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  #52651  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:37 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
The Taliban came out of the various mujahideen groups that Reagan financed.
Nope. The Taliban didn't seize control of Afghanistan til 1996. They ousted the Islamic State of Afghanistan and replaced it with the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The former became the Northern Alliance and we worked with them at the start of the Afghan campaign and put them back in control.

It is more of a lesson that we shouldn't half ass things and abandon people. These kind of actions require commitment because if we wash our hands of them and leave other powers will come and take over that are less friendly to us. You know just like what happened in Iraq with ISIS.
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  #52652  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:39 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
The Taliban came out of the various mujahideen groups that Reagan financed.
The mujahideen he financed in Afghanistan was meant to fuck with their Soviet occupiers...

Unintended consequences, and all that...
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  #52653  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:49 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Nope. The Taliban didn't seize control of Afghanistan til 1996. They ousted the Islamic State of Afghanistan and replaced it with the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The former became the Northern Alliance and we worked with them at the start of the Afghan campaign and put them back in control.
The early members of the Taliban were the same people that were in those mujahideen groups is what I'm saying.

Quote:
It is more of a lesson that we shouldn't half ass things and abandon people. These kind of actions require commitment because if we wash our hands of them and leave other powers will come and take over that are less friendly to us. You know just like what happened in Iraq with ISIS.
You're not wrong about abandoning people like the guys in Afghanistan, though the merits of doing so is another argument I don't know much about. Iraq's mess had more to do with the de-Ba'athification than the way we pulled out, honestly. Dubya and President Cheney basically created Daesh when they did that.
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  #52654  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
The early members of the Taliban were the same people that were in those mujahideen groups is what I'm saying.
Were they? The Taliban kicked out the government that succeeded the communist one. That was the one we supported. The Taliban were supported by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE up until 9/11. After 9/11 we worked with the previous government who was in exile and put them back in power. We shouldn't have let the Taliban kick them out.

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You're not wrong about abandoning people like the guys in Afghanistan, though the merits of doing so is another argument I don't know much about. Iraq's mess had more to do with the de-Ba'athification than the way we pulled out, honestly. Dubya and President Cheney basically created Daesh when they did that.
De-Ba'athification was a mistake but it wasn't the reason Daesh exists. Don't fall the for bigotry of low exceptions here. They are responsible for their own actions. ISIS was pretty much defeated while the US was there and then against the advice of the generals we quickly pulled out. Obama didn't even try to renegotiate a new status of force agreement. Even his Democratic Defense Secretary Leon Panneta criticized him for this in his book.

Ex-defense secretaries among toughest critics of Obama’s military strategy

It is what happens when some dumb dumb pretends to understand a military operation or a foreign country and asserts that judgement over the advice of smarter people.
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  #52655  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:10 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
De-Ba'athification was a mistake but it wasn't the reason Daesh exists. Don't fall the for bigotry of low exceptions here. They are responsible for their own actions. ISIS was pretty much defeated while the US was there and then against the advice of the generals we quickly pulled out. Obama didn't even try to renegotiate a new status of force agreement. Even his Democratic Defense Secretary Leon Panneta criticized him for this in his book.
When they were losing the war, Iraqi military buried a ton of weaponry in the sands. Nobody could find it after the de-Ba'athification. That is until former Ba'ath officers rallied up some troops, dug them up, and formed Daesh. They are leading Daesh to this day.
Also, to stay in Iraq would have been a war crime, IIRC. The Iraqi government didn't want us there anymore. It would have effectively been another invasion.
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  #52656  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:16 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
When they were losing the war, Iraqi military buried a ton of weaponry in the sands. Nobody could find it after the de-Ba'athification. That is until former Ba'ath officers rallied up some troops, dug them up, and formed Daesh. They are leading Daesh to this day.

