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Old 09-09-2017, 08:46 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Default Undead In The Alliance: Or better non-Scourge Undead.

From a thread on proto-Warcraft 3:

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Yeah, the Crusaders were described somewhat as fanatical holy warriors in the GameStar preview.

Anyway, by the Forsaken, I specifically mean Sylvanas, her regime, and all their actions (Sylvanas invented the name, anyway). By no Forsaken, I mean a faction of free-willed undead not lead by Sylvanas, with a clearly different path than the Forsaken had taken.
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'd presume they'd be "humans with a skin condition". At least you wouldn't have the problem of Alliance humans dying, reanimating, and immediately fighting against their allies from a few seconds ago (and taking orders from their enemy from a few seconds ago) despite supposedly being free-willed.
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I think that "humans with a skin condition" (oh, Fojar), is taking it too far, but yeah, the basis would be some version of perverted Lordaeron that is actually Lordaeron. As in, these undead, while certainly traumatized and their spirits scarred, would not immediately forget their old allegiances, families, culture, etc.

And how? Frankly, there's a myriad of ways how to write that, ranging from what you suggested, Arthas becoming the king and transforming Lordaeron into this dark-light undead/human realm, to simple rewrites of The Frozen Throne's undead campaign.

-----

But we are getting quite off-topic here.
So yeah, this thread covers two:

1. How to handle Alliance Undead in a way that fits with what's been established about the Alliance and how it handles Undead.

2. Overall talking about ways to have escaped, non-Scourge, Undead in way better ways than what Blizzard has done.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:00 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
So yeah, this thread covers two:

1. How to handle Alliance Undead in a way that fits with what's been established about the Alliance and how it handles Undead.

2. Overall talking about ways to have escaped, non-Scourge, Undead in way better ways than what Blizzard has done.
1. Whew, that's a tough one. Given the light heavy thematic of the majority of the Alliance, I think it might work best if it's used to play up an internal duality. A divided lordaeron or resurgent alterac working alongside dark irons, opposed by the more light oriented stormwind, bronzebeards and such. With them being strongest when they work together. (Dark forces attacking and Light forces defending perhaps?)

2. I really feel overall that they should've been a neutral faction, not aligned directly to Alliance or Horde, but leaning towards Horde.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:11 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
what's been established about the Alliance and how it handles Undead.
This is a bit problematic for the premise of this topic, because a lot of what has been established about how the humans handle Undead has been done to justify the free-willed Undead in the Horde. The whole "they would not accept us" was invented for Vanilla.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
This is a bit problematic for the premise of this topic, because a lot of what was has been established about how the humans handle Undead has been done to justify the free-willed Undead in the Horde. The whole "they would not accept us" was invented for Vanilla.
Everything about it felt supremely arbitrary. Yes, the Light and its followers supposedly abhor undeath as an aberration to be purged (though we've seen examples to the contrary, such as the Argent Crusade) but for many of the living, those raised into undeath are relatives. It's silly that the majority of a surviving population would turn on their family simply because of their cursed state, even while many undead retain their previous identities.

It would not have been difficult at all to write the Alliance (humans specifically) as sympathetic towards the Forsaken; wary, but understanding of their plight. Even the Light, given that undeath is an anathema to it, could be used as a vehicle for compassion.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:46 AM
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No undead should be allowed in the Alliance.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:38 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Everything about it felt supremely arbitrary. Yes, the Light and its followers supposedly abhor undeath as an aberration to be purged (though we've seen examples to the contrary, such as the Argent Crusade) but for many of the living, those raised into undeath are relatives. It's silly that the majority of a surviving population would turn on their family simply because of their cursed state, even while many undead retain their previous identities.
It felt very forced indeed, especially if one remembers how certain things were written. For example, the paladins feeling horror and desparation at being unable to heal those damned by undeath, many living trying to reach to their now undead loved ones, etc.

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It would not have been difficult at all to write the Alliance (humans specifically) as sympathetic towards the Forsaken; wary, but understanding of their plight. Even the Light, given that undeath is an anathema to it, could be used as a vehicle for compassion.
It wouldn't have at all. One thing I could imagine to create an evident bridge, a group of priests and paladins so strong of conviction not unlike Sir Zeliek or Alonsus Faol (or these two being one of them even), going back to their old ideals after regaining free will, even using Light again, despite the pain it would cause them.

Ultimately, my reasoning here is simple. If there had had to be factions, I believe that the Undead would have fared far better in the Alliance, with no need to be antagonist to humanity, thus no need to hate their former loved ones, thus no need to hate the living, thus a possibility to go a different path than the one that would ultimately make them villains.

