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  #6001  
Old 07-03-2018, 04:16 PM
Krainz Krainz is online now

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Brief lunchtime post. I have been absolutely overjoyed at the post-burning of Teldrassil world quest environments, which appear to me to show a massive successful counterattack and which seems to bridge to the mission table content. It shows the Night Elves as a formidable threat, it does so in game, it gives the Druids back, and it's an incredible seed of optimism that I can't wait to expand on.

.... and the rest of the Night Elf community does NOT appear to be with me on this.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...5517177?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...5497052?page=1
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0272175?page=1
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0132102?page=1

In the EU even, the pessimism is being led by the Russians. The RUSSIANS! Yes, people from that country famous for cripplingly depressing literature are trying to tell Blizzard to cool it with the cripplingly depressing literature. What planet am I on? That's like a Texan telling you that you've got too much freedom with those fries. (That or perhaps it's a sign that a depressing game produces a much different reaction than does a depressing book)

Now true, the discussion suffers from a few defects. Chief among them are that the defense of a more optimistic impression is mostly being led by apologists who still think that patting Night Elf fans on the head and saying "there there, you were never great anyway and you should feel proud to have died so well to the glorious Untotreich - and hey, at least you didn't have to deal with this other calamity buried in the backstory that no player ever had to experience!" is a good way to make people feel better about this. I don't know why the other side insists on defending pre-burning content, but even the mention of the post-burning content is being overshadowed by the scenario that preceded it.

I don't know if it's just not seen as enough or if people haven't picked up on it, but this should be of concern.
I've told you many times that the average Night Elf fan's tastes and standards are way different from yours. Maybe you can see that now.

Remember that poll about sentinels on Stormwind?
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  #6002  
Old 07-03-2018, 04:54 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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With no PvP season end warning this week (which usually is given two weeks prior, but there have been cases of one week forewarnings), I assume patch won't be available next week. So, July 17th at the earliest, I guess.
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  #6003  
Old 07-03-2018, 05:04 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Face it, the game devs have wanted since WotLK at the latest for the Alliance's Faction Story to be Stormwind with Sidekicks (see Genn and Valen) and still want that now. Other Races' actions should be seen in the light of "How can they fit in with Stormwind?" and associated.

The NEs are too disconnected from Humanity to be like the Dwarves or even Gilneas, have far less ties to the Light/Naaru than both Humans and Draenei, have no Racial Rivals among the Horde (ala Human VS Orc and Worgen VS Undead), their leaders don't have any obvious relevance to the Wrynn Dynasty. Combining all that, it's no surprise to see Human Potential and NEs squatting in Stormwind.

I wonder if the devs regret not just having playable Alliance High Elves.

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  #6004  
Old 07-03-2018, 05:46 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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I'm starting to think things would have worked out much better if vanilla had the night elves as a Horde race and the high/blood elves as an Alliance race (Forsaken would be an expansion race, maybe in BC with them reimagined as counterpart to the draenei for the "default anti-Legion race" (since the Scourge was created by the Legion, and the orcs are busy being the everyman Horde race) but super evil instead of super holy.
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  #6005  
Old 07-03-2018, 06:26 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
I'm starting to think things would have worked out much better if vanilla had the night elves as a Horde race and the high/blood elves as an Alliance race (Forsaken would be an expansion race, maybe in BC with them reimagined as counterpart to the draenei for the "default anti-Legion race" (since the Scourge was created by the Legion, and the orcs are busy being the everyman Horde race) but super evil instead of super holy.
I've been saying that since WoW was unveiling its races.