Also, to stay in Iraq would have been a war crime, IIRC. The Iraqi government didn't want us there anymore. It would have effectively been another invasion.
I don't think you understand how status of force agreements work. You negotiate to try and extend them. You use assistance as leverage. This is EXACTLY when defense secretary Leon Panneta said Obama failed to do. He wasn't a Republican. He was a Democrat that was appointed by Obama who broke ranks to criticize someone when he knew he was wrong.

PANETTA’S MEMOIR BLASTS OBAMA ON HIS LEADERSHIP, BLAMES HIM FOR STATE OF IRAQ AND SYRIA

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  #52657  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:17 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I don't think you understand how status of force agreements work. You negotiate to try and extend them. You use assistance as leverage. This is EXACTLY when defense secretary Leon Panneta said Obama failed to do. He wasn't a Republican. He was a Democrat that was appointed by Obama who broke ranks to criticize someone when he knew he was wrong.

PANETTA’S MEMOIR BLASTS OBAMA ON HIS LEADERSHIP, BLAMES HIM FOR STATE OF IRAQ AND SYRIA
If the Iraqis wanted assistance, why didn't they say so?
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  #52658  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:26 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
If the Iraqis wanted assistance, why didn't they say so?
According to Leon Panetta some of them did privately.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.23d3950ebf05

Quote:
In clear and unequivocal terms, former Defense Secretary and CIA director Leon Panetta confirms precisely what conservative critics, lawmakers, former officials, tactical experts and military officials have said about Iraq: President Obama was advised to keep a stay-behind force and warned about the consequences if he did not. He preferred to keep his campaign pledge to get all the troops out. The White House therefore allowed negotiations to falter for a status of forces agreement and bragged it had gotten all the troops out. Iraq has now collapsed.
http://time.com/3453840/leon-panetta-iraqi-troop/

Quote:
Under Secretary of Defense Michèle Flournoy did her best to press that position, which reflected not just my views but also those of the military commanders in the region and the Joint Chiefs. But the President’s team at the White House pushed back, and the differences occasionally became heated. Flournoy argued our case, and those on our side viewed the White House as so eager to rid itself of Iraq that it was willing to withdraw rather than lock in arrangements that would preserve our influence and interests.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/03/politi...-blames-obama/

Quote:
He writes that his views were shared by other military commanders in the region and the Joint Chiefs of Staff but he believes that the
Commander-in-Chief could have done more. Iraqi refugees flock to Jordan

"Officials there seemed content to endorse an agreement if State and Defense could reach one, but without the President's active advocacy, al-Maliki was allowed to slip away. The deal never materialized," writes Panetta.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/leon-pan...aq-withdrawal/

Quote:
He said that Under Secretary of Defense Michele Flournoy advocated that position - which was shared by military commanders in the region and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Panetta writes - but found that Mr. Obama's team at the White House "pushed back, and the differences occasionally became heated."

"Those on our side viewed the White House as so eager to rid itself of Iraq that it was willing to withdraw rather than lock in arrangements that would preserve our influence and interests," he said.

Panetta writes of his frustration at the White House, which he says coordinated negotiations but never really led them. And without Mr. Obama's "personal advocacy," a deal with Maliki was allowed "to slip away."

Critics of the administration have suggested that a residual U.S. troop presence would have at least mitigated Maliki's sectarian leadership that weakened the army to the point that it was incapable of stopping ISIS' advance
I thought that a Democrat criticizing Obama like this would make some liberals more keen on this issue. I was a little thrilled seeing his honest book but apparently nothing can convince people to break ranks from Obama.
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  #52659  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:33 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I don't see anything about Iraqis asking for help in there, just a lot of people advocating for a probable breach of international law. There was no way to come out on top, no easy answer. Iraq's fate was sealed before we left.
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  #52660  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:34 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I don't see anything about Iraqis asking for help in there, just a lot of people advocating for a probable breach of international law. There was no way to come out on top, no easy answer. Iraq's fate was sealed before we left.
You should probably read them then.
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  #52661  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:35 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You should probably read them then.
Anything not hearsay?
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  #52662  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:43 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Anything not hearsay?
Hearsay?

