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Old 02-13-2014, 03:50 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Tome of Experience The Great Big History Thread

Here is your thread to talk about history... be it political, military, economic or whatever....

Talk up your countries history, or least/favorite historical people. Or just debate whether or not your country really lost/won that war centuries ago!

I just got done watching "Monarchy" on Netflix. It's all about the history of the English Monarchy from Alfred to Cromwell.

The whole unification, wales and the scots... endlessly fascinating.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
The same. If we talk about the unification of Germany, do we really want to switch threads every time war breaks out?
Well, Germany really does love it's wars....
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:56 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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My country won at everything it has ever done.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:04 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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The dismantling of the German state after the Second World War was a historical travesty. Where art thou, Prussia? Baden?
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:04 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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American history is my least favorite. European history has always been my favorite, from ancient days straight to both world wars.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:11 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
My country won at everything it has ever done.
I think we were just talking about how the U.S. never gained total control over Canada, eh?

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Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
The dismantling of the German state after the Second World War was a historical travesty. Where art thou, Prussia? Baden?
And Austria?

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
American history is my least favorite. European history has always been my favorite, from ancient days straight to both world wars.
Same here. U.S. history is like one giant, plodding storyline about a main character growing in life and doing stuff that's important to him, whatever. European history is like a giant game of Risk, with different players getting stronger at different times.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:11 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
The dismantling of the German state after the Second World War was a historical travesty. Where art thou, Prussia? Baden?
I wondered if one of the reasons behind the partition of Germany was the Allies idea to avoid the rise of another Hitler by having a Germany split into two and being governed by two different political systems.

And I miss Königsberg. It's just not the same without a german population...

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Same here. U.S. history is like one giant, plodding storyline about a main character growing in life and doing stuff that's important to him, whatever. European history is like a giant game of Risk, with different players getting stronger at different times.
So America is Varian?
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:14 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
I wondered if one of the reasons behind the partition of Germany was the Allies idea to avoid the rise of another Hitler by having a Germany split into two and being governed by two different political systems.

And I miss Königsberg. It's just not the same without a german population...
Konigsberg is the least of their losses, dear fellow. I do not agree with the Oder-Neise line. I do not agree with giving territory inhabited primarily by Germans to others. I do not agree with expulsion of people from their homes. And furthermore, I do not like the destruction of historical borders, and historical states, as was done in Germany. At least the Weimar maintained the proper boundaries, for the most part.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:18 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
So America is Varian?
I'll say it again: "Azeroth-Stormwind is an amalgamation of Brazil, Canada, and the United States."

From the United States it takes national exceptionalism, manifest destiny, and a obnoxiously self-centered view of history and world politics.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:23 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
Konigsberg is the least of their losses, dear fellow. I do not agree with the Oder-Neise line. I do not agree with giving territory inhabited primarily by Germans to others. I do not agree with expulsion of people from their homes. And furthermore, I do not like the destruction of historical borders, and historical states, as was done in Germany. At least the Weimar maintained the proper boundaries, for the most part.
Konignsberg was always a huge loss to me, such a beautiful city and of one the jewels of Prussia.

It's amazing to think how much history would've changed if Germany hadn't been changed after WWI.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'll say it again: "Azeroth-Stormwind is an amalgamation of Brazil, Canada, and the United States."

From the United States it takes national exceptionalism, manifest destiny, and a obnoxiously self-centered view of history and world politics.
Does that apply to American history?
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:26 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Konignsberg was always a huge loss to me, such a beautiful city and of one the jewels of Prussia.

It's amazing to think how much history would've changed if Germany hadn't been changed after WWI.
Koenigsberg may have been beautiful before it was charred to ash, like so many European and Japanese cities…but I don't think the Russians are taking very good care of it.

Even if the Empire had fallen and the Weimar had survived, it would've been interesting…very interesting.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:27 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Obligatory mention of Vlad Tepes who made the Ottomans shit themselves at the sight of a forest of impaled corpses most of them being Ottomans.

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Old 02-13-2014, 04:37 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
The dismantling of the German state after the Second World War was a historical travesty. Where art thou, Prussia? Baden?
It's not like there was much of a choice, considering how tense things were. It sucked, but that's life.

Certainly better to have split it than to have given it all to the Soviets.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:07 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
It's not like there was much of a choice, considering how tense things were. It sucked, but that's life.

Certainly better to have split it than to have given it all to the Soviets.
An entirely Soviet Germany would of been completely awful.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:10 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
The trade embargo was stopped before the USA Government even declared war.

Similarly. The Peace Treaty was signed before the Battle of New Orleans.

It's just that communications weren't instant.

(Which technically means the Battle of New Orleans was not part of the war, thus cannot be attributed to an 'American victory')
Yes, the trade embargo was lifted before the war started.
British impressment continued unabated until the end of the Napoleonic Wars (And this was one of the main reasons for the war in the first place)

The Treaty of Ghent was signed before the Battle of NO (24 Dec 1814)
But it wasn't ratified until 7 Feb. Until both sides ratified it, the war continued. The treaty was signed on 24 Dec. British ratified it on 27 Dec, the US didn't ratify it until 7 Feb. So technically, any action taken until 7 Feb is part of the War of 1812 and the Battle of NO, as well as the Second Battle of Fort Bowyer (a british victory) are part of the War of 1812 even though they took place after the treaty had been signed.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:26 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
Certainly better to have split it than to have given it all to the Soviets.
I don't care about it being split. I care about the disestablishment of the rightful German states, and partition of German land.

The Battle of New Orleans was a propaganda victory and nothing more.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:28 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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/r/BadHistory is a pretty cool subreddit.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:31 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
The trade embargo was stopped before the USA Government even declared war.

Similarly. The Peace Treaty was signed before the Battle of New Orleans.

It's just that communications weren't instant.

(Which technically means the Battle of New Orleans was not part of the war, thus cannot be attributed to an 'American victory')

The USA lost the War of 1812. The British Empire COULD have pressed the attack and absolutely wrecked the place, but it had only just come out of a very long war with France. After veteran soldiers from Spain were sent over the White House got burnt down in short order.

The only reason the USA survived it's attack on Canada was because Great Britain was fighting Napoleon at the time. You know, that guy who nearly conquered most of Europe. The Americans were viewed as insignificant and not worth the effort.

People are also making the mistake of thinking Canada was, at the time, separate from Great Britain. It was not. Canada WAS Great Britain. The USA tried to take land from Great Britain, and was repelled. That's a loss.
There's also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Result: Status quo ante bellum with no boundary changes;
  • Military stalemate
  • Defeat of Tecumseh's Indian Confederation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Let's not forget that we killed Zul'jin and smashed the Amani on our frontier.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:41 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I think I've already mentioned this, but I have a peculiar fascination with boring monarchs. Those who have access to untold wealth and power, and largely spurn it in order to either do their job or focus on things they actually enjoy. I guess I kind of admire this quality (I rather like it in elected leaders as well). The Hongzhi Emperor, Empress Theodora the Macedonian, and King George III are all examples.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:44 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I think I've already mentioned this, but I have a peculiar fascination with boring monarchs. Those who have access to untold wealth and power, and largely spurn it in order to either do their job or focus on things they actually enjoy. I guess I kind of admire this quality (I rather like it in elected leaders as well). The Hongzhu Emperor, Empress Theodora the Macedonian, and King George III are all examples.
Well aren't leaders suppose to use their power to serve their people?
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:46 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
I wondered if one of the reasons behind the partition of Germany was the Allies idea to avoid the rise of another Hitler by having a Germany split into two and being governed by two different political systems.
No. The intention was to split it apart and then put it back together, but the Soviets liked their half too much to let it unify with the other half of the country.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:48 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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No. The intention was to split it apart and then put it back together, but the Soviets liked their half too much to let it unify with the other half of the country.
The Soviets don't do a really good job at making countries in their image. Eastern Germany and North Korea didn't turn out so well.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:54 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
The Soviets don't do a really good job at making countries in their image. Eastern Germany and North Korea didn't turn out so well.
China meddled with North Korea, not the Soviet Union... I think.

Though, they did do rather well with making Eastern Germany rather Soviet-like, what with the brutal secret police, oppression, and being a nigh-constant fuck-up that lagged behind its western counterpart.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:54 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Well aren't leaders suppose to use their power to serve their people?
Ideally. Not all of the people I mentioned were necessarily good or responsible leaders (Theodora was mediocre at best). I just find that general type of leader interesting.

Though like everyone else I'm also fascinated by the really outlandish personalities, like Ungern-Sternberg, Francisco Solano Lopez, and Enrico Dandolo (though unlike the other two, Dandolo knew what the hell he was doing).
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:55 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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No. The intention was to split it apart and then put it back together, but the Soviets liked their half too much to let it unify with the other half of the country.
Nah, I'm pretty sure the USSR's goal at the end of World War II was to make sure Germany could never fuck with them again by crippling them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'll say it again: "Azeroth-Stormwind is an amalgamation of Brazil, Canada, and the United States."

From the United States it takes national exceptionalism, manifest destiny, and a obnoxiously self-centered view of history and world politics.
And from Brazil, it's extreme lack of body hair counterbalanced by its copious thong underwear?

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
China meddled with North Korea, not the Soviet Union... I think.
Well, it's really both of them. The Soviets put Kim Il-Sung into power, but the Chinese People's Army directly intervened in the Korean War. Part of that is that China and the USSR were not exactly the US and UK even before the Sino-Soviet Split, and so the Soviets didn't like the idea of China establishing its own satellite states, and the Chinese didn't like the idea of the Soviets having a country on their other border taking marching orders from Moscow.

Of course, since he's a Kim, so in the 60s he managed to piss off both China AND Russia anyway.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:13 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
Well, it's really both of them. The Soviets put Kim Il-Sung into power, but the Chinese People's Army directly intervened in the Korean War. Part of that is that China and the USSR were not exactly the US and UK even before the Sino-Soviet Split, and so the Soviets didn't like the idea of China establishing its own satellite states, and the Chinese didn't like the idea of the Soviets having a country on their other border taking marching orders from Moscow.

Of course, since he's a Kim, so in the 60s he managed to piss off both China AND Russia anyway.
One school of thought says he tried to play China and Russia off against each other. The Kim Dynasty is thoroughly loathsome, but Il Sung and Jong Il (jury's still out on Jong Un) were probably cleverer than people give them credit for.

Also, what the hell is up with Rodman going over there? They should have sent Dikembe Mutombo. First of all, the guy is incredibly smart, so there's actually some rationale for sending him to diplomatic functions (he speaks 8 languages). Also, he could chill at the DMZ and intercept potential NK nukes, swat them out of the sky, and say: "Not in my Korea, ha ha ha!"

And them Kim Jong Un would cry, because he can't do shit about it.
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