But it's too late to go back now.
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  #6006  
Old 07-03-2018, 06:55 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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didnt the enemies of the NEs used to be the Orcs? I mean they killed Cenarius and proceeded to ruin Ashenvale. Of all the people who I would not think the Elves would ally with, it would be the Horde, especially after wc3.
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  #6007  
Old 07-03-2018, 07:25 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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didnt the enemies of the NEs used to be the Orcs? I mean they killed Cenarius and proceeded to ruin Ashenvale. Of all the people who I would not think the Elves would ally with, it would be the Horde, especially after wc3.
The Orcs and Undead both invading their home didn't stop the Blood Elves from going Horde (out of convenience sure).
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  #6008  
Old 07-03-2018, 08:29 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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didnt the enemies of the NEs used to be the Orcs? I mean they killed Cenarius and proceeded to ruin Ashenvale. Of all the people who I would not think the Elves would ally with, it would be the Horde, especially after wc3.
Blizzard could always said that those were Grom's orcs, and that Thrall was not to blame for Cenarius' demise. Also, the Horde fought side-by-side with the night elves in Hyjal after all that, so there was a big chance of them finding common ground. Finally, tauren could also be used as diplomats between night elves and orcs.
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  #6009  
Old 07-04-2018, 03:46 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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There are nighthaven npcs on the ptr.That kill horde.

Nevermind I saw wrong, but there were implications of Neutral characters joining the Night elves against the horde.

Also Given 9.0 is pointing heavily towards Lich king 2.0 or death expansion, (do i need to point out all the things? )

I think sylvanas will be the end boss after nzoth.
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  #6010  
Old 07-04-2018, 04:48 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Blizzard could always said that those were Grom's orcs, and that Thrall was not to blame for Cenarius' demise. Also, the Horde fought side-by-side with the night elves in Hyjal after all that, so there was a big chance of them finding common ground. Finally, tauren could also be used as diplomats between night elves and orcs.
Not to mention Cenarius figured out the Orcs were not corrupted monsters during his stay in the Emerald Dream and pardoned them for killing him, deeming it all a misunderstanding which also had the adverse effect of removing a solid motivation for the Night Elves opposing the Horde and being part of the Alliance in the first place. (Yes, there's also the Warsong attacking Ashenvale rather than using diplomacy, but that's another kettle of fish that could have been avoided if Night Elves had just went Horde.)

They don't even really do anything to instill pro-Alliance sentiments in Night Elf fans. From what I've seen of the fanbase on the forums, they dislike being Alliance and dislike the overarching human aesthetic which is intrinsic to the Alliance aesthetic, and just overall see their involvement with the other races to be homogenization. That doesn't really foster a good sense of camaraderie that is necessary for faction pride. I'm not a High Elf supporter, but my sympathy for why people want them grows the more I think about how they would have done far better for making Alliance feel more proud as a faction than Night Elves do, because the Night Elf fanbase just keeps blaming the Alliance for their story woes.
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  #6011  
Old 07-04-2018, 05:08 AM
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I wonder if the devs regret not just having playable Alliance High Elves.
Considering the void-flavored middlefinger they concockted only a couple months ago i really, really doubt that.
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  #6012  
Old 07-04-2018, 06:01 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Considering the void-flavored middlefinger they concockted only a couple months ago i really, really doubt that.
Nah he is probably right. I think it was Metzen who said he regrets putting blood elves on the Horde. And then you have all this meandering loyalty crap with defector blood elves becoming void elves, Lor'themar wanting to switch sides, high elves existing and playing a large role in the story and one not entirely adversarial to blood elves. Blood elf NPCs are often dismissive and downright insulting of their allies (I wish there was an option of beating up Devo in Stormtalon for saying "we are running out of big dumb orcs to throw at the enemy" and you could probably find worse offenders) and other crap in that vein.

I think it is quite likely that belves will go their own way in a future warcraft game or even go back to the Alliance. But ofc by that point so many people who play belves and love belves will be die hard Horde loyalists so that will just create another mess on top of the ones we have now.
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  #6013  
Old 07-04-2018, 06:32 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Considering the void-flavored middlefinger they concockted only a couple months ago i really, really doubt that.
I think Blizzard is as mixed on its stance on High Elves as the playerbase is. For example, I was arguing with a High Elf fan onetime and he actually linked me one of the devs who said she supported High Elves on twitter and I just bet that the blues gave attention to the High Elf request threads out of more than just to reduce the clutter it was taking up on the forums. The High Elf discord has a community manager as a member too. (Who still hasn't left despite the community going complete apeshit over Ion's answer to why they went with Void Elves instead.)