And really, the same goes for the Night Elves, who would have far more room to stay true to their original concept in the Horde, especially when one remembers concepts like this one, where the Night Elves had spirit (aka otem) animals (including the wolf), axes, small fangs;

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Old 09-09-2017, 11:51 AM
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Why did the elves let their women to do the fight?
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:09 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Slow, please take this topic to another thread instead of derailing this one. Preferably one in Lordaeron.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:23 PM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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There are Death Knights in the Alliance. They don't really stick out or feel out of place. And they meet all the criteria in the question, free-willed, escaped non-Scourge and the rest of it.

Undead could have been introduced in the Alliance in a similar fashion as the Death Knights were. Back in the pre-Cata days, new races had a "joining their faction" quest if I remember correctly, or at least the BC races had them. It wouldn't have been difficult to have something combining elements from those quests with the final Death Knight quest from Wrath.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
There are Death Knights in the Alliance. They don't really stick out or feel out of place. And they meet all the criteria in the question, free-willed, escaped non-Scourge and the rest of it.
They do, they exist simply because the game needs them to.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:45 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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In regards to the Light abhoring undeath? They could've easily indicated that most Lordaeron Paladins were eliminated, through Arthas murdering some and others converting to Death Knights. With most Lordaeron paladins out of the picture...
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Old 09-09-2017, 01:38 PM
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In regards to the Light abhoring undeath? They could've easily indicated that most Lordaeron Paladins were eliminated, through Arthas murdering some and others converting to Death Knights. With most Lordaeron paladins out of the picture...
it got little to do with the paladins.

I don't think any ordinary human with logical mind would allow undead to walk around, even if they were their loved ones. The right thing would be purge them and put them rest for peace.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:13 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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In regards to the Light abhoring undeath? They could've easily indicated that most Lordaeron Paladins were eliminated, through Arthas murdering some and others converting to Death Knights. With most Lordaeron paladins out of the picture...
Here's the thing we kind of discussed above. This does not have to be an issue at all. You don't have to write the Light believers as abhoring undead, you can even write it so that undead, through their willpower and conviction, can reconvene with the Light despite their condition. We are speaking pure hypotheticals here.

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I don't think any ordinary human with logical mind would allow undead to walk around, even if they were their loved ones. The right thing would be purge them and put them rest for peace.
Here's the problem with your line of logic. If we were to say that any ordinary human with logical mind would act like this, then we would have to say any ordinary living with logical mind would act like this, because if the problem is solely their condition and incompatibility with the world of the living, then it has to apply to all the living. In such a case, the undead couldn't be be part of any faction comprising living, hell they couldn't even interact in any significantly positive way with any living.

Now, if we were to say that this is a no-issue, then there would be no inherent reason for say an orc to be more accepting of an undead than say human. That moment, everything depends on the writing.
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Old 09-09-2017, 03:59 PM
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Here's the problem with your line of logic. If we were to say that any ordinary human with logical mind would act like this, then we would have to say any ordinary living with logical mind would act like this, because if the problem is solely their condition and incompatibility with the world of the living, then it has to apply to all the living. In such a case, the undead couldn't be be part of any faction comprising living, hell they couldn't even interact in any significantly positive way with any living.

Now, if we were to say that this is a no-issue, then there would be no inherent reason for say an orc to be more accepting of an undead than say human. That moment, everything depends on the writing.
EXACTLY! Even the Horde accepted them for pure political(if not game) reason. But compare to the humans, they were not former horde members. And due to some ambitious figures like Magatha, the pact was made. If the Forsaken were made of former orcs/taurens/trolls, that would have been different as well.

I don't think it's good while it is more logical than the Alliance accepting undead, especially Death Knights. I would prefer the Night Elves and the Undead form their own factions exactly like WC3.

Another thing with the Death Knights is that they use dark magic like necromancy, that was even forbidden in Dalaran, which was WHY Kel'Thuzad got kicked out from the council. Accepting them would be a mockery then. It might be ok to work with them against the Lich King, but accepting them to the Alliance? No thanks.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:08 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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EXACTLY! Even the Horde accepted them for pure political(if not game) reason. But compare to the humans, they were not former horde members. And due to some ambitious figures like Magatha, the pact was made. If the Forsaken were made of former orcs/taurens/trolls, that would have been different as well.

I don't think it's good while it is more logical than the Alliance accepting undead, especially Death Knights. I would prefer the Night Elves and the Undead form their own factions exactly like WC3.
It seems to me you have not grasped what I was trying to convey there at all.

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Another thing with the Death Knights is that they use dark magic like necromancy, that was even forbidden in Dalaran, which was WHY Kel'Thuzad got kicked out from the council. Accepting them would be a mockery then. It might be ok to work with them against the Lich King, but accepting them to the Alliance? No thanks.
Yes, and according to Warcraft III Manual, Thrall banned any use of Necromancy in the Horde. Times change.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:19 PM
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It seems to me you have not grasped what I was trying to convey there at all.
I oppose such thing at all, no living should ally with the undead, especially accepting them to the faction.

