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  #3526  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:08 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
I see it from an Alliance/Horde standpoint rather than an individual race standpoint. For example, I play a gnome, who should have no investment in either Teldrassil or Undercity, but just from an overall faction viewpoint I think it's worth it. Primarily since we know Blizzard enforces parity, so if Undercity gets destroyed the Alliance has to suffer an equally large loss.
The parity argument I hate, but it is the most logically consistent, at least until you consider the details we have on either side.

The Fall of the Undercity is already being built up in a huge way. It got the main cinematic, Blizzard has talked about what's going to happen after, and we are seeing datamined content for it. Additionally, they took great care to make the Horde look intelligent and strong in its defense, to the point where you could argue that Sylvannas lured the Alliance into a trap. It is also evident that the Forsaken will carry on the fight in the north with the Alliance offensive stopped after having to mount an amphibious landing. This also comes after the Forsaken have had a history of favorable content.

We have a grand total of three images relating to Teldrassil. All of them show complete, unmitigated defeat with the Horde looking triumphant. There is no Teldrassil content in the PTR. Blizzard has a history of treating the Night Elves awfully, leaving the only reasonable expectation that such will continue. The features cinematic appeared to show the Night Elves losing all of their territory, not just Teldrassil, and the devs have been worryingly silent about what is next for the Night Elves.

I fail to see how this is fair or even.
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  #3527  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:10 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
I see it from an Alliance/Horde standpoint rather than an individual race standpoint. For example, I play a gnome, who should have no investment in either Teldrassil or Undercity, but just from an overall faction viewpoint I think it's worth it, as the Forsaken's level of plot armor has been very annoying (and given how SoO became less Alliance invades a faction capital to get revenge on Garrosh while the Horde gets a cool revolution story and more "Horde gets a cool revolution story oh and the Alliance can help too" the Horde's plot armor in general).

Also since we know Blizzard enforces parity, so if Undercity gets destroyed the Alliance has to suffer an equally large loss. If it had been Stormwind or Ironforge I'd equally say it was worth it. Teldrassil was destroyed simply because Blizzard wanted the Alliance to control the Eastern Kingdoms and the Horde to control Kalimdor, and Teldrassil happened to be the Alliance's main city in Kalimdor. Had Exodar been the main city and Teldrassil an instanced add on area that doesn't get used and thus wouldn't cause a lot of stir, they would have destroyed the Exodar.
Don't fall for their Faction Bullshit, iGod. The Forsaken (and, since their leader is still Warchief, by extention any Horde that doesn't rebel) are evil. The Nightelfs are merely boring. There's no equal footing here. And nothing is "worth it" if it's perpetuating the Faction War.

I say the Tauren, Pandaren and Draenei start up their own neutral faction.
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  #3528  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:12 PM
Azurehax Azurehax is offline

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I hope the Forsaken make a huge ass tower in thier (cool) architecture in the ruins of Theramore and take over Dustwallow Marsh. Great port for the Horde and those cool new Forsaken fleets would look great stationed there dwarfed by a big tower.

Bonus points if we get to see Jaina's reaction to it.

Last edited by Azurehax; 01-28-2018 at 03:17 PM..
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  #3529  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:16 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
The parity argument I hate, but it is the most logically consistent, at least until you consider the details we have on either side.
I added a bit more onto the post since you quoted it, that I hope makes my point a little clearer.
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  #3530  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:17 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I think I described my position well enough when I explained that I am a Warcraft I/II fan and the reason for that is that nothing was sacred. Whole continents lost, forced migrations, death on every single step.

And really, you need to tone down your fixation on the night elves.
No, you hadn't, because you are already getting significant elements of that. The last time we spoke on this, you indicated that you would not be satisfied even if all of those boxes were checked unless it also happened in Kalimdor.

So, if I can be blunt: is it your position that there is only room in this whole franchise for your personal preference and no one else's?