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Nah he is probably right. I think it was Metzen who said he regrets putting blood elves on the Horde. And then you have all this meandering loyalty crap with defector blood elves becoming void elves, Lor'themar wanting to switch sides, high elves existing and playing a large role in the story and one not entirely adversarial to blood elves. Blood elf NPCs are often dismissive and downright insulting of their allies (I wish there was an option of beating up Devo in Stormtalon for saying "we are running out of big dumb orcs to throw at the enemy" and you could probably find worse offenders) and other crap in that vein.

I think it is quite likely that belves will go their own way in a future warcraft game or even go back to the Alliance. But ofc by that point so many people who play belves and love belves will be die hard Horde loyalists so that will just create another mess on top of the ones we have now.
Yeah... it's from this article.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/mi...zen-interview/

"I'm trying to think of Horde races. I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." - Metzen

/lol
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  #6014  
Old 07-04-2018, 06:48 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Brief lunchtime post. I have been absolutely overjoyed at the post-burning of Teldrassil world quest environments, which appear to me to show a massive successful counterattack and which seems to bridge to the mission table content. It shows the Night Elves as a formidable threat, it does so in game, it gives the Druids back, and it's an incredible seed of optimism that I can't wait to expand on.

.... and the rest of the Night Elf community does NOT appear to be with me on this.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...5517177?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...5497052?page=1
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0272175?page=1
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0132102?page=1

In the EU even, the pessimism is being led by the Russians. The RUSSIANS! Yes, people from that country famous for cripplingly depressing literature are trying to tell Blizzard to cool it with the cripplingly depressing literature. What planet am I on? That's like a Texan telling you that you've got too much freedom with those fries. (That or perhaps it's a sign that a depressing game produces a much different reaction than does a depressing book)

Now true, the discussion suffers from a few defects. Chief among them are that the defense of a more optimistic impression is mostly being led by apologists who still think that patting Night Elf fans on the head and saying "there there, you were never great anyway and you should feel proud to have died so well to the glorious Untotreich - and hey, at least you didn't have to deal with this other calamity buried in the backstory that no player ever had to experience!" is a good way to make people feel better about this. I don't know why the other side insists on defending pre-burning content, but even the mention of the post-burning content is being overshadowed by the scenario that preceded it.

I don't know if it's just not seen as enough or if people haven't picked up on it, but this should be of concern.
Happy for you. I'd be content as well with this, if not for Tyrande's character re-assassination (I know she was character assassinated in Mists of Pandaria, but Chronicle and Val'Sharah made, until now, some sort of rehabilitation possible), which has soured the whole thing for me. Unless my little theory about Teldrassil and all proves true, which I am pretty much sceptical of at this point, that part kills it for me.
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  #6015  
Old 07-04-2018, 07:19 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Not to mention Cenarius figured out the Orcs were not corrupted monsters during his stay in the Emerald Dream and pardoned them for killing him, deeming it all a misunderstanding which also had the adverse effect of removing a solid motivation for the Night Elves opposing the Horde and being part of the Alliance in the first place. (Yes, there's also the Warsong attacking Ashenvale rather than using diplomacy, but that's another kettle of fish that could have been avoided if Night Elves had just went Horde.)

They don't even really do anything to instill pro-Alliance sentiments in Night Elf fans. From what I've seen of the fanbase on the forums, they dislike being Alliance and dislike the overarching human aesthetic which is intrinsic to the Alliance aesthetic, and just overall see their involvement with the other races to be homogenization. That doesn't really foster a good sense of camaraderie that is necessary for faction pride. I'm not a High Elf supporter, but my sympathy for why people want them grows the more I think about how they would have done far better for making Alliance feel more proud as a faction than Night Elves do, because the Night Elf fanbase just keeps blaming the Alliance for their story woes.
I think a lot of that has to do with how they tried to integrate the Night Elves into the Alliance the first time. Night Elf fans mostly appreciate the unique identity, and relative independence of the race they chose, and Blizzard made repeated hammer blows to that - I guess to force us into liking the Alliance. If that was the idea, it seriously didn't work. A Little Patience wrecked our faction leader for the benefit of overall Alliance storytelling. The High King role directly threatened the feeling of autonomy we rather liked. We saw Night Elven NPCs in Stormwind armor and tabards.

