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Old 03-24-2010, 11:48 AM
Slowpokeking
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Default Will you guys think about "bad story" when your favorite characters got owned?

Kael. Well, I like this character in WC3 because he's a very tragic hero, didn't lose his good heart or commited terrible crime like Arthas and Illidan. He was just trying to find a way to cure his people and willing to do anything. But in BC we all know he completely became a mana hungry monster and pupet of the Burning Legion, even betrayed his own people. It feels like they destroyed this character simply for raid reason. Till today I still think so.

Sylvanas. Well yes, I am her HUGE fan but I really just take her as a really really good character that's all. Firstly the Wrathgate event, she lost much power, well that's ok for me. Then, they changed her voice to some weak old lady, that really sucks. At last, the nightmare, well I know pretty much nobody except Mal'furion really kick ass in the novel but she shouldn't be thay weak. When I'm reading it I really hope I can see her conquer her fear and break that nightmare by herself rather than "helplessly shriek" in that stupid dream. That's the Banshee Queen I know.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:18 PM
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Depends. Lothar is one of my favorite characters, for instance. I did not think his duel with Orgrim was a "bad story" just because he died during it. I DO dislike the retcon as it is part of Blizz's effort to whitewash the Horde's history, especially Orgrim. It was really poignant to me that Lothar was so just, so badass, so utterly dedicated to protecting his people that even the greatest warrior of the Horde couldn't best him unless he cheated- and it also showed the Horde was not above underhanded tactics. By making Orgrim a less "black" character, I feel, it cheapens the significance of the scene.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:27 PM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Depends. Lothar is one of my favorite characters, for instance. I did not think his duel with Orgrim was a "bad story" just because he died during it. I DO dislike the retcon as it is part of Blizz's effort to whitewash the Horde's history, especially Orgrim. It was really poignant to me that Lothar was so just, so badass, so utterly dedicated to protecting his people that even the greatest warrior of the Horde couldn't best him unless he cheated- and it also showed the Horde was not above underhanded tactics. By making Orgrim a less "black" character, I feel, it cheapens the significance of the scene.
Agreed.

Also, story progression in kaels case isnt necessarily bad story telling just because you dont like it. It already showed us in WC3 he makes bad decisions (teaming up with the naga, accepting Illidans source of magic) in desperate situations. I dont think it was terribly out of character for him to get a hold of something with good intentions and then be terribly corrupted by it, like a drug tends to do, losing sight of his original intentions.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:28 PM
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I also like that ambush version better. I think it fit the Old Horde's way and Doomhammer's persona better.

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Agreed.

Also, story progression in kaels case isnt necessarily bad story telling just because you dont like it. It already showed us in WC3 he makes bad decisions (teaming up with the naga, accepting Illidans source of magic) in desperate situations. I dont think it was terribly out of character for him to get a hold of something with good intentions and then be terribly corrupted by it, like a drug tends to do, losing sight of his original intentions.
Well that is bad choice but also his only choice. We argued about that before in other posts I remember. He also got the solution but didn't use it. The MGT Kael is really unacceptable, I think that demon priestess twisted his mind when saving him by put that green stone.

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Old 03-24-2010, 01:09 PM
Kembei Kembei is offline

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Because of World of Warcraft, Kael becomes a Raid boss. I wonder if instead we were playing World of Warcraft we were playing Warcraft 4, the character of Kael had ended in this way... as Illidan´s fate... I think it would be better some Malfurion vs. Illidan confrontation at the end, and Tyrande knew about his death.

Well... it´s Warcraft, "good" or "bad history" Blizzard do what they want with their franchise. For me WoW is full of "bad histories" (I hate how they treated the story of Zul´jin in that game). I miss the days when Warcraft had really impressive stories, not the forced arguments in the mmorpg game.
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Well that is bad choice but also his only choice. We argued about that before in other posts I remember. He also got the solution but didn't use it. The MGT Kael is really unacceptable, I think that demon priestess twisted his mind when saving him by put that green stone.
You think its unacceptable? Have you ever known a real life drug addict? Its really not that far fetched for someone to become that twisted by the object of their addiction they are willing to do terrible things.