Temporary alliance? Maybe, other than that, no.


Quote:
Yes, and according to Warcraft III Manual, Thrall banned any use of Necromancy in the Horde. Times change.
Yes, so the undead should have been independent faction.

They could have worked with the livings sometimes, but overall not part of the living faction.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:27 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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That is all nice, but ultimately not on topic. This topic is about past hypotheticals and how could they have been made to work, not about what you like or would prefer.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:49 PM
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That is all nice, but ultimately not on topic. This topic is about past hypotheticals and how could they have been made to work, not about what you like or would prefer.
Well, the answer is that they don't work out storywise at all. It was simply for the game purpose.

You want it to work? Have a powerful spellcaster to use illusion magic disguise them as humans and let them join. This is probably the best I could think of.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:40 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
There are Death Knights in the Alliance. They don't really stick out or feel out of place. And they meet all the criteria in the question, free-willed, escaped non-Scourge and the rest of it.
The way they ended up quitting the Scourge was silly.

"Hurr I'm Arthas I'll not only try to get my strong and currently loyal Death Knights killed off but I'll gloat about doing it where they can surely hear me"

I know they needed to have playable Death Knights among the player factions but seriously.

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Old 09-10-2017, 06:39 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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The way they ended up quitting the Scourge was silly.

"Hurr I'm Arthas I'll not only try to get my strong and currently loyal Death Knights killed off but I'll gloat about doing it where they can surely hear me"

I know they needed to have playable Death Knights among the player factions but seriously.
To be fair it's silly that they suddenly gained free will anyway. How was it justified again? Lich King was sufficiently weakened by Tirion or what?
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:02 AM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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To be fair it's silly that they suddenly gained free will anyway. How was it justified again? Lich King was sufficiently weakened by Tirion or what?
I always took it that the 'miracle' of Light's Hope was so astounding that it blasted their minds with free-will.

Even so, I would have still been a Scourge loyalist. :\ My commander reveals to me - gasp! - that I'm an expendable part of his army! What, then? Does that mean the player DK's were okay with things up until then? Phew, that really says something...

On topic, I can't contribute much. But I would say that, had it continued along this thread of thought, the Forsaken's narrative would've stayed true to what people really enjoyed about them: Fallen nobility.
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:24 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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I always took it that the 'miracle' of Light's Hope was so astounding that it blasted their minds with free-will.

Even so, I would have still been a Scourge loyalist. :\ My commander reveals to me - gasp! - that I'm an expendable part of his army! What, then? Does that mean the player DK's were okay with things up until then? Phew, that really says something...

On topic, I can't contribute much. But I would say that, had it continued along this thread of thought, the Forsaken's narrative would've stayed true to what people really enjoyed about them: Fallen nobility.
It makes no sense, the Lich King could easily bring them back after death.
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:45 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Presumably they were set free by a combination of Tirion striking Arthas and the power unleashed from beneath Light's Hope weakening the Scourge's hold on them. As soon as Tirion emerges the lesser Scourge drop dead while Arthas and the DK's are just stunned and weakened, similar to what the chapel's power did to Kel'thuzad and his army in the Ashbringer comic. Arthas' grip on Darion in particular already seemed to be wavering as Mograine struggled to maintain control over the Ashbringer in the presence of all those Light-empowered spirits interred beneath the chapel grounds.

Though it could more specifically be some Scourge hierarchy-based thing, whereby only Mograine was directly released by the combination of Arthas being weakened by the chapel's souls and Tirion's attack, the Ashbringer having resisted him, and the exchange with his father's soul causing the Scourge's inherently top-down mind control of its troops to free them along with Darion when Arthas' hold on him broke. That could arguably explain why so many of the trainers and lesser undead up in Acherus were liberated as well instead of just the soldiers fighting on the ground, while the forces "on loan" from Naxxramas remained bound to Arthas and had to be driven out.

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Old 09-10-2017, 11:18 AM
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This remind me of something.

How does Lich King operate control overall? Since the undead were raised from the dead, their "will" should not be the same with their living self, it should be newborn undead which was created and modified by the Lich King to serve for the specific purpose. Even if it wasn't the case in the beginning, it should be after the betrayal of the Forsaken.
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Old 09-13-2017, 12:30 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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It looks like it varies depending on what the Undead in question is.

You have Death Knights, Liches, and Master Undead like Dar'khan who while a bit warped, maybe, do operate without as much micromanagement as the more bestial Undead.

Ghouls and Abominations are feral beasts who need to be directed.
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