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  #176  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:25 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I just want to see her face her fear, do something rather than shriek. Not about beat Xavius, the nightmare lord, just at least try to conquer her own fear. Unlike Mal'furion/Yesera was imprisoned by the nightmare lord himself or heavily took care of, these leaders were mostly caught by their own fear.

I really don't know what happened to Bolvar, the new Lich King, maybe he wasn't affected.
Except that's her fear. The helplessness itself and inability to fight back. She fears not being able to stand up to and overcome those things. She's not even as afraid of facing the Lich King as she is of not being able to resist him when she does.

Wishing she'd overcome that during the dream itself is like wishing that a character overcame a nightmare about falling from a great height by not falling during that dream at all. It would mean just not having the nightmare in the first place.
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  #177  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:29 PM
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Except that's her fear. The helplessness itself and inability to fight back. Her fear is not being able to stand up to those things. She's not even as afraid of facing the Lich King as she is of not being able to resist him when she does.

It's like wishing that a character overcame a nightmare about falling from a great height by not falling in the first place. It would mean just not having the nightmare in the first place.
Because that's not normal nightmares, it's something magical, their fear is used by Xavius to trap them in. If they can try to fight their fear, the nightmare could be different. Do you remember Tyrande was trapped in ED about all those Azshara images, tried to turn her into a naga? It's not much different than the nightmare those heroes suffered. When she thought about Mal'furion and called her goddess for help, those illusions just went off.

What I want to see is she and other heroes could try to face their fear and try to beat it. Like in real life we all try to conquer our fear and won a few times. We all have something that we once feared but not anymore right?

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  #178  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:41 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Because that's not normal nightmares, it's something magical, their fear is used by Xavius to trap them in. If they can try to fight their fear, the nightmare could be different. Do you remember Tyrande was trapped in ED about all those Azshara images, tried to turn her into a naga? It's not much different than the nightmare those heroes suffered. When she thought about Mal'furion and called her goddess for help, those illusions just went off.
Yes, but the fact of the matter is, the Forsaken and their queen are possessed by a crippling weakness when it comes to fear. That weakness is that they think it can't affect them. Anyone who believes themselves immune to fear is ultimately overcompensating for a massive fear that they refuse to acknowledge.

Tyrande's got no illusions about her own fears because she's been living with them for over ten thousand years. She's afraid of making the wrong choices, and she's afraid of losing Malfurion. That's why she calls upon her goddess to aid her, as she's not convinced that she can simply cast aside that fear by herself.

If anything, Sylvanas is more susceptible to her fears because like most Forsaken, she doesn't acknowledge them. She and her people think they've "outgrown" their fears as a result of their undeath, and thus when faced with those fears they're poorly equipped to handle them. Just look at her reaction to the pendant players find in the Ghostlands; first denial, followed by a powerful emotional reaction. Like fear, the Forsaken think sentiment and emotion are beneath them, and so when faced with such things they have even greater trouble controlling their reactions than the living do. The Forsaken may be immune to the primal, visceral terror that the living experience from being startled or witnessing traumatic events, but the ultimately more damaging kinds of fear that can cause indecision and self-doubt are even more potent for them due to their refusal to recognize it in themselves.

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What I want to see is she and other heroes could try to face their fear and try to beat it. Like in real life we all try to conquer our fear and won a few times. We all have something that we once feared but not anymore right?
Except it's not real life, in more ways than one. Just like in the real world, the Azerothians don't have any more control over their dreams than we do. If they were awake they likely could overcome those fears, but in their dreams they aren't even conscious, and have to just sit there taking whatever gets thrown at them, just like when anyone is asleep.

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  #179  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:53 PM
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Yes, but the fact of the matter is, the Forsaken and their queen are possessed by a crippling weakness when it comes to fear. That weakness is that they think it can't affect them. Anyone who believes themselves immune to fear is ultimately overcompensating for a massive fear that they refuse to acknowledge.

Tyrande's got no illusions about her own fears because she's been living with them for over ten thousand years. She's afraid of making the wrong choices, and she's afraid of losing Malfurion. That's why she calls upon her goddess to aid her, as she's not convinced that she can simply cast aside that fear by herself.