In short, they tried to ram the Alliance down our throats rather than trying to integrate the Night Elves with care to preserving their identity, the respect for their leadership, and their autonomy. The result was a hyperparanoid fanbase wary of the faction they are supposed to identify with.

You may recall, that was the biggest concern I had with BfA, not that Teldrassil was being destroyed, but the idea being popularized by forum vultures with a desire to spew their world building pitches everywhere of the Night Elves setting up in the Eastern Kingdoms, to supposedly sit under the thumb of Alliance homogenization forever. Remember that term "constructively dead"? That was the headspace in which it was born.

BfA has plenty of issues, but it is better at handling integration. The continental swap plan appears to have been scrapped, and as I know I have said before, the Night Elves show up at Lordaeron using their own armor and their own siege equipment. Whatever nitpicks I might have with the cinematic armor don't really matter when I go to consider that they took the time to give the Night Elves a new set of armor to begin with - one that calls back to the themes and identity that fans like myself have been screaming for.

That's not going to magically make people forget the past few years, but it's a damn good place to start.

Edit @ Marthen, Re: Tyrande

I guess it sort of helps for me that I have considered Tyrande to be a lost cause to begin with ever since ALP, but what happened to her here is definitely still weighing down my overall view. I don't think I've done a good enough job at highlighting that issues still exist for me, and this is very much one of them.
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  #6016  
Old 07-04-2018, 08:22 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
In short, they tried to ram the Alliance down our throats rather than trying to integrate the Night Elves with care to preserving their identity, the respect for their leadership, and their autonomy. The result was a hyperparanoid fanbase wary of the faction they are supposed to identify with.
Exactly!

Night elves should be portrayed as a race that cooperates with the Alliance rather than serve it. They are the odd man out within the Alliance, and should be portrayed as such. Even the worgen seem to fit in it better, despite the visual dissonance, due to its gilnean origins and customs

Quote:
the idea being popularized by forum vultures with a desire to spew their world building pitches everywhere of the Night Elves setting up in the Eastern Kingdoms, to supposedly sit under the thumb of Alliance homogenization forever. Remember that term "constructively dead"? That was the headspace in which it was born.
Not sure if you are including my Duskwood suggestion, but, like I said, that was meant only as a starting point to reaffirm night elf identity. Rather than fitting into Duskwood, the kaldorei would change it to fit their needs. And it would just be a place for them to lick their wounds and gather strength while planning their glorious return to Kalimdor.

Quote:
The continental swap plan appears to have been scrapped
I don't think so. I still believe we will see an Alliance-controlled EK and a Horde-controlled Kalimdor by the end of BfA. But this does not mean there won't be presence of the opposite faction in those continents. And you can bet the night elves will be the ones leading the resistance to reclaim their ancestral lands.
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  #6017  
Old 07-04-2018, 08:41 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Exactly!

Night elves should be portrayed as a race that cooperates with the Alliance rather than serve it. They are the odd man out within the Alliance, and should be portrayed as such. Even the worgen seem to fit in it better, despite the visual dissonance, due to its gilnean origins and customs
I mean, I don't think the Alliance in general should be considered as something that its member races serve. I think it's a vehicle for cooperation - and that's not to say that we can't have some integrated units. It's just that you have to take care that the racial identities and themes are being preserved. - That can bring a lot to the table as well with various participants bringing their various strengths in that make the Alliance better - as opposed to older ideas of throwing people in human armor and calling it a day.

