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View Poll Results: When did WC lore jump the shark?
WC2 0 0%
WC3 2 4.55%
TFT 0 0%
WOW Vanilla 4 9.09%
BC 5 11.36%
WotLK 5 11.36%
Cataclysm 17 38.64%
MoP 2 4.55%
WoD 2 4.55%
It never did 7 15.91%
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  #151  
Old 03-26-2015, 05:43 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
Actually giving Paladins to the Horde and Shamans to the Alliance was a pretty bad idea. Yeah it makes balancing easier, but balance shouldn't be the main goal (the most balanced game would just not have different classes or factions in the first place anyway).
Druids should only be Night Elf men.

Actually, the NEs shouldn't be in the Alliance if they have to play second-fiddle to humans.

Last edited by Galdus; 03-26-2015 at 05:46 PM..
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  #152  
Old 03-26-2015, 05:51 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I think we're on the same page. The race concept was cool and understandable, the way they did it not so much.

I think a "holy demon" type race would have made a great addition to the Alliance, just that they retconned the lore too badly to accomplish that. I get they're aloof and haughty, but I don't see those things as particularly making them unlikely to see on the Alliance. Gilneans and Night Elves have a level of haughtiness and aloofness to them as well, but they're still firmly Alliance, for example.
The Night Elves are at least firmly native to Azeroth and has fought the Scourge themselves during the Third War. Also, the Night Elves, while being ancient enemies of the Legion, strike me as being mostly interested in preserving their civilization, while the Draenei seem intent on waging a cosmic war against the Legion. So if they're staying on Azeroth (I think they repaired the Exodar by the beginning of Cata or some time around it) to recruit more soldiers against the Legion or something, it doesn't make long-term sense to be loyal to a particular faction. I think the problem comes down to the Draenei being so grandiose in concept but not so much in action.


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Druids should only be Night Elf men.

Actually, the NEs shouldn't be in the Alliance if they have to play second-fiddle to humans.

I agree, and in fact restricting NE druids to be male would have had no effect on game mechanics.

I think it's ok to have the NE less active than the Humans, if it were justified by something along the lines of: NE mostly mind their own business and only spares a small amount of its forces for Alliance campaigns. But that doesn't seem to be the case... And how presumptuous of Varian to call himself the High King of the Alliance, when Velen and Tyrande (25000+ and 10000+ years old respectively) are so much more experienced.

Last edited by Siegrune; 03-26-2015 at 06:01 PM..
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  #153  
Old 03-26-2015, 05:59 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
Druids should only be Night Elf men.

Actually, the NEs shouldn't be in the Alliance if they have to play second-fiddle to humans.
No one should be playing second fiddle to Humans when they're Alliance because second fiddles are not how the Alliance is supposed to work.

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Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
The Night Elves are at least firmly native to Azeroth and has fought the Scourge themselves during the Third War. Also, the Night Elves, while being ancient enemies of the Legion, strike me as being mostly interested in preserving their civilization, while the Draenei seem intent on waging a cosmic war against the Legion. So if they're staying on Azeroth (I think they repaired the Exodar by the beginning of Cata or some time around it) to recruit more soldiers against the Legion or something, it doesn't make long-term sense to be loyal to a particular faction. I think the problem comes down to the Draenei being so grandiose in concept but not so much in action.
Are Draenei really that grandiose? They are still people with their own foibles, however downplayed that may be.

But yeah, I'm not particularly comfortable with the implications of the Army of Light, especially if Blizzard plans for more faction war down the road. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
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  #154  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:00 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Cata: Deathwing and the twilight's hammer were terribly executed villains, the expansion was barely relevant to its own story (you can just read the out-of-universe materials and go straight to the final raid, and the only thing you'd miss is Wrathion's introduction... which you can only fully experience as a rogue anyway), all its concepts were underused and poorly developed, the revamp was inconsistent storywise, recycled old elements in ways that made no sense and had some truly terrible questlines, the horde characterization was thrown under the bus completely, the goblins became an utter joke of a race, Thrall was completely inappropriate for the role they forced him into, it introduced the least amount of new backstory out of any expansion (despite the fact it really needed to), the faction war was so overly dominant in questing it blocked out actually experiencing the world in a lot of places, making Garrosh and Varian as dominant as they were was an atrocious decision, it was released in a blatantly incomplete state, the worgen were dropped entirely after their introduction, and Harrison Jones became the single most featured character in the game.

That's the major ones, anyway.

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Druids should only be Night Elf men.
Eh, the gender thing never really made sense to me, unlike with the priestesses. Agreed with the night elf part though, at least for the way druids are implemented in the game at the moment.
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  #155  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:03 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Cata: Deathwing and the twilight's hammer were terribly executed villains, the expansion was barely relevant to its own story (you can just read the out-of-universe materials and go straight to the final raid, and the only thing you'd miss is Wrathion's introduction... which you can only fully experience as a rogue anyway), all its concepts were underused and poorly developed, the revamp was inconsistent storywise, recycled old elements in ways that made no sense and had some truly terrible questlines, the horde characterization was thrown under the bus completely, the goblins became an utter joke of a race, Thrall was completely inappropriate for the role they forced him into, it introduced the least amount of new backstory out of any expansion (despite the fact it really needed to), the faction war was so overly dominant in questing it blocked out actually experiencing the world in a lot of places, making Garrosh and Varian as dominant as they were was an atrocious decision, it was released in a blatantly incomplete state, the worgen were dropped entirely after their introduction, