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  #26  
Old 11-15-2006, 10:46 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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I guess this just goes to show you that the Alliance heroes from Beyond the Dark Portal were made of tougher stock than the Horde ones. Not one single hero from Beyond the Dark Portal on the Horde side is around to be the Horde's champion. Instead they get pathetic "children" of their old heroes.
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  #27  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:10 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
I guess this just goes to show you that the Alliance heroes from Beyond the Dark Portal were made of tougher stock than the Horde ones. Not one single hero from Beyond the Dark Portal on the Horde side is around to be the Horde's champion. Instead they get pathetic "children" of their old heroes.
Well technically the only hero around to be the Alliances champion is Danath.

As for the Horde side, a lot of the old heroes are around, its just the New Horde does not follow the same ideals as the Old Horde, thus we kill them instead of work with them.
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  #28  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:11 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScytheRexx
Well technically the only hero around to be the Alliances champion is Danath.

As for the Horde side, a lot of the old heroes are around, its just the New Horde does not follow the same ideals as the Old Horde, thus we kill them instead of work with them.
Khadgar, hello?
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  #29  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScytheRexx
I don't think they retconned the whole Kilrogg and Cho'galls failed attempt on Stormwind. Most likely now they will say that Blackhand stayed behind during the first invasion to keep an eye on the other clans while his master Gul'dan did most of the work, but when things got screwy he decided Blackhand would need to come in and crack some heads to bring order back to the Horde.

Thus Blackhand came through and created the Blackrock Clan to help cement his power on Azeroth.
I believe it said he was leader of the Blackrock Clan on Draenor now that I think about it.. which makes no fucking sense
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  #30  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:19 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
Khadgar, hello?
As I said,

"the only hero around to be the Alliances Champion is Danath."

Khadgar is a Naaru lover now and is no longer working for the Alliance in any form.
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  #31  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Originally Posted by ScytheRexx
Khadgar is a Naaru lover now and is no longer working for the Alliance in any form.
Woot! Now all we need is a model for him!
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:34 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScytheRexx
As I said,

"the only hero around to be the Alliances Champion is Danath."

Khadgar is a Naaru lover now and is no longer working for the Alliance in any form.
What I ment was, he IS an Alliance hero that is well respected amongst the faction and is LEGENDARY for his deeds in the First and Second Wars. He might be neutral now, but that's more than the Horde has. What does the Horde have, honestly? They are borrowing heroes from Azeroth to put on Draenor because the Horde has no one. It's just sad that the only Beyond the Dark Portal orc hero still around is a raid boss.
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:17 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
What I ment was, he IS an Alliance hero that is well respected amongst the faction and is LEGENDARY for his deeds in the First and Second Wars. He might be neutral now, but that's more than the Horde has. What does the Horde have, honestly? They are borrowing heroes from Azeroth to put on Draenor because the Horde has no one. It's just sad that the only Beyond the Dark Portal orc hero still around is a raid boss.
I think having Kargath as an enemy is just as good as having Khadgar as a neutral naaru lover. At least we get to see him.

Besides, having all these old heroes appear would cheapen what I feel is the image of the New Horde. The New Horde is not the Old Horde, they don't follow the same values which is why a lot of the old heroes are enemies, like Rend and Kargath. Grom and Thrall were the symbols of the Old Horde and the New Horde, and Grom dying to free his people was a sort of "passing the torch" if you will to the next generation of horde. I personally don't want anyone else to walk in an steal Grom's thunder, I would not trade Grom and his story for anyone, not even all five of the Alliance heroes combined.
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  #34  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:21 PM
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Not that it's my arguement, but if Kargath and Khadgar cancel eachother out we still have Danath. Not that Turalyon and Alleria aren't going to show up somewhere.

I don't get how all the Horde heroes could have gotten laid and left behind all these kids lying about everywhere in Outland.
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2006, 01:02 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timolas
Not that it's my arguement, but if Kargath and Khadgar cancel eachother out we still have Danath. Not that Turalyon and Alleria aren't going to show up somewhere.
We are still not sure if Turalyon or even Alleria will even be Alliance in the end. For all we know, we could find one of them corrupted and turned into a raid boss, who knows at this point.