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Not sure if you are including my Duskwood suggestion, but, like I said, that was meant only as a starting point to reaffirm night elf identity. Rather than fitting into Duskwood, the kaldorei would change it to fit their needs. And it would just be a place for them to lick their wounds and gather strength while planning their glorious return to Kalimdor.

I don't think so. I still believe we will see an Alliance-controlled EK and a Horde-controlled Kalimdor by the end of BfA. But this does not mean there won't be presence of the opposite faction in those continents. And you can bet the night elves will be the ones leading the resistance to reclaim their ancestral lands.
I am not specifically citing your Duskwood idea, but I am including it, yes. Now, I think I understand it better - that it's meant to be a temporary thing - but you can't honestly expect me to trust Blizzard with the idea that it will actually be temporary. Not with the incremental way the implemented the High King as a de-facto hereditary monarch, or the chunk-by-chunk erosion of the Night Elves during what I hope I can soon call the "dark age" of the Night Elves.

No, they need to be fighting in Kalimdor, they need to be shown as striking back hard instead of retreating under the wing of Stormwind. Thankfully, post-burning Darkshore taken with the Mission Tables that I can now trust because counterattacks are being portrayed appears to show them doing just that.
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:39 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Like I said, the devs see the Alliance as Stormwind. Other Races' roles are dependent on how they serve the Wrynns. The NEs were too distant, too alien in culture, none of their leaders had any notable ties to them.
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Old 07-04-2018, 06:47 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I agree with you both, Kyalin and Deicide, I definitely don't think Night Elves need to be subservient to humans. I think the idea of them being written more as loyal, albeit distant, allies with their own themes and concepts well intact is a much better route to go than to try to make them into something they never should be, which is purple high elves.

Though I have my own disagreements in regards to whether or not story is an example of a Night Elf being subservient to a Human and find certain cases to be a symptom of crying wolf when one isn't there, but I will at least consider that such feelings are not without merit and that whether I agree with it or not doesn't mean that I'm arguing for Night Elves to be subservient to Humans.

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elves should be portrayed as a race that cooperates with the Alliance rather than serve it. They are the odd man out within the Alliance, and should be portrayed as such. Even the worgen seem to fit in it better, despite the visual dissonance, due to its gilnean origins and customs.
In some cases I favor Worgen to be part of the Alliance's Big Four in lieu of High Elves, seemingly since while they are bestial and monstrous they still have an otherwise civilized culture and an industrial side to them that clicks well with Dwarves and Gnomes.

It's just an issue that Blizzard needs to step outside of its bubble and realize they fit fine in medieval style buildings and that it perhaps would not hurt to put their architecture next to Stormwind and Dwarven style buildings in major outposts, the former of which I think they're starting to learn as of Legion.
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Old 07-04-2018, 06:59 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline
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I'm starting to think things would have worked out much better if vanilla had the night elves as a Horde race and the high/blood elves as an Alliance race (Forsaken would be an expansion race, maybe in BC with them reimagined as counterpart to the draenei for the "default anti-Legion race" (since the Scourge was created by the Legion, and the orcs are busy being the everyman Horde race) but super evil instead of super holy.
Forsaken as an alliance race was the original idea if I remember correctly
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Old 07-06-2018, 09:17 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Happy for you. I'd be content as well with this, if not for Tyrande's character re-assassination (I know she was character assassinated in Mists of Pandaria, but Chronicle and Val'Sharah made, until now, some sort of rehabilitation possible), which has soured the whole thing for me.
Pretty much this. But in all honesty, that final scene drags down every single major character in it.

Malfurion is arbitrarily beaten in a situation that makes no sense for him to be in. Bad but considering i can't see him feasibly losing if they kept him at his actual level it can be somewhat handwaved. But if you don't have the stones to actually kill a character then don't put him in a scenario he can't possibly escape without an asspull because of course that's what we got.

