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  #51  
Old 02-14-2014, 03:30 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
Technically religions even existed during prehistoric times. Prehistoric is just before the first writings appeared (and that time keeps getting pushed farther and farther back as we find more). Given the lack of written records of the time we just have no to little knowledge of those ancient religions that didn't survive into the Iron Age such as Sumerian Myths and the Hellenic religions.
I know. That's why I wrote organized religions.
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  #52  
Old 02-14-2014, 03:48 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Are we counting the Reconquista as one of the crusades?
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  #53  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:07 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Are we counting the Reconquista as one of the crusades?
I'd say it was a crusade, but not one of the crusades.


@Eagan

It's like you ignored my post entirely. It diminishes the agency of Eastern Nations to say the West is solely responsible for their state. It also ignores what led the West to become so imperialistic. The way you describe history is more than a little biased, and certainly Eurocentric.
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  #54  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:33 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I read 1066 by David Howarth, and despite it being obviously biased in favor of Harold Godwinson, I found myself rooting for Harald Hardrada and William the Conqueror instead.
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  #55  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:36 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
I'd say it was a crusade, but not one of the crusades.


@Eagan

It's like you ignored my post entirely. It diminishes the agency of Eastern Nations to say the West is solely responsible for their state. It also ignores what led the West to become so imperialistic. The way you describe history is more than a little biased, and certainly Eurocentric.
Nothing is "solely" responsible for anything. I'm not an essentialist. But it was a grand and important factor.
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  #56  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:38 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'm going to need some explanation for the "meiji was wrong!" and "taisho was right!" tags. Who's against the Meiji Restoration and modernization of Japan?

EDIT: Okay, looks like Taisho period came later. But they still needed the Meiji period to build off of, yeah?
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  #57  
Old 02-14-2014, 05:10 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'm going to need some explanation for the "meiji was wrong!" and "taisho was right!" tags. Who's against the Meiji Restoration and modernization of Japan?

EDIT: Okay, looks like Taisho period came later. But they still needed the Meiji period to build off of, yeah?
Meiji was a strong emperor during a strong period. He took the reigns himself, and built a powerful Prussian-like state. He was responsible for the First Sino-Japanese War and for the annexation of Korea, and the invasion of Formosa.

Taisho was quite ill and reclusive. He mostly kept to himself. During this period, there was a flourishing of democratic sentiments, as Taisho himself could not be bothered to do anything. Japan was heading toward a symbolic monarchy. Until he died, and Showa took over. Showa reverted to Meiji-style rule, and took it even further.

In other words, one would support Taisho if one believes in the principle of a figurehead monarchy and parliamentary democracy.

Last edited by Eagan; 02-14-2014 at 05:17 PM..
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  #58  
Old 02-14-2014, 05:41 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
Meiji was a strong emperor during a strong period. He took the reigns himself, and built a powerful Prussian-like state. He was responsible for the First Sino-Japanese War and for the annexation of Korea, and the invasion of Formosa.

Taisho was quite ill and reclusive. He mostly kept to himself. During this period, there was a flourishing of democratic sentiments, as Taisho himself could not be bothered to do anything. Japan was heading toward a symbolic monarchy. Until he died, and Showa took over. Showa reverted to Meiji-style rule, and took it even further.

In other words, one would support Taisho if one believes in the principle of a figurehead monarchy and parliamentary democracy.
Emperor or showa, they still seemed militaristic enough to seize Germany's Pacific islands and to make the Twenty-One Demands on China. Seems about par for the course with the direction they were going before and afterward.

Likewise the United States has never had a king, yet still managed to be imperialistic in the same period.
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  #59  
Old 02-14-2014, 05:53 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Emperor or showa, they still seemed militaristic enough to seize Germany's Pacific islands and to make the Twenty-One Demands on China. Seems about par for the course with the direction they were going before and afterward.

Likewise the United States has never had a king, yet still managed to be imperialistic in the same period.
Yes, the same stuff was going on during the reign of Taisho. But the grip of the ruling class was loosened, and a widespread liberal (proper sense) movement existed and flourished for the first time in Japan. Showa completely eradicated them.
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  #60  
Old 02-14-2014, 06:53 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'm going to need some explanation for the "meiji was wrong!" and "taisho was right!" tags. Who's against the Meiji Restoration and modernization of Japan?
The people behind The Last Samurai.