If anything, Sylvanas is more susceptible to her fears because like most Forsaken, she doesn't acknowledge them. She and her people think they've "outgrown" their fears as a result of their undeath, and thus when faced with those fears they're poorly equipped to handle them. Just look at her reaction to the pendant players find in the Ghostlands; first denial, followed by a powerful emotional reaction. Like fear, the Forsaken think sentiment and emotion are beneath them, and so when faced with such things they have even greater trouble controlling their reactions than the living do. The Forsaken may be immune to the primal, visceral terror that the living experience from being startled or witnessing traumatic events, but the ultimately more damaging kinds of fear that can cause indecision and self-doubt are even more potent for them due to their refusal to recognize it in themselves.
Sorry but I must disagree about Tyrande, in the first chapter, she clearly was still afraid about that captured experience in WotA(Well I don't think she should, but she did in the book) and feared about become someone like Azshara(mentioned a few times in the book), that's why the nightmare let her see that.

The Forsaken could be baffled when firstly face their hidden fear, but they still should be able to face it after seeing it, their will is stronger than other mortals since they really suffered a lot and be able to break even the Lich King's control and live in their own way. We must remember they suffered far more most of the living creatures did, their survival is already proved their toughness. Yes Sylvanas was sad when she got that pendant, but who won't after suffered so much and in this cursed form? After that song she was still able to regain her toughness and continue her revenge. Yes she still got love for her people and her family, but she was able to put those emotions away, don't let them affect her too much because she must be tough if she wants to live in this world.

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  #180  
Old 03-28-2010, 06:11 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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The Forsaken could be baffled when firstly face their hidden fear, but they still should be able to face it after seeing it
Sorry that canon disagrees with your personal opinion of the emo zombies.
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  #181  
Old 03-28-2010, 06:18 PM
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Sorry that canon disagrees with your personal opinion of the emo zombies.
If they were so afraid of their living brethrens and the Scourge, how come they could fight against them? Especially Sylvanas’ forces were at the forefront of the Horde’s assault on Northrend..
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  #182  
Old 03-28-2010, 06:24 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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...did you seriously just ask that question?

People fight what they're afraid of all the damn time.

The whole point of the Nightmare however, is that it's practically impossible to fight back.
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  #183  
Old 03-28-2010, 06:28 PM
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...did you seriously just ask that question?

People fight what they're afraid of all the damn time.

The whole point of the Nightmare however, is that it's practically impossible to fight back.
Are you saying: they were facing their worst fear?

No, I gave that Tyrande case before, not too different than the nightmare, that little Mal'furion imaged in her mind encouraged her to fight back.
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  #184  
Old 03-28-2010, 06:31 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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Sorry that Tyrande has a stronger force of will than the Forsaken?
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  #185  
Old 03-28-2010, 06:37 PM
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Sorry that Tyrande has a stronger force of will than the Forsaken?
I posted before, she even still afraid of that capture that happened 10000 years ago, still got "a little" fear of the saytrs because of that, and she never felt comfortable of leading her people after 10000 years.

I found something funny. I don't like Knaak's portrayal on this character(especially the uncomfortable part) but I need to use it to support me. Well buddy you can piss that off if you don't like it.

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  #186  
Old 03-28-2010, 10:12 PM
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Sorry but I must disagree about Tyrande, in the first chapter, she clearly was still afraid about that captured experience in WotA(Well I don't think she should, but she did in the book) and feared about become someone like Azshara(mentioned a few times in the book), that's why the nightmare let her see that.
That was my point...Tyrande is afraid of things, and she knows it. Her not wishing to be addressed by the lofty titles often used by those around her is proof enough that she's afraid of becoming like Azshara and that she's quite aware of that fear. If she denied it she wouldn't constantly be trying to prevent it.