As long as its getting him high.
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:37 PM
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You think its unacceptable? Have you ever known a real life drug addict? Its really not that far fetched for someone to become that twisted by the object of their addiction they are willing to do terrible things.

As long as its getting him high.
If you say addiction, all the highbornes or former highbornes(high elf, naga) got it since the time of WoE. The Sunwell just gave them a source, like that demon in Dire Maul. But we didn't see the high elves or most of the Dire Maul highbornes got totally twisted. In truth they are like human society, got villians like Dar'khan and heroes like Ranger General Sylvanas, Alleria and the WC3 Kael.
Illidan is a dangerous person, but his persona didn't change after he consume those huge fel magic from the Skull of Gul'dan and became a demon.
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Old 03-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Kael was doomed from the moment he sided with Illidan (and thus the Legion). Kael found demonic magics as a potential source of arcane, and allowed his addiction to take hold to a ludicrus level (as seen in Fara-- er... Netherstorm). Kil'jaeden, who saw promise in Kael at the Black Citadel in TFT, was also a good hint of the path Kael had been set on. So five years pass from that moment, and it's actually quite logical that Kael followed the path he did... even if I loathed the notion we killed him.

Illidan going insane was an agitating storyline as well, but that was caused by isolation and refusal to accept reality... one can see how that eats at a person's subconsious. Not to mention the effects of the skull of Gul'dan. I mean, look what it did to Ner'zhul.

(...and don't get me started on Zul'jin. Raiders are heartless bastards who murdered an old cripple for lewtz)

Now the Shen'dralar and their Prince Tortheldrin... to suggest that they aren't starting to lose it due to their addiction to the demon's magic supply is just silly. I believe the quest in DM-W you pick up indicated that the Prince actually killed dozens of his own people to maintain the magic and immortality of the few. When the demon dies, the prince goes balistic, as he just lost his source of quenching his thirst and tries to kill you... that is NOT rational behaviour
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Old 03-24-2010, 02:47 PM
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Kael was doomed from the moment he sided with Illidan (and thus the Legion). Kael found demonic magics as a potential source of arcane, and allowed his addiction to take hold to a ludicrus level (as seen in Fara-- er... Netherstorm). Kil'jaeden, who saw promise in Kael at the Black Citadel in TFT, was also a good hint of the path Kael had been set on. So five years pass from that moment, and it's actually quite logical that Kael followed the path he did... even if I loathed the notion we killed him.

Illidan going insane was an agitating storyline as well, but that was caused by isolation and refusal to accept reality... one can see how that eats at a person's subconsious. Not to mention the effects of the skull of Gul'dan. I mean, look what it did to Ner'zhul.

(...and don't get me started on Zul'jin. Raiders are heartless bastards who murdered an old cripple for lewtz)

Now the Shen'dralar and their Prince Tortheldrin... to suggest that they aren't starting to lose it due to their addiction to the demon's magic supply is just silly. I believe the quest in DM-W you pick up indicated that the Prince actually killed one of his own people in order to sap magic from them or something along that line. (I'll have to Wowhead the quest to refresh my memory) When the demon dies, the prince goes balistic, as he just lost his source of quenching his thirst and tries to kill you... that is NOT rational behaviour
No, remember the 2.4 video? Kael tasted fel power during Tempest Keep, not when he sided with Illidan, also, almost all demon hunters need to drain power from demon but many of them didn't go mad. Most importantly, Kael got what could save him and his people from this thirsty of magic, but he didn't use it I just don't know why.

Iliidan went crazy because he suffered defeat in ICC. Not because he's a demon.

Yes Tortheldrin was mad, but we didn't know his orginial personality, and most of the Shen'dralar didn't go mad after drain a demon for thousands of years, they even rejoined the night elves. So it's safe to say the prince was bastard from the beginning. Why Kael simply changed completely after a few years?
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:02 PM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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No, remember the 2.4 video? Kael tasted fel power during Tempest Keep, not when he sided with Illidan, also, almost all demon hunters need to drain power from demon but many of them didn't go mad. Most importantly, Kael got what could save him and his people from this thirsty of magic, but he didn't use it I just don't know why.