Dear God, do I hate that movie.

And Japan would never have gotten anywhere close to the Taisho-style democracy had it not been for Meiji paving the way. Liberal democracy isn't a shake n' bake (and I'm not sure how well it even applies to modern Japan).
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  #61  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:01 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
The people behind The Last Samurai.

Dear God, do I hate that movie.

And Japan would never have gotten anywhere close to the Taisho-style democracy had it not been for Meiji paving the way. Liberal democracy isn't a shake n' bake (and I'm not sure how well it even applies to modern Japan).
Oh, I agree. The Meiji era was a necessary evil, given the circumstances. I take issue with Showa more than with Meiji. That movie was horrid, truly, though there is something to be said for the negative effects of the modernisation as well. Of course, the disenfranchisement of highly privileged samurai in the Satsuma domain is, well…not really one of those.
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  #62  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:22 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
Oh, I agree. The Meiji era was a necessary evil, given the circumstances. I take issue with Showa more than with Meiji. That movie was horrid, truly, though there is something to be said for the negative effects of the modernisation as well. Of course, the disenfranchisement of highly privileged samurai in the Satsuma domain is, well…not really one of those.
As a professor of a friend of mine once said: "Modernize yourself, or someone else will modernize you."
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  #63  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:26 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
As a professor of a friend of mine once said: "Modernize yourself, or someone else will modernize you."
*points toward Korea*
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  #64  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:27 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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*points toward Korea*
It's called Best Korea for a reason.
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  #65  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:25 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
The people behind The Last Samurai.

Dear God, do I hate that movie.
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  #66  
Old 02-14-2014, 11:51 PM
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I played the shit out of the original Nobunaga's Ambition on the NES when I was a kid, so, I feel like I'm something of an expert on Japanese history.

My favorite story is the time Wolverine rescued the founder of Sony from the atomic bomb over Nagasaki...
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  #67  
Old 02-15-2014, 04:21 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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"poland can not into, realspace,"

Nice one, tags.

I think one of Meiji's biggest flaws was shinbutsu bunri, or rather the violent hate-mongering that followed it. Anti-Buddhist policies in general were ridiculous.
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  #68  
Old 02-15-2014, 08:08 AM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
"poland can not into, realspace,"

Nice one, tags.

I think one of Meiji's biggest flaws was shinbutsu bunri, or rather the violent hate-mongering that followed it. Anti-Buddhist policies in general were ridiculous.
I really don't understand the logic behind splitting the shrines from the temples. The syncretic religion was uniquely Japanese, and it turned out that Japanese people never really "accepted" the split, even if it was official.
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  #69  
Old 02-15-2014, 08:57 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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It's not like there was much of a choice, considering how tense things were. It sucked, but that's life.

Certainly better to have split it than to have given it all to the Soviets.
Rhenanie could have become French, leaving the shame of Germany behind to the glory of France !
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  #70  
Old 02-15-2014, 09:41 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Rhenanie could have become French, leaving the shame of Germany behind to the glory of France !
Hey, I may be proud of my French ancestors, but you shan't make me French!
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  #71  
Old 02-15-2014, 09:58 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Hey, I may be proud of my French ancestors, but you shan't make me French!
Europe shall become French. It is the only way to prevent the anglo-saxons to get even more power and influence in the world. Germans people must become French first, because they are needed for the Greater Good.
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  #72  
Old 02-15-2014, 10:09 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Europe shall become German. It is the only way to prevent the anglo-saxons from getting even more power and influence in the world. French people must become German first, because they are needed for the Greater Good.
That's something I can agree with. We're already halfway there, anyways.
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  #73  
Old 02-15-2014, 10:38 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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That's something I can agree with. We're already halfway there, anyways.
I see how it is... It appears that the "Nuke Hour" as come... better vitrify Germany than to surrender to it !
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  #74  
Old 02-15-2014, 11:10 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Europe shall become French. It is the only way to prevent the anglo-saxons to get even more power and influence in the world. Germans people must become French first, because they are needed for the Greater Good.
Huh, I never figured the French would be the first to fall under Tau influence.
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  #75  
Old 02-15-2014, 12:48 PM
Korath Korath is offline

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Huh, I never figured the French would be the first to fall under Tau influence.
Fool. The Tau are but tamed French people !
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