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  #26  
Old 02-13-2014, 09:17 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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The situation in Korea is ultimately the fault of the Japanese colonisation. The Japanese colonisation is ultimately the fault of Westerners. It was a bunch of dominoes, I'd say.
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  #27  
Old 02-13-2014, 10:25 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Blaming the situation in Korea on anyone but the Kims is excusing a lot of the terrible shit they have done by passing the blame to Imperialist powers. The Japanese may have treated them like shit, but the Kims themselves have final responsibility for their endless parade of human rights violations, just like the Japanese have responsibility for the Rape of Nanking, and Europeans for the genocide of the Native Americans, and so on.
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  #28  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:52 AM
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Korea would not've been divided if it had been able to modernise in peace, without Japan taking it over. Of course, Japan took it over because of inferiority complex caused by Western imperialism, and also because TR pretty much gave it to them, as they were "honorary white people". They especially did not want a Western power of any colour taking over Korea, right on their flank. So, they colonised it.

Korea was dragged into this mess by others. It never did anything to directly deserve being split in half, regardless of the crimes of the Kim dynasty.
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  #29  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:55 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Do you think all of the worlds problems are because of the west Eagan?
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  #30  
Old 02-14-2014, 08:10 AM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Do you think all of the worlds problems are because of the west Eagan?
Not at all. But we cause a great deal of them, that's for sure.
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  #31  
Old 02-14-2014, 09:43 AM
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Not at all. But we cause a great deal of them, that's for sure.
But Eagan! The colonization attempts by the West started because the Ottomans blocked up the Silk Road! And the Silk Road was blocked because the Mongol empire fell, leaving a power vacuum! But wait, the Mongol empire fell due to a widespread rise in national identity and the creation of weapons and tactics that could counter the Mongolians tactics, not to mention the lack of a unifying leader! And the Mongol empire needed a leader because their social structure was based off of tribal traditions! And those traditions came from a way life of life made to nomadic plains dwelling! And that only happens because the Mongols began as people who lived on the central Asian steppes. Sp clearly, it's the steppe's fault for Korea.

That, or maybe assigning blame to countries and nations in history is pointless as everything comes from something else. The Kims as individuals are the only ones responsible for the actions of the Kims.
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  #32  
Old 02-14-2014, 09:44 AM
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Harald Hardrada was cool.
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  #33  
Old 02-14-2014, 09:45 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
But Eagan! The colonization attempts by the West started because the Ottomans blocked up the Silk Road! And the Silk Road was blocked because the Mongol empire fell, leaving a power vacuum! But wait, the Mongol empire fell due to a widespread rise in national identity and the creation of weapons and tactics that could counter the Mongolians tactics, not to mention the lack of a unifying leader! And the Mongol empire needed a leader because their social structure was based off of tribal traditions! And those traditions came from a way life of life made to nomadic plains dwelling! And that only happens because the Mongols began as people who lived on the central Asian steppes. Sp clearly, it's the steppe's fault for Korea.

That, or maybe assigning blame to countries and nations in history is pointless as everything comes from something else. The Kims as individuals are the only ones responsible for the actions of the Kims.
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  #34  
Old 02-14-2014, 09:59 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Isn't everything the fault of the mongols?

All those diseases and warfare that they spread around the world because they couldn't be happy living in the Asian steppes.

Greedy SOBs
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  #35  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:02 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
Korea would not've been divided if it had been able to modernise in peace, without Japan taking it over. Of course, Japan took it over because of inferiority complex caused by Western imperialism, and also because TR pretty much gave it to them, as they were "honorary white people". They especially did not want a Western power of any colour taking over Korea, right on their flank. So, they colonised it.

Korea was dragged into this mess by others. It never did anything to directly deserve being split in half, regardless of the crimes of the Kim dynasty.
Being half a country is probably the least of Korea's problems these days. The most serious "situation in Korea" is death camps, mass starvation and the near-collapse of infrastructure beyond the capital, and that is absolutely on the Kims. To say anything less is to excuse their behavior. If the split alone were responsible South Korea would be doing the same shit.
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  #36  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:38 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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South Korea was not exactly a wonderland of freedom directly after the Korean War. The reason the United States isn't popular in SK despite our assisting them in the War is because for decades afterwards the USA supported dictators there.

The split is a more serious issue for the North because the vast majority of the farmable land is in the South.

Blaming Japanese Imperialism of being jealous of the West is silly. They have wanted Korea since the time of Hideyoshi.
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  #37  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:41 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The South Koreans like the United States. At least recently.

http://www.pewglobal.org/database/in...1/country/116/
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  #38  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:46 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
South Korea was not exactly a wonderland of freedom directly after the Korean War. The reason the United States isn't popular in SK despite our assisting them in the War is because for decades afterwards the USA supported dictators there.
Not exactly, while it is true that some SK view the US negatively because of US support for dictators in SK, overall SK have a very favorable view of the US according to all of the polls that have been taken. Out of all of the countries in the world, SK reguarly ranks the US positively in the Top 4. And out of the asian countries, SK was ranked number one in terms of viewing the US positively.

I've also been over to SK and never felt like the SK as a majority didn't like the US.
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  #39  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:48 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Well, South Korea's relationship with the USA is too complex for my summation of it to be apt, but suffice to say its more than that one poll suggests. Consider this
http://www.pewglobal.org/database/in...4/country/116/

They like Americans.

(I mean, I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject. Just going off what I understand to be true)
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  #40  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:53 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
Well, South Korea's relationship with the USA is too complex for my summation of it to be apt, but suffice to say its more than that one poll suggests. Consider this
http://www.pewglobal.org/database/in...4/country/116/
http://www.globescan.com/images/imag..._globescan.pdf

http://www.pewglobal.org/database/in...1/country/116/

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...-pro-american/

http://news.chosun.com/site/data/htm...030500047.html

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Mar11_rpt.pdf

Every countries relationship is always complex. That's just the nature of international relations, the histories behind those relations and all that.

One thing that I do wonder, if at some point will North and South come together, or is it just farting in the wind because the Chinese support the NK while the Americans support the SK...
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  #41  
Old 02-14-2014, 11:01 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
South Korea was not exactly a wonderland of freedom directly after the Korean War. The reason the United States isn't popular in SK despite our assisting them in the War is because for decades afterwards the USA supported dictators there.

The split is a more serious issue for the North because the vast majority of the farmable land is in the South.

Blaming Japanese Imperialism of being jealous of the West is silly. They have wanted Korea since the time of Hideyoshi.
I am well aware that the US supported dictatorships there; however, what the Kims have done of their own initiative goes far beyond what American-supported dictatorships perpetrated in the past. Likewise, while the North is short on arable land, the problem would likely be manageable if not for the gross management of the North Korean state, which again goes back to the Kims and their programs.
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  #42  
Old 02-14-2014, 11:35 AM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Blaming Japanese Imperialism of being jealous of the West is silly. They have wanted Korea since the time of Hideyoshi.
Sure, there was the Hideyoshi incident. Of course, this was not necessarily imperialism, but traditional war. And anyway, it was Japan against both the Great Ming and Joseon. I don't think it is really comparable, and it had a very different impetus.

However, modern Japanese imperialism is a product of the West, pure and simple. First and foremost, the West forced Japan open. Having done so, Japan had to fight for a place in the world it found itself. Western powers were busy gobbling up the Great Qing, and the rest of the world. Japan saw signs of the West attempting to do the same to Japan. It quickly modernised, to try and "fit in" among the powers that be. Then, it decided that it had to show the West that it wasn't just another little nation to be conquered. It did not want to feel like an inferior power, as the West tried to make it feel. And so, its imperial ambitions were launched.

Not only to prove Japan's worth to the West, but also to prevent the West from being able to do the same to Japan as it did to the Qing. Korea was an ideal target, as it was a small Kingdom, nearby, that was struggling with its own modernisation. The Qing, Korea's traditional protector, was in no position to help properly. American and Prussians advised Japan that if it did not do something about Korea, some Western power would take it and use it as a launchpad to conquer Japan.

Japan was already deeply distrusting of the West after the Liaodong Peninsula affair, in which land that was rightfully conquered by Japan in the Sino-Japanese War was given to Russia by Western meddling.

