Empire called the Scions of Patria. That could be a good basis for the Alliance splinter of Forsaken.
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Old 05-18-2018, 05:21 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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As an add-on to the above, I could support a campaign where Alliance troops capture Forsaken to be bathed in the Light with the less cooperative ones burnt.
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