Iliidan went crazy because he suffered defeat in ICC. Not because he's a demon.

Yes Tortheldrin was mad, but we didn't know his orginial personality, and most of the Shen'dralar didn't go mad after drain a demon for thousands of years, they even rejoined the night elves. So it's safe to say the prince was bastard from the beginning. Why Kael simply changed completely after a few years?
Ok... so Kael did not take in fel energies with Illidan in the 2.4 video. Wow, I must be on drugs or something because I clearly remember him and Illidan siphoning energy from a shackled terrorguard. Kael had demonic energy and those who sided with him were given easy access to blood crystals, to demons, to everything... he even sent M'uru to Silvermoon for his people to indulge on. As long as the people were loyal to HIM (and by extension, the Legion at this point) they were given the power to sate their lust for magic.

Perhaps you ignored what I just said about Illidan... which was yes, Arthas beat him and YES that led him onto a downward spiral into insanity. B-b-but! the Skull of Gul'dan, the item that made him a demon, did contribute. Throughout BtDP you see the skull speaking to and corrupting Ner'zhul. It is safe to say it did the same to Illidan, judging by his kneeling pose which stares into the skull. (They should write something based around Illidan and his rise and fall during the events after the War of the Ancients.)

If you talk to the Shen'dralar you'll see they are obsessed with literature, and I mean dangerously, as it's all they pay attention to aside from Immol'thar and it's been that way for thousands of years. Odds are they are all at least slightly 'addled'... and the fact they don't seem to care about those the prince had massacred and turned into energy to feast upon, I think, adds to my point.
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:13 PM
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Ok... so Kael did not take in fel energies with Illidan in the 2.4 video. Wow, I must be on drugs or something because I clearly remember him and Illidan siphoning energy from a shackled terrorguard. Kael had demonic energy and those who sided with him were given easy access to blood crystals, to demons, to everything... he even sent M'uru to Silvermoon for his people to indulge on. As long as the people were loyal to HIM (and by extension, the Legion at this point) they were given the power to sate their lust for magic.

Perhaps you ignored what I just said about Illidan... which was yes, Arthas beat him and YES that led him onto a downward spiral into insanity. B-b-but! the Skull of Gul'dan, the item that made him a demon, did contribute. Throughout BtDP you see the skull speaking to and corrupting Ner'zhul. It is safe to say it did the same to Illidan, judging by his kneeling pose which stares into the skull. (They should write something based around Illidan and his rise and fall during the events after the War of the Ancients.)

If you talk to the Shen'dralar you'll see they are obsessed with literature, and I mean dangerously, as it's all they pay attention to aside from Immol'thar and it's been that way for thousands of years. Odds are they are all at least slightly 'addled'... and the fact they don't seem to care about those the prince had massacred and turned into energy to feast upon, I think, adds to my point.
"Still, at least one demon has thus far maintained much of his original personality: Illidan Stormrage."

Illidan taught him about drain magic from others.

"But Illidan's agenda was short-sighted. I grew impatient. In secret, I began harvesting what energies I could. I had a brief taste of TRUE power...before it was taken from me!"

He was draining something in Tempest Keep during these lines in the video. So it's safe to say, he tasted the fel energy at that time.

Well as for the Shen'dralar, they couldn't resist the prince, the quest said something about Immol'thar gave him huge power and immortality, it'll be foolish to deal with him with the cost of that magic source, that's why you need to kill it first during the quest.


Finally, the Muru thing is what got me confused, he got something far better than Muru, could solve all the blood elves' magic addiction, but he didn't use it. I just can't find an explanation.

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Old 03-24-2010, 04:00 PM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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"Still, at least one demon has thus far maintained much of his original personality: Illidan Stormrage."

Illidan taught him about drain magic from others.

"But Illidan's agenda was short-sighted. I grew impatient. In secret, I began harvesting what energies I could. I had a brief taste of TRUE power...before it was taken from me!"

He was draining something in Tempest Keep during these lines in the video. So it's safe to say, he tasted the fel energy at that time.

Well as for the Shen'dralar, they couldn't resist the prince, the quest said something about Immol'thar gave him huge power and immortality, it'll be foolish to deal with him with the cost of that magic source, that's why you need to kill it first during the quest.


Finally, the Muru thing is what got me confused, he got something far better than Muru, could solve all the blood elves' magic addiction, but he didn't use it. I just can't find an explanation.

You drive me insane, you know that

Now back on topic... Illidan did teach Kael, and I NEVER denied that. Kael learned to siphon mage from Illidan, but what he was siphoning in that trailer was a demon. Now when he absorbs the mana and increases in size in Tempest Keep, that is not demonic/fel energy. I've been farming that raid for weeks after A'lar, so I'd recognize a distinct LACK of demonic presense within the tower aside from some engineers. What Kael was drawing in at that moment appears to be the same energy that has been gathered en masse from the Mana Forges. If you absorb too much demonic energy you are changed, as seen in Kael's felblood elves, or Illidan. The demonic crystal lodged in Kael's chest, which is believed to have kept him alive and functioning, is what altered his appearance into the gaunt wretched.

Back to Illidan. He did retain his own mind and personality, and I am not denying that. Why you keep insisting otherwise just confuses me. Illidan did go insane, however, and I am merely saying that it wasn't solely his defeat against Arthas, but also the presence of the Skull of Gul'dan which is known to drive it's wielder off the deep end ala Ner'zhul.
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:08 PM
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You drive me insane, you know that

Now back on topic... Illidan did teach Kael, and I NEVER denied that. Kael learned to siphon mage from Illidan, but what he was siphoning in that trailer was a demon. Now when he absorbs the mana and increases in size in Tempest Keep, that is not demonic/fel energy. I've been farming that raid for weeks after A'lar, so I'd recognize a distinct LACK of demonic presense within the tower aside from some engineers. What Kael was drawing in at that moment appears to be the same energy that has been gathered en masse from the Mana Forges. If you absorb too much demonic energy you are changed, as seen in Kael's felblood elves, or Illidan. The demonic crystal lodged in Kael's chest, which is believed to have kept him alive and functioning, is what altered his appearance into the gaunt wretched.

Back to Illidan. He did retain his own mind and personality, and I am not denying that. Why you keep insisting otherwise just confuses me. Illidan did go insane, however, and I am merely saying that it wasn't solely his defeat against Arthas, but also the presence of the Skull of Gul'dan which is known to drive it's wielder off the deep end ala Ner'zhul.
"In secret, I began harvesting what energies I could."
I'm pretty sure that "TRUE POWER" is the power of the legion since it's quickly taken away after a brief taste. Later he mentioned about "all is not lost" and summon his master.

Illidan is already a dangerous person before, but even with the skull's power didn't change him much. And Kael never became anything close to a demon before MGT, why did he change so greatly, dare to make an ally with the legion?

And can you give some explanation about he didn't use what could save all the blood elves from the addiction? Looks like Kael got other choices, if he choose to do that, that's pretty much "everybody wins".
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:31 PM
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"In secret, I began harvesting what energies I could."
I'm pretty sure that "TRUE POWER" is the power of the legion since it's quickly taken away after a brief taste. Later he mentioned about "all is not lost" and summon his master.

Illidan is already a dangerous person before, but even with the skull's power didn't change him much. And Kael never became anything close to a demon before MGT, why did he change so greatly, dare to make an ally with the legion?

And can you give some explanation about he didn't use what could save all the blood elves from the addiction? Looks like Kael got other choices, if he choose to do that, that's pretty much "everybody wins".
Ok, I assumed it was pretty obvious that when Kael indicates he was harvesting energy, he meant the mana forges in Netherstorm. He literally repurposed Naaru technology to seize all available mana in the region. Having gathered much of it, with the help of the Legion as seen at Manaforge Ara.

Kael only had a brief taste, I believe, because he was finally successful at harvesting all the power in what was Farahlon... and then the adventurers destroyed the forges and nearly killed him and severed his connection to the power. He took the remaining power to bring Kil'Jaeden into Azeroth because he likely promised the cure Kael wanted, but also a great deal more power.