Americans specifically encouraged Japanese intentions, as it preferred to use them to balance the ambitions of the European great powers. TR gave them the title of "honorary white people", a remark that could be construed either as an insult or great compliment. He had no issue with the Japanese conquering of Korea. In fact, no one did.

If the Japanese did not fight, they knew they would be eliminated. Furthermore, they did not want to feel like little yellow people, as Westerners tried to make them feel like.

The West's meddling has a clear progression towards what happened with Korea. If Korea had not've been split, if it had been left to its own devices, the Kims would never have had a way into power.
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  #43  
Old 02-14-2014, 12:30 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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The West's meddling has a clear progression towards what happened with Korea. If Korea had not've been split, if it had been left to its own devices, the Kims would never have had a way into power.
Korea being left to its own devices would also require that the other East Asian states are too weak to make it a satellite or tributary state, as tends to happen. So in this fictional scenario, who is keeping China or Japan or the USSR from coming in and taking over the whole country for its resources, if technology develops but the Western powers don't meddle in Asia? Is your scenario predicated on the idea that Japan et al would just remain closed-off and exactly the same forever unless someone made them change? Or that industrialization would just not reach Asia? Because Kim Il-Sung rose to prominence fighting invaders, and I don't think it much matters what nationality those invaders are.

Say what you will but nobody's forcing the North Koreans to put entire families in death camps for the crime of being related to a defector except the Kims themselves.
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  #44  
Old 02-14-2014, 01:09 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Korea being left to its own devices would also require that the other East Asian states are too weak to make it a satellite or tributary state, as tends to happen. So in this fictional scenario, who is keeping China or Japan or the USSR from coming in and taking over the whole country for its resources, if technology develops but the Western powers don't meddle in Asia? Is your scenario predicated on the idea that Japan et al would just remain closed-off and exactly the same forever unless someone made them change? Or that industrialization would just not reach Asia? Because Kim Il-Sung rose to prominence fighting invaders, and I don't think it much matters what nationality those invaders are.

Say what you will but nobody's forcing the North Koreans to put entire families in death camps for the crime of being related to a defector except the Kims themselves.
My point is simple. The countries of East Asia could've came into the world on their own terms, instead of the terms set by the West. These Western "terms" created Japanese imperialism and the fall of the Qing, among other various scourges.

Of course, no one is making the Kims do anything. However, they merely took advantage of a situation created by external sources to come to power. A period of great despair can easily be taken advantage of. Who created the despair to start with?
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  #45  
Old 02-14-2014, 01:12 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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My favourite part of history is pre-historic times, back before people screwed everything up with stupid political ideologies and organized religions.
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  #46  
Old 02-14-2014, 01:24 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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My favourite part of history is pre-historic times, back before people screwed everything up with stupid political ideologies and organized religions.
Technically religions even existed during prehistoric times. Prehistoric is just before the first writings appeared (and that time keeps getting pushed farther and farther back as we find more). Given the lack of written records of the time we just have no to little knowledge of those ancient religions that didn't survive into the Iron Age such as Sumerian Myths and the Hellenic religions.

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  #47  
Old 02-14-2014, 01:44 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Where the Crusades worth it?

From the very first one, all the way to the end. Where they worth it? Did they do more harm then good? More good then harm?
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  #48  
Old 02-14-2014, 01:55 PM
Apophis Apophis is offline

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Where the Crusades worth it?

From the very first one, all the way to the end. Where they worth it? Did they do more harm then good? More good then harm?
Sure! Without the crusades there would be no Assassin's Creed 1 which takes place during the 3rd crusade I think.
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  #49  
Old 02-14-2014, 01:58 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Where the Crusades worth it?

From the very first one, all the way to the end. Where they worth it? Did they do more harm then good? More good then harm?
I'm not sure most the Crusades besides the 4th had much affect on anything. Even when they did take Jerusalem it was lost pretty quickly. It was always a pretty pointless idea since they were always going to be surrounded by enemies and seemed more focused on that city than said enemies.
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:23 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I'm not sure most the Crusades besides the 4th had much affect on anything. Even when they did take Jerusalem it was lost pretty quickly. It was always a pretty pointless idea since they were always going to be surrounded by enemies and seemed more focused on that city than said enemies.
Well, there is still the cultural exchange factor.
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