Edit: @IGOD - I saw that, my position is unchanged.
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  #3531  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:31 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post

Edit: @IGOD - I saw that, my position is unchanged.
I guess we'll just have to respectfully agree to semi-disagree. Semi because I do agree with you that the night elves have a lot of writing problems, with their loss of "fierceness" and that all their stories are ones of loss being an issue, but in this case still think Teldrassil is more a case of "Blizzard needed to take something away from the Alliance on Kalimdor and Teldrassil is more recognizable/beloved than Exodar and Theramore's already gone" and personally considering losing an alliance capital, any one, to be worth it to get a victorious Alliance storyline.
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  #3532  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:34 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
So, if I can be blunt: is it your position that there is only room in this whole franchise for your personal preference and no one else's?
When it comes to my personal interest? Naturally, yes. If BfA does not do what I personally find interesting, then I will not find it interesting. That does not mean I am going to be mad at Blizzard like you, I will just not be interested.
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  #3533  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:39 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
I guess we'll just have to respectfully agree to semi-disagree. Semi because I do agree with you that the night elves have a lot of writing problems, with their loss of "fierceness" and that all their stories are ones of loss being an issue, but in this case still think Teldrassil is more a case of "Blizzard needed to take something away from the Alliance on Kalimdor and Teldrassil is more recognizable/beloved than Exodar and Theramore's already gone" and personally considering losing an alliance capital, any one, to be worth it to get a victorious Alliance storyline.
Well, let me ask this then: Why not do it to Stormwind?

Stormwind is of relevance to the humans. It would garner actual sympathy, it would give the humans plenty of reason to pour into their old lands and it would mesh with Sylvannas's earlier goals. Ironforge could take Stormwind's place as the faction hub once more.
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  #3534  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:41 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Because Stormwind doesnt exist on kalimdor and isnt on some island that is closer to Kalimdor than the other thing is (exodar) and also in range for the Sword that sylvanas got from sargeras after he stabbed azesloth.

Also tyrande is a Meanie in valsharah, and deserves to burn for her stupid dialogue in legion, because blizzard cant handle her or make her useful, other than being a stupid night elf or a perfect example why night elves should just burn in their fucking graves..
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  #3535  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:47 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Well, let me ask this then: Why not do it to Stormwind?

Stormwind is of relevance to the humans. It would garner actual sympathy, it would give the humans plenty of reason to pour into their old lands and it would mesh with Sylvannas's earlier goals. Ironforge could take Stormwind's place as the faction hub once more.
As I said, I would have no problem with it being Stormwind. Especially since the Before the Storm novel excerpt reveals that Sylvanas has been planning an invasion of Stormwind even before all this Azerite stuff happens so it would actually make more sense.

However Blizzard wants the city the Alliance loses to be in Kalimdor, to continue the theme of each faction dominating one of the two main continents.
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  #3536  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:52 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
When it comes to my personal interest? Naturally, yes. If BfA does not do what I personally find interesting, then I will not find it interesting. That does not mean I am going to be mad at Blizzard like you, I will just not be interested.
Ok, glad to have that cleared up. Now, here are the sales figures for the Warcraft franchise.

https://www.statisticbrain.com/blizz...nt-statistics/

Warcraft I and II sold around a million copies each. Warcraft 3 sold three million, with bundles and the expansion pushing that number up possibly to five million. World of Warcraft sold 14.5 million copies, with subscription numbers declining beginning with the expansion that wanted to bring back a more Warcraft I and II sort of feel.