Sylvanas comes off as incredibly stupid for just walking away while Malf is down. There is legitimately no reason whatsoever she should have to do that in that situation. Malfurion alone is the single most dangerous thing the Night Elves have and you don't even finish the job? This goes double when it is well established the one you are leaving to finish set job has a lot of issues with you and your combat methodology. Then, after said individual lets said threat go without any kind of sound reasoning she keeps him in a command position for the Undercity scenario later. Great followup.

Meanwhile Saurfang invents a new definition of honour on the spot from the spontaneous guilt that apparently developed from blindsiding the most important military target in a war hes commanding. The same individual that he has priorly admitted to having no chance to win against whilst fighting honourably.

And then there's Tyrande. Hoo boy.
I'd bet all the gold on my account that there will never be another opportunity as ripe as this was to put Tyrande back to the WC3 self people have been asking for since the start of goddamn Wow.
Her entire home continent and city is going up in flames thanks to the Horde and she arrives in the nick of time right at the climax to...run away? Fucking seriously?
This is the premier expansion setup event, part of the most important questline in the entire expansion and no-one thought of a way they could possibly depict her that didn't somehow actually top the previous apex in shit characterization?

To summarise:
Has literally no role throughout the main questline in the most important/relevant scenario to her race since WC3. Check
....yet shows up out of nowhere at the climax despite prior writing establishing she is elsewhere. Check
Completely misses the perfect opportunity to show military competence by actually utilising her otherwise perfect ambush scenario. Whines at enemy instead. Check
Has no motivations beyond attending to Malfurion. Check
Runs away, this time at the command of said enemy. Check

The most aggravating thing about the whole thing is you could keep the entire outcome pretty damn similiar without ruining the characterisation of the individuals involved. Spitballing here:

Scene plays as normal but Malfurion is far more seriously injured before going down. Sylvanas then, instead of arbitrarily leaving, goes to execute him but is blocked by Saurfang who believes Malfurion deserves a death more honourable than an arrow from an enemy he cannot face. They briefly argue but Sylvanas eventually retires reasoning she can't be stuck arguing when the fighting is ongoing and her troops actively need her leadership and her arrows were poisoned anyway.
Saurfang has a generic last rites orcish type speech but as he goes to finish Furion he is ambushed by Tyrande leading a hastily mustered counterattack (presumably from a portal from Stormwind but this doesn't necessarily need to be shown). Saurfang briefly attempts to hold his ground but he takes a few too many arrows and Tyrande manages to create an opening for Malfurion to escape into the forest before the rest of the Horde can reinforce him. Once away, as Alliance we learn that though the tree is lost the fight on Darkshore is far from over.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not but i made it up on the spot without changing the overall outcome or much event deviation. I expect better from people paid to write it.

Last edited by Sa'danak; 07-06-2018 at 09:19 AM..
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  #6022  
Old 07-06-2018, 05:31 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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http://www.wowhead.com/news=285426/n...-dressing-room

New kul tiran male face options were added recently.
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Old 07-07-2018, 12:31 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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So I was humming the Arathi Warfront Alliance music to myself when I noticed something about it that I get the sense I am the first to notice because I'm a giant weirdo


0:50 to 1:10 is the "Return to Lordaeron" theme from Warcraft 3, from the Alliance finale cinematic when the bell is ringing and the drawbridge falls.

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Old 07-07-2018, 04:13 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
So I was humming the Arathi Warfront Alliance music to myself when I noticed something about it that I get the sense I am the first to notice because I'm a giant weirdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVoc0PunrMk

0:50 to 1:10 is the "Return to Lordaeron" theme from Warcraft 3, from the Alliance finale cinematic when the bell is ringing and the drawbridge falls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c29e44keadc
Yeah! There are soooo many references in the warfront music! Alliance version for both Arathi warfront and Siege of Lordaeron are simply amazing and I love hearing them.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:56 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I feel like the theme tried to capture several different kingdom motifs in one track. 0:50 to 1:10 is indeed Lordaeron, and I think 1:30 is Gilneas. Fits perfectly since Stromgarde and Arathi itself is the birthplace of human civilization.
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