I already admited Danath as the old-school Alliance champion, just saying that as of right now he is the only one, since all the others are either missing or neutral, and thus you can't call them anything close to Alliance champions, as that would mean they have to be with the Alliance as far as we know =P Danath is the only one that fits this bill as of now, unless you count Sky'ree.

As for all the Horde children, I am under the impression that when Durotan was banished, his mother gathered much of the children that would listen and ran away to Nagrand to hide from the Old Horde.
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2006, 01:02 PM
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Name one Alliance hero that has the appeal or level of depth and awesomeness of Grom sans Morgraine.

Edit: Seriously, what abotu the Tauren!? lol

Last edited by Rebirth; 11-15-2006 at 01:21 PM..
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  #37  
Old 11-15-2006, 02:03 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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The New Horde's heroes, save Thrall, are lackluster and don't represent the true might of the orcish warmachine. Hell, Thrall is about the only real hero they have now....

Edit: Well you have Cairne but he's really old and about to die anyway, and Vol'jin isn't exactly real hero material. You have Rexxar too, but he's content with wandering around aimlessly with his bear. Sylvanas? Yeah right, like she is a hero....

Last edited by Kenzuki; 11-15-2006 at 02:19 PM..
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  #38  
Old 11-15-2006, 02:22 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebirth
Name one Alliance hero that has the appeal or level of depth and awesomeness of Grom sans Morgraine.

Edit: Seriously, what abotu the Tauren!? lol
Uther Lightbringer
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  #39  
Old 11-15-2006, 02:38 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
The New Horde's heroes, save Thrall, are lackluster and don't represent the true might of the orcish warmachine. Hell, Thrall is about the only real hero they have now....
And the Alliance is overflowing with living heroes? I can only think of three members of the Alliance I would call anything close to heroes. Personally, I put them up there with Rexxar and Cairne in the hero department, just because one is old and one like to wander does not make them any less cool.

I don't see why you have to try and discredit them.
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  #40  
Old 11-15-2006, 02:42 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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I'm not trying to disrespect or discredit them by any means, I'm just saying that BOTH sides are lacking in the hero department, but the Alliance at least knows that it's heroes survived from past wars, the Horde doesn't have that to look forward to. Do you think anyone new to WoW is going to look at Kargath with pride and go "Hey, I remember playing him in Warcraft II!" No, because he's nothing like Kargath Bladefist and looks NOTHING like him.
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  #41  
Old 11-15-2006, 03:02 PM
Rebirth Rebirth is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
Uther Lightbringer
Got me there.

But, I was talking in WoW. Uther's dead my friend, dead and betrayed. WC3/TFT killed many of the beloved and the heroic, which leaves WoW almost heroeless and Blizzard has made you the hero, therefore there aren't any badass guys walking around anymore who control the story. Closest thing is Overlord Saurfang and the heads of all the races.

Now, if Blizz had handled the War of the Sands differently and made it so that a named hero rises (and not the one guy from that uber-guild on your server) that'd be a different story. Or even any kind of danger, there's endless possibilities, but WoW is not about them, sadly, its about you.