Why did Kael become a wretched like he did? Well, I believe in one of two explanations. One, he was practically dead and is now only kept alive through the green crystal lodged in his chest... and that the fel magic has tainted his body. The second explanation I have is that after absorbing a massive amount of magical energy, being deprived of all of that energy is enough to shatter his physical being and turn him into a wretched. First explanation is legion's doing, the second is his own.

Ok, once more to Illidan. He became half-demon after absorbing the skull's power... that's a large change. He still thirsted for more power and he still retained his personality (I never denied that, damnit!) but became a different being physically. The change in WCIII reflecting this was his shift from melee to chaos damage, and that's ignoring the fact he pretty much turned into a saytr.

Now could you elaborate on what Kael'thas "Had" that could lead to a "everybody wins" situation?
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:31 PM
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I believe one of the more recent books, maybe BtDP, mentions that being in possession of the Skull of Gul'dan causes whispers into one's mind like Frostmourne or an old god. It's pretty obvious that consuming gul'dan's noggin made Illidan go nutso.
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:38 PM
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Correct. Gul'dan's skull affected Ner'zhul and effectively shredded his humility throughout the BtDP novel.
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:40 PM
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Ok, I assumed it was pretty obvious that when Kael indicates he was harvesting energy, he meant the mana forges in Netherstorm. He literally repurposed Naaru technology to seize all available mana in the region. Having gathered much of it, with the help of the Legion as seen at Manaforge Ara.

Kael only had a brief taste, I believe, because he was finally successful at harvesting all the power in what was Farahlon... and then the adventurers destroyed the forges and nearly killed him and severed his connection to the power. He took the remaining power to bring Kil'Jaeden into Azeroth because he likely promised the cure Kael wanted, but also a great deal more power.

Why did Kael become a wretched like he did? Well, I believe in one of two explanations. One, he was practically dead and is now only kept alive through the green crystal lodged in his chest... and that the fel magic has tainted his body. The second explanation I have is that after absorbing a massive amount of magical energy, being deprived of all of that energy is enough to shatter his physical being and turn him into a wretched. First explanation is legion's doing, the second is his own.

Ok, once more to Illidan. He became half-demon after absorbing the skull's power... that's a large change. He still thirsted for more power and he still retained his personality (I never denied that, damnit!) but became a different being physically. The change in WCIII reflecting this was his shift from melee to chaos damage, and that's ignoring the fact he pretty much turned into a saytr.

Now could you elaborate on what Kael'thas "Had" that could lead to a "everybody wins" situation?
I'll look at the video for more information.

He was channeling a magic power with dark color, I'm sure it's fel magic.

Unlike what happened to Ner'zhul, if you remember, Illidan absorbed most of its power and gained Gul'dan's memory of it, that pretty much means his soul was consumed by Illidan himself.

Yes he got another choice, he didn't need to harvest those mana forge, or ally with the demons, and solve all of his people's hunger of magic with what he got.

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Old 03-24-2010, 04:53 PM
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I'll look at the video for more information.

Unlike what happened to Ner'zhul, if you remember, Illidan absorbed most of its power and gained Gul'dan's memory of it, that pretty much means his soul was consumed by Illidan himself.

Yes he got another choice, he didn't need to harvest those mana forge, or ally with the demons, and solve all of his people's hunger of magic with what he got.
Watching the trailer for patch 2.4 is one thing... experiencing Netherstorm's quests, and the fight with Kael first-hand is another.

As to the color of the magic channelled into Kael; it's the same purple-ish colour you see througout the skies of Netherstorm and channeling into the manaforges.

If Gul'dan's soul was completely absorbed by Illidan, why does he keep it on his person? Why does he constantly stare into it? If it was merely a useless trinket, it would've been discarded. Illidan is not really into sentimentality, if it doesn't involve Tyrande.
Now, having seen a precedent case where the skull of Gul'dan whispered to Ner'zhul... it is far from a stretch to assume the same thing didn't happen to Illidan. By the time the Black Temple was attacked, he was ruthless, arrogant and domineering... all of these personality traits he showed by the time he was attacked in BT were seen in Ner'zhul by the time he walked through the portal in BtDP.