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The Forsaken could be baffled when firstly face their hidden fear, but they still should be able to face it after seeing it, their will is stronger than other mortals since they really suffered a lot and be able to break even the Lich King's control and live in their own way. We must remember they suffered far more most of the living creatures did, their survival is already proved their toughness.
See, that's just it. Regardless of a player ability or claims made by the Forsaken themselves, events in the story itself have made it clear that they really aren't stronger-willed than the other races. They just think that they are because they mistake detachment and indifference to others' suffering as a form of strength. A vast number of them have immersed themselves in hatred and lust for vengeance, thinking that by acting as they do they're stronger and better than the "weaker" living races. But that's not really strength. They think it is, but that's also what demons consider to be strength. And in light of that it's hardly surprising that a whole bunch of high-ranking Forsaken threw their lot in with those very demons because they thought that real strength and power came from the hate and misery they were spreading wherever they went in their pursuit of vengeance against those they felt had wronged them. From the Forsaken angle, the entire Wrathgate and Battle for Undercity was one big dismantling of their mentality as their supposed exercises in willpower bit them in the ass and their blind pursuit of vengeance nearly cost them everything. It was clear proof that what they'd seen as willpower to that point was really just their reflexive desire to ignore whatever they didn't want to feel or hear out of a fear that such human feelings would make them weak.

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If they were so afraid of their living brethrens and the Scourge, how come they could fight against them? Especially Sylvanas’ forces were at the forefront of the Horde’s assault on Northrend..
Is the entire concept of what a dream is escaping you? Obviously in the waking world they can muster the willpower to overcome their fears, just as any other beings can.

But in their dreams, they aren't in control. Nobody is, except those who have trained to control their minds in such a state like the druids and green dragons have, and even they aren't completely in control when something stronger than themselves intervenes. That's the whole point. In their nightmares they aren't in control and none of the strength they possess in the real world avails them because it's a nightmare.
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  #187  
Old 03-28-2010, 10:27 PM
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It's not player ability, only strong willed undead could break free from the Lich King. And think about their experience, they suffered so much, not only the Scourge killed them and turned them into this kind of monster, all their living brethrens won't love but hate and fear them forever. Most of the living creatures won't suffer such thing. If they are not strong willed, how could they continue their life? In truth if they are not, not only they won't have a goal to live or even lost their mind, the Lich King could regain control of them like those "mindless ones" and "Scourge Zombies". You are saying vengeance, but honestly, vengeance does make people stronger in many ways, just like love. It's not more powerful but usually more efficient than love.

As for Sylvanas, she's already a very strong willed woman in her life, after her death she was able to take so much pain and torment of both herself and her people but she still broke free and kicked those dreadlords' ass, created her own faction without any superhero or god's help. If that's not strong willed, I don't know what is. If she was escaping her fear of the Lich King, I don't think she would go challenge the Lich King in HoR at all.

Are you saying Sylvanas is avoidng her fear by directly challenge her greatest enemy on her own?

I looked at her HoR lines, she didn't seem to hide her fear when realized the Lich King was too powerful for her to deal. When she found dead end, she just told us:
So this is how it ends. Prepare yourselves, heroes, for today we make our final stand!

But I guess the HoR information could affect her, in WOW magazine, seems like Blizzard chose the horde version as lore, so she knew, or at least suspect the Lich King is still there because she got information from Uther and might felt it throught that very weak link she got with the Lich King.

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  #188  
Old 03-28-2010, 10:52 PM
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It's not player ability, only strong willed undead could break free from the Lich King. And think about their experience, they suffered so much, not only the Scourge killed them and turned them into this kind of monster, all their living brethrens won't love but hate and fear them forever. Most of the living creatures won't suffer such thing. If they are not strong willed, how could they continue their life? In truth if they are not, not only they won't have a goal to live or even lost their mind, the Lich King could regain control of them like those "mindless ones" and "Scourge Zombies".

As for Sylvanas, she's already a very strong willed woman in her life, after her death she was able to take so much pain and torment from both herself and her people but she still broke free and kicked those dreadlords' ass, created her own faction without any superhero or god's help. If that's not strong willed, I don't know what is. If she was escaping her fear of the Lich King, I don't think she would go challenge the Lich King in HoR at all.
What are you talking about? There wasn't any "breaking free" from the Scourge. The Lich King lost control of the entire Plaguelands during TFT because his power was bleeding out of the Frozen Throne and he couldn't hold onto his forces beyond Northrend. Sylvanas didn't even realize what was going on until the dreadlords told her that the Lich King's power was waning and she connected that with his voice vanishing from her thoughts. Otherwise, it could easily be that those undead who became Forsaken are basically the remnants of the hierarchy of Scourge who were already subject to her commands when she was still enslaved, and all the rest became the dreadlords' slaves because Kel'thuzad and Arthas weren't nearby to control them any more.

If the Scourge were running around enslaving people without killing them first that would be one thing, but the fact is there haven't been any sentient mortal races - Forsaken or otherwise - who have been shown succumbing to the Lich King's mental domination against their will without dying first. The Scourge's truly living minions are all willing servants, and the rest were killed before being enslaved. Yeah, we've got the RPG account of Forsaken slipping back, but honestly I'd be hesitant to trust an example given by Brann that he received from a Forsaken. Are those Forsaken which they "mercy kill" really becoming Scourge, or are they just saying that whenever they kill a Forsaken who's either rebellious or too damaged to be of use? Hard to say for certain...

If willpower had that much to do with it, then the Forsaken constructs would be worthless because abominations are basically childlike and imbecilic in their mental capacity and would be immediately exposed to Scourge control when they encountered the Lich King's minions, if not even sooner.

Plus willpower isn't a cut-and-dried quantifiable thing. Putress may have had the "willpower" to remain free-thinking, but his actions are slear proof that he had a weak will and succumbed to the worst sort of impulses and behavior. Taking the easy path and doing terrible things to people for the sake of expediency is a sign of weakness, and an unwillingness to do what's right instead because it's hard to do. The fact is, the Forsaken since Vanilla WoW have been shown taking the easy path: it's easy to hate everyone and blame the world for one's misfortunes. It's easy to hurt others and deceive them for selfish reasons instead of coexist peacefully and honestly with them. It takes a lot more real willpower to resist one's base and violent urges every day than it does to resist the grip of a dark lord thousands of miles away, and frankly the Forsaken have displayed a rather lacking amount of that sort of willpower. Willpower's not just about resisting the influence of others; it's even more importantly about resisting one's own dark inclinations.
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  #189  
Old 03-28-2010, 11:01 PM
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What are you talking about? There wasn't any "breaking free" from the Scourge. The Lich King lost control of the entire Plaguelands during TFT because his power was bleeding out of the Frozen Throne and he couldn't hold onto his forces beyond Northrend. Sylvanas didn't even realize what was going on until the dreadlords told her that the Lich King's power was waning and she connected that with his voice vanishing from her thoughts. Otherwise, it could easily be that those undead who became Forsaken are basically the remnants of the hierarchy of Scourge who were already subject to her commands when she was still enslaved, and all the rest became the dreadlords' slaves because Kel'thuzad and Arthas weren't nearby to control them any more.

If the Scourge were running around enslaving people without killing them first that would be one thing, but the fact is there haven't been any sentient mortal races - Forsaken or otherwise - who have been shown succumbing to the Lich King's mental domination against their will without dying first. The Scourge's truly living minions are all willing servants, and the rest were killed before being enslaved. Yeah, we've got the RPG account of Forsaken slipping back, but honestly I'd be hesitant to trust an example given by Brann that he received from a Forsaken. Are those Forsaken which they "mercy kill" really becoming Scourge, or are they just saying that whenever they kill a Forsaken who's either rebellious or too damaged to be of use? Hard to say for certain...

If willpower had that much to do with it, then the Forsaken constructs would be worthless because abominations are basically childlike and imbecilic in their mental capacity and would be immediately exposed to Scourge control when they encountered the Lich King's minions, if not even sooner.

Plus willpower isn't a cut-and-dried quantifiable thing. Putress may have had the "willpower" to remain free-thinking, but his actions are slear proof that he had a weak will and succumbed to the worst sort of impulses and behavior. Taking the easy path and doing terrible things to people for the sake of expediency is a sign of weakness, and an unwillingness to do what's right instead because it's hard to do. The fact is, the Forsaken since Vanilla WoW have been shown taking the easy path: it's easy to hate everyone and blame the world for one's misfortunes. It's easy to hurt others and deceive them for selfish reasons instead of coexist peacefully and honestly with them. It takes a lot more real willpower to resist one's base and violent urges every day than it does to resist the grip of a dark lord thousands of miles away, and frankly the Forsaken have displayed a rather lacking amount of that sort of willpower. Willpower's not just about resisting the influence of others; it's even more importantly about resisting one's own dark inclinations.
Those weak willed fall into the dreadlord's control or became mindless ones, the strong willed became the Forsaken.

No that's not right about the living thing.

From the confines of the Frozen Throne, Ner'zhul began to reach out his vast consciousness and touch the minds of Northrend's native inhabitants. With little effort, he enslaved the minds of many indigenous creatures, including ice trolls and fierce wendigo, and he drew their evil brethren into his growing shadow. His psychic powers proved to be almost limitless, and he used them to create a small army that he housed within Icecrown's twisting labyrinths.

He could control a bunch of living mortals' mind with very little effort. In truth even Kel'Thuzad could do so.

Sylvanas' will was never under the Lich King's control, his voice and Arthas's blade could only direct her body's action. And other strong willed forsaken might be like her, too. Blightcaller for example.

I'll try to find more Forsaken stuff tomorrow.

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  #190  
Old 03-28-2010, 11:18 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Those weak willed fall into the dreadlord's control or became mindless ones, the strong willed became the Forsaken.
So you're suggesting that by sheer coincidence the strong-willed undead who were set free just so happened to be geographically distributed so that they'd all be near Sylvanas and thus able to rally together, while all of the weaker-willed ones were located elsewhere so that they wouldn't be camped right next to her forces when the dreadlords took control of them?

You're acting like being resistant to psychic control is a catch-all immunity to one's own weaknesses as well. That staying apart from the Scourge means they're possessed of an all-encompassing iron will. It doesn't. The Forskaen basically spent the years after being freed busily replacing their enslavement to the Scourge with an enslavement to their own basest, vilest inclinations. They left behind unwilling slavery and gladly embraced willing slavery to their own homegrown spite and anger.

Nothing about murdering innocent people with engineered diseases and plotting to betray their living allies fits with acting out of a strong will. They're symptoms of giving up; of deciding that instead of dealing with the world and what's been done to them, they would prefer to just destroy it all so that they don't have to look at a world that they feel betrayed them any more. Just because they don't surrender to the Lich King doesn't mean they aren't surrendering to something ever worse in themselves.
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:32 PM
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So you're suggesting that by sheer coincidence the strong-willed undead who were set free just so happened to be geographically distributed so that they'd all be near Sylvanas and thus able to rally together, while all of the weaker-willed ones were located elsewhere so that they wouldn't be camped right next to her forces when the dreadlords took control of them?

You're acting like being resistant to psychic control is a catch-all immunity to one's own weaknesses as well. That staying apart from the Scourge means they're possessed of an all-encompassing iron will. It doesn't. The Forskaen basically spent the years after being freed busily replacing their enslavement to the Scourge with an enslavement to their own basest, vilest inclinations. They left behind unwilling slavery and gladly embraced willing slavery to their own homegrown spite and anger.

Nothing about murdering innocent people with engineered diseases and plotting to betray their living allies fits with acting out of a strong will. They're symptoms of giving up; of deciding that instead of dealing with the world and what's been done to them, they would prefer to just destroy it all so that they don't have to look at a world that they feel betrayed them any more. Just because they don't surrender to the Lich King doesn't mean they aren't surrendering to something ever worse in themselves.
Of course vengeance will bring people power and make them strong, just like in real life.

Good night, we'll talke more tomorrow.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:12 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Of course vengeance will bring people power and make them strong, just like in real life.

Good night, we'll talke more tomorrow.
Or will drive them insane... and once accomplishing it, into depression. Just ask Maiev.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:29 AM
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Or will drive them insane... and once accomplishing it, into depression. Just ask Maiev.
You try a career change after 10,000 years.
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:03 AM
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You try a career change after 10,000 years.
Eh... most people who can do that have omnipotence of a degree and fat chance not wanting that.
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:03 AM
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Or will drive them insane... and once accomplishing it, into depression. Just ask Maiev.
Vengeance is a very strong force, it's from love, not stronger, but more efficient than love usually.

As for the Forsaken, they broke the Lich King's control and gained free will. They hate livings, yes. But why? Because the living creatures will never accept them anymore. Both the living and the death(Scourge) are their enemy, vengeance is the only way they could choose to live on.

PS: I don't think Maiev's vengeance is really accomplished.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:19 PM
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*thinks back to when Illidan died...*

Nope, pretty sure she's dealt with the object of her vengeance... unless of course she decides to go on a Naga-killing binge since they helped him, or go after the Blood Elves for working with him. Then, since I know you're thinking it, there could also be her targeting Tyrande for being the actual person to kill the watchers and free Illidan, starting the whole chain of events.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:30 PM
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*thinks back to when Illidan died...*

Nope, pretty sure she's dealt with the object of her vengeance... unless of course she decides to go on a Naga-killing binge since they helped him, or go after the Blood Elves for working with him. Then, since I know you're thinking it, there could also be her targeting Tyrande for being the actual person to kill the watchers and free Illidan, starting the whole chain of events.
Actually almost all her hate came from her love of her brother, her watchers and justice(Well some of her later actions also went off from justice). She just couldn't accept all her watcher's death for nothing when Illidan was spared.

Vengeance and hate really can give people incredible power the similar way love gives.

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Old 03-29-2010, 04:28 PM
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Actually almost all her hate came from her love of her brother, her watchers and justice(Well some of her later actions also went off from justice). She just couldn't accept all her watcher's death for nothing when Illidan was spared.

Vengeance and hate really can give people incredible power the similar way love gives.
Well, with Illidan dead, would her lust for 'justice' be sated? The Betrayer was killed by her hand, thus delivering final punishment for the original betrayal, nearly destroying Northrend, and killing Naisha and the remaining watchers that followed Maiev. Sure Califax still gets the short end of the stick for what happened between him and Tyrande, but still... he's probably with Cenarius in the dream.

Maiev killed Illidan and then declared herself void... she's an emotionally broken person right now, and wandered off into nothingness. Until Blizz says otherwise, she's out there turning to alcoholism, or writing sad poetry.
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I'm developing a really weird aversion to the color red...
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I think I could go down to McDonalds, order a strawberry milkshake, take the bus to the park, enjoy the weather, and then go home, and it'd still be enough to somehow piss off alliance players.
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  #199  
Old 03-29-2010, 04:52 PM
Slowpokeking
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Well, with Illidan dead, would her lust for 'justice' be sated? The Betrayer was killed by her hand, thus delivering final punishment for the original betrayal, nearly destroying Northrend, and killing Naisha and the remaining watchers that followed Maiev. Sure Califax still gets the short end of the stick for what happened between him and Tyrande, but still... he's probably with Cenarius in the dream.

Maiev killed Illidan and then declared herself void... she's an emotionally broken person right now, and wandered off into nothingness. Until Blizz says otherwise, she's out there turning to alcoholism, or writing sad poetry.
Well, maybe she regained her toughness after just a little while, but hard to say really. Many people will feel void for a little while after something important, especially revenge is done. Sylvanas didn't act the way Maiev did, maybe because she got so many people to take care of, maybe she knew the Lich King was still there.

PS: Cenarius isn't in the dream and Knaak never gives an explanation.
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:00 PM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Well, maybe she regained her toughness after just a little while, but hard to say really. Many people will feel void for a little while after something important, especially revenge is done. Sylvanas didn't act the way Maiev did, maybe because she got so many people to take care of, maybe she knew the Lich King was still there.

PS: Cenarius isn't in the dream and Knaak never gives an explanation.
Quick post before I get to where I have to be... I don't care what Knaak said. Malfurion let me know Cenarius was up and kicking in the dream ala AQ chain.
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I'm developing a really weird aversion to the color red...
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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I think I could go down to McDonalds, order a strawberry milkshake, take the bus to the park, enjoy the weather, and then go home, and it'd still be enough to somehow piss off alliance players.

Last edited by Anasterian; 03-29-2010 at 08:05 PM..
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