Maybe they'll chronicle it all in books and we'll have more heroes. Or maybe they'll have WarCraft side-stories akin to Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone on the consoles. Then we'd have our heroes again, then we'd know a new champion's name, we could even be the legends.
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  #42  
Old 11-15-2006, 03:24 PM
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Saurfang is overated I say! Bolvar is worthy of notice, he took on a chamber of powerful dragonkin elites on his own.
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  #43  
Old 11-15-2006, 05:09 PM
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What about those guys in Light Hope's Chapel? That warrior guy seemed badass...
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  #44  
Old 11-15-2006, 05:39 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebirth
What about those guys in Light Hope's Chapel? That warrior guy seemed badass...
He's some loser who just appeared, I don't know him.
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  #45  
Old 11-15-2006, 05:41 PM
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Well he talks mean. Let's hope Blizz gives most of these guys a back story eventually, so that everyone we encounter isn't just a pointless NPC without any relevance.
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  #46  
Old 11-15-2006, 05:48 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScytheRexx
As for the Horde side, a lot of the old heroes are around, its just the New Horde does not follow the same ideals as the Old Horde, thus we kill them instead of work with them.
Scythe is completely right here. The ideological changes that the Horde went through, not the fact that their heroes are somehow inferior, is responsible for the fact that none of them are present on the side of the Horde in Outland. Grom Hellscream's story was already continued in Warcraft III. Dentarg was loyal to Ner'Zhul, which means it's quite likely that he's currently some kind of badass undead ogre. We don't know where Teron Gorefiend is, but he definetly wouldn't have anything to do with the new Horde. Neither would Deathwing, who, incidentally, is " of tougher stock" than even Khadgar.

Kargath Bladefist is the exception here. Apparently, I didn't make this clear enough that he is not at all ideologically incompatible with the New Horde. In the old lore, he and Killrogg Deadeye were freed from internment on Azeroth by Thrall, and pledged their alleigance to the New Horde. This has since been retconned, but the fact that Thrall has named three places after him (Bladefist Bay in Durotar, Kargathia Keep in Ashenvale, and Kargath Outpost in the Badlands) makes it clear that he is respected by the New Horde. In an earlier post, somebody paired Kargath with Rend Blackhand. A more appropriate comparison would be to Doomhammer or Hellscream: orcish leaders who came to power in the demon-cursed old horde, but genuinely wanted to forge a better destiny for their people. He ended up on Outland instead of Azeroth, and like Grom, fell prey once more to bloodlust. But unlike Grom, he did not have Thrall's shamans to restore him to his senses. Kargath Bladefist is more of a tragic figure than a simple villain.

Regarding the alliance heroes, isn't Kudran Wildhammer present in Shadowmoon Valley? And if not, do we know anything about where he is? Lastly, while Alleria and Kudran will most likely follow Danath's example and stay with the Alliance, I don't think we can say the same thing about Turaylon. If he is Mograine's son, which is both likely and logical, then he will probably be more involved in the new Silver Hand, which is now working with the Argent Dawn than the Alliance.
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  #47  
Old 11-15-2006, 05:57 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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The Silver Hand is IN the Alliance, it is not an neutral organization. The Silver Hand doesn't even like the Argent Dawn that much. The Silver Hand is a part of the Church of Light, they won't just split off now because they have a new leader. Like Uther before him, Tirion must ultimately answer to the Archbishop.
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  #48  
Old 11-15-2006, 06:09 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Human and Dwarven player paladins are adressed as "Knights of the Silver Hand," so I suppose it's fair to assume that the remnants of the Alliance paladins still go by this name.

Tirion's new order is something different. Although it's also called the Silver Hand, he was cast out of the old Silver Hand for sympathizing with the Horde. Tirion's not part of the Argent Dawn, but he certainly shares aspects of their philosophy, namely that the conflict between the Horde and the Alliance is petty compared to the world's real dangers. In World of Warcraft, he offers his quests to both Alliance and Horde players, and I don't think this can be dismissed as simply game mechanics because Tirion's own backstory suggests that he is open-minded as far as the Horde is concerned.

So pretty much, there are two distinct organizations currently under the name of "The Silver Hand." Turaylon could theoretically join either one. But if he is Mograine's son, I think it's more likely that he will join Tirion.
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  #49  
Old 11-15-2006, 06:50 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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All the RPG books say that the Silver Hand still exists, just without a leader and they owe their alligience to the Church of Light. So I doubt they will become neutral.
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  #50  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:11 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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In game terms, that's referring to the player and NPC paladins of Stormwind and Ironforge. Tirion's New Silver Hand already is neutral.
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