Now what did Kael have to save his people with? Without the demons or the forges, Kael had nothing he could really use to liberate his people. Hell, Illidan never promised a cure; just a way to sate the lust temporarily.

(I am posting a lot today, aren't I?)
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:59 PM
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Watching the trailer for patch 2.4 is one thing... experiencing Netherstorm's quests, and the fight with Kael first-hand is another.

If Gul'dan's soul was completely absorbed by Illidan, why does he keep it on his person? Why does he constantly stare into it? If it was merely a useless trinket, it would've been discarded. Illidan is not really into sentimentality, if it doesn't involve Tyrande.
Now, having seen a precedent case where the skull of Gul'dan whispered to Ner'zhul... it is far from a stretch to assume the same thing didn't happen to Illidan. By the time the Black Temple was attacked, he was ruthless, arrogant and domineering... all of these personality traits he showed by the time he was attacked in BT were seen in Ner'zhul by the time he walked through the portal in BtDP.

Now what did Kael have to save his people with? Without the demons or the forges, Kael had nothing he could really use to liberate his people. Hell, Illidan never promised a cure; just a way to sate the lust temporarily.

(I am posting a lot today, aren't I?)
We didn't see Illidan change much. Well let's stop this topic for now, I'll try to find more information

Yes Kael got the perfect solution for him and his people.
Think about what was Vashj's naga really doing? And think about the Hyjal attunement. What source gave his people energy for thousands of years and how was that source created?

The vial of eternity! His anestor used one to create the Sunwell! Now he got one vial, with all those blood elf mages' help, restore or create a new Sunwell will perfectly solve all his people's hunger and rebuild the magical barrier of Silvermoon City, and they wouldn't need to drain magic from any other creatures. Also, Muru could be released!

Last edited by Slowpokeking; 03-24-2010 at 05:02 PM..
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:13 PM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Ah. Do we know how many vials it took for Dath'remar to create the sunwell? I believe Illidan used three to create what became the new well under Nordrassil.

The naga storyline in TBC is one that was very vague near the endgame, but she was loyal to Illidan and only seemed to want to control the water supply in Outland. Though the wording of her intro speech that relates to her and her servants as the highbourne does raise a brow, I suppose.

What I'm saying is that Kael may not have had enough to create a new well and restore his people.
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:21 PM
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Thinking ahead, they contrived to steal one of the magical vials that had been confiscated from Illidan.

Using the vial they had stolen, the high elves created the Sunwell, a fountain of magical energy that was weaker than the first and second Wells.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...opedia/363.xml

Only one vial, and that's what Kael got with him. Also, I think all his people, the blood elves would agree to help their prince to restore or simply create a new well. They got a bunch of good spellcasters, shouldn't be a problem to restore/create a new one. Also with the well, other people won't hate or fear them since the elves won't need to drain magic from them anymore. It's fair to say "Everybody Wins".

I'm not a fan of Illidan but must say he kept his promise and gave Kael what he most needed for his people.
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:29 PM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Alright. To that point I can concede...

Why didn't Kael do it, though... well, at first I believe it is because he had joined the Illidari and since he was committing his people to an exodus leading to Outland. Later on his devotion shifted to the Legion, and by that time he had lost the vial.

Only theories, obviously, as Blizzard hasn't entirely given us all of their character's psychological profiles
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:37 PM
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I think Illidan won't come to Tempest Keep to simply give him the vial, he should got the vial before took Tempest Keep and ally with the legion. He also got no problem coming back since he was able to send Rommath and captured Muru back.

Honestly, I think Blizzard forgot about that, but maybe not since the nagas were draining water, looks like they were trying to create a small WoE by using Va'shj's vial. Or they just want to create a huge "swimming pool" to live?
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:39 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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When he tasted the power of the Twisting Nether in it's most pure form, Kael didn't want another Sunwell. It's like moving from weed to heroin, and then trying to just go back to just weed.

Like the Blood Elves would say all through BC, Kael said that Outland was the "Promised Land" in which magic was so saturated that one could simply "reach out and take it".
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:51 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Kael was so hooked he was one step down from being Tyrone.

"We let you stay with us after you lost your home, and went we left for a weekend you sold it to buy $250,000 worth of crack!"
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