If he tried and failed it would have been one thing. He didn't even try though. He abandoned the Iraqis to be butchered and sold into slavery by ISIS. It was the can being kicked down the road and no peace was bought and now we have to go back there.

Screw Obama and good riddance to him. Not more presidents like that.
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  #52663  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:48 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Hearsay?

If he tried and failed it would have been one thing. He didn't even try though. He abandoned the Iraqis to be butchered and sold into slavery by ISIS. It was the can being kicked down the road and no peace was bought and now we have to go back there.

Screw Obama and good riddance to him. Not more presidents like that.
We didn't abandon them. They kicked us out. I heard they offered to let us stay on the condition that we be subject to Iraqi law while there. Would you want to deploy into that? Fuck that.
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  #52664  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:59 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Save me General Kelly. No one understands meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

Quote:
Responding to a question about morale in a recent interview, Marine Gen. John Kelly said, "It's certainly an emotional moment for anyone who has ever been there. I'd say to Marines: 'We don't get a vote. We go where the nation sends us. Our job is to win — we won.' "

To some degree, military opinions track those of the broader civilian world, which also reflect an increasingly negative view of the war. Yet service members are unlikely to question the reasons for invading Iraq in 2003 or the execution of the eight-year combat operation. Instead, they focus their pessimism on the stewardship of Iraq after U.S. troops withdrew in 2011 — both by the Iraqi government as well as the Obama administration, which has essentially taken a hands-off approach to Iraq for nearly three years.

"If you piece all of those together, what you get is a military viewpoint something like the following: We left something like success behind, and since then events since then have wrecked that," said Peter Feaver, a professor and military expert at Duke University.

"The majority of the military would probably reject the interpretation that, 'Oh, this was a chimera in 2011, this was fake success.' I think they would say 'No, it was real, but it was undone.' "...

Troops intuitively understand that final decisions ultimately land on Obama's desk. And support for Obama within the military — never especially high — has dropped significantly since he took office, according to the Military Times survey. In 2009, 35 percent of service members approved of the way Obama was "handling of his job as commander in chief." This year, that figure dropped below 15 percent.

That lack of support for Obama may underpin some service members' views on Iraq today, Feaver said.

"It's very hard to mobilize the military to follow an uncertain trumpet," he said in an interview after reviewing the results of the Military Times poll. "If they have doubts about the commander in chief, they are going to have doubts about a major military operation.
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  #52665  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:01 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Do you think we should have violated international law, overthrown the government we had been building, and put another in its place?
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  #52666  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:04 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Do you think we should have violated international law, overthrown the government we had been building, and put another in its place?
We didn't have to.
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  #52667  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:09 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
We didn't have to.
Look, I respect your opinion on this, but we have nothing but hypothetical scenarios and old whispers to show that may have been possible. From where I'm sitting, it doesn't look like it was.
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  #52668  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:34 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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  #52669  
Old 04-21-2017, 05:57 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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More voter suppression going on for Georgia's runoff election.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58...b06b9cb91505f8
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  #52670  
Old 04-21-2017, 06:59 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
More voter suppression going on for Georgia's runoff election.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58...b06b9cb91505f8
They might be trying to challenge those laws in court. The Supreme Court could deem it unconstitutional and strike it down.
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  #52671  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:06 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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They might be trying to challenge those laws in court. The Supreme Court could deem it unconstitutional and strike it down.
Yeah, after the election. Even if it gets stopped before, many people being told for weeks before the election that they won't be able to vote won't bother trying. Classic voter suppression.
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  #52672  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:11 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Yeah, after the election. Even if it gets stopped before, many people being told for weeks before the election that they won't be able to vote won't bother trying. Classic voter suppression.
Why didn't they register 30 days prior?
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  #52673  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:28 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Why didn't they register 30 days prior?
Things happen.
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  #52674  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:42 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

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Things happen.
By things do you mean Laziness?
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  #52675  
Old 04-21-2017, 08:03 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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By things do you mean Laziness?
Some people work for a living.
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