Especially with a property such as World of Warcraft, where players are given options about what characters they want to represent, in a large, varied game world where many things are possible and where many stories can be told at once, it is my position that it is not only possible, but essential that the developer creates the game so that people who take those choices are satisfied with their experience. Video games, generally speaking, offer a kind of escapism, and a chance to become an ideal version of yourself, and this is generally why depending on the kind of video game you like, the protagonist is portrayed as being competent, and positive in line with the game's intended audience. (for simplicity's sake, I will refer to this as the "Big Tent Model" of MMOs)

Now, you have laid out a position that the developers should create a game that caters only to your personal preference, a personal preference rooted in a part of the franchise that didn't sell as well as other parts of the franchise (in the future, I will, again for simplicity's sake, refer to this as the "Marthen's Game Model" of MMOs). Can you please explain to me why those people who joined the franchise for different reasons than you did should pay for a game that only caters to you, and in some cases, explicitly does so in a way that harms their enjoyment of that game?
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  #3537  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:55 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
I can't believe some posters here truly think the way the Nightborne join the Horde is great. It's one of the most retarded and contrieved excuse I have ever seen. Besides, even if Tyrande was "mean" (if you are a snowflake crybaby), being excited to kill the Alliance that helped you get rid of the Legion is dumb as fuck.
That "target practice in Ashenvale" was a datamined voiceline. Which means nobody knows who's supposed to say that, and everyone assumed it was Thalyssra. Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Night Elves have good reasons to mistrust arcane magic, but instead of ever being allowed to express those reasons, they are just portrayed as unthinking bigots.
The single reason to distrust arcane magic has just been eradicated.

They are unthinking bigots.
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  #3538  
Old 01-28-2018, 03:59 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Ok, glad to have that cleared up. Now, here are the sales figures for the Warcraft franchise.

https://www.statisticbrain.com/blizz...nt-statistics/

Warcraft I and II sold around a million copies each. Warcraft 3 sold three million, with bundles and the expansion pushing that number up possibly to five million. World of Warcraft sold 14.5 million copies, with subscription numbers declining beginning with the expansion that wanted to bring back a more Warcraft I and II sort of feel.

Especially with a property such as World of Warcraft, where players are given options about what characters they want to represent, in a large, varied game world where many things are possible and where many stories can be told at once, it is my position that it is not only possible, but essential that the developer creates the game so that people who take those choices are satisfied with their experience. Video games, generally speaking, offer a kind of escapism, and a chance to become an ideal version of yourself, and this is generally why depending on the kind of video game you like, the protagonist is portrayed as being competent, and positive in line with the game's intended audience. (for simplicity's sake, I will refer to this as the "Big Tent Model" of MMOs)

Now, you have laid out a position that the developers should create a game that caters only to your personal preference, a personal preference rooted in a part of the franchise that didn't sell as well as other parts of the franchise. Can you please explain to me why those people who joined the franchise for different reasons than you did should pay for a game that only caters to you, and in some cases, explicitly does so in a way that harms their enjoyment of that game?
Nice try kid, except you are responding to something I have not said. I have no issue with people having different preferences. Nor do I have any issue with Blizzard catering to those preferences (so long as they are not detrimental to the franchise or the game as a whole), hence why I, unlike you, am not mad even if Blizzard does not cater to my own preferences. I simply have no interest in forcing myself into getting interested into something I am not interested in.
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  #3539  
Old 01-28-2018, 04:06 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Nice try kid, except you are responding to something I have not said. I have no issue with people having different preferences. Nor do I have any issue with Blizzard catering to those preferences (so long as they are not detrimental to the franchise or the game as a whole), hence why I, unlike you, am not mad even if Blizzard does not cater to my own preferences. I simply have no interest in forcing myself into getting interested into something I am not interested in.
Ok, now I'm confused again, because I asked you point blank if it was your position that there is only room in this whole franchise for your personal preference and no one else's. You told me yes, and this lines up with what you previously said. You were unsatisfied with a world that included every Warcraft I/II element in it unless it also extended to Kalimdor. To simplify it for where our interests clash: you were only satisfied (or more accurately: "interested") if the Night Elf experience was one involving the loss of whole continents, forced migrations, and death on every step - which is a direct shot at a Night Elf player's enjoyment of the game, and which precludes the Big Tent Model.

If that is not your position, then please explain what I'm missing in your prior statements.
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  #3540  
Old 01-28-2018, 04:11 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Ok, now I'm confused again, because I asked you point blank if it was your position that there is only room in this whole franchise for your personal preference and no one else's.
That's not what I said. I said that if BfA does not interest me because what it does is not interesting to me, then it does not interest me. That has nothing to do with there "being only room for my personal preference".
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  #3541  
Old 01-28-2018, 04:17 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
That's not what I said. I said that if BfA does not interest me because what it does is not interesting to me, then it does not interest me. That has nothing to do with there "being only room for my personal preference".
You quoted that exact wording in post #3532 (which was unedited just before I wrote this) and replied with "Naturally yes, If BfA does not do what I personally find interesting, then I will not find it interesting. That does not mean I am going to be mad at Blizzard like you, I will just not be interested."

Are we getting hung up on what you mean by 'interested', or would you like to take back the answer you gave previously?
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  #3542  
Old 01-28-2018, 04:17 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Nice try kid, except you are responding to something I have not said. I have no issue with people having different preferences. Nor do I have any issue with Blizzard catering to those preferences (so long as they are not detrimental to the franchise or the game as a whole), hence why I, unlike you, am not mad even if Blizzard does not cater to my own preferences. I simply have no interest in forcing myself into getting interested into something I am not interested in.
According to Kant, Kyalin has a cognitive disease that stops her from listening to your point and figure out what you're actually saying. So in that case that stupid (one who suffers from stupidity) person wouldn't care a bit about dialogue, turning a debate into a monologue.

Hey I'm not offending anyone, I'm just quoting Kant.
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  #3543  
Old 01-28-2018, 04:19 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
You quoted that exact wording in post #3532 and replied with "Naturally yes, If BfA does not do what I personally find interesting, then I will not find it interesting. That does not mean I am going to be mad at Blizzard like you, I will just not be interested."

Are we getting hung up on what you mean by 'interested', or would you like to take back the answer you gave previously?
I stand by it. Not my fault you can't comprehend it.
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  #3544  
Old 01-28-2018, 04:43 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Very well then.

Marthen, I think your unwillingness to defend the position that it appeared to me you took speaks for itself on whether that position constitutes a good model for an MMO. Your evasiveness on the matter is disappointing, but I do appreciate the conversation, as always.

It's unfortunate that Blizzard seems to like that model at the moment, or something approaching it, at least with regard to the Night Elf player's experience. The fall of the Undercity does fit nicely into the Big Tent model because the Forsaken still get a lot of competent, even heroic moments based on what we have seen so far. Teldrassil so far doesn't try. So to put a cap on my prior discussion with IGOD, which this conversation did a good job in informing - that's why I don't believe that this city for city trade so far is in any way even.

For now I feel I've made my point. I'm going to step away from this thread for a bit to make room for other topics.
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  #3545  
Old 01-28-2018, 04:51 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Very well then.

Marthen, I think your unwillingness to defend the position that it appeared to me you took speaks for itself on whether that position constitutes a good model for an MMO. Your evasiveness on the matter is disappointing, but I do appreciate the conversation, as always.
Sorry, I simply do not find this topic you are pursuing interesting, and I do not not see why should I force myself into something that does not interest me in my free time.That does not mean this forum or you should only follow topics that do interest me, I simply see no reason into forcing myself onto those that do not.
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  #3546  
Old 01-28-2018, 05:17 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Blizzard could have taken cues from Morrowind with how the Dark Elves were handled and apply it to the Night Elves and their relationship with the Alliance. For such an 'alien' like race that is quite disconnected in all forms from culture to society and way of lie; they seem more than just shoehorned in at this point.
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  #3547  
Old 01-28-2018, 06:51 PM
Hipnos Hipnos is offline

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It looks like they updated the playable skeleton model that you get with noggenfogger and stuff like that.

http://bfa.wowhead.com/dressing-room...08Pp5808Pp187V
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  #3548  
Old 01-28-2018, 08:43 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Old 01-28-2018, 09:25 PM
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  #3550  
Old 01-28-2018, 09:26 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Can't see shit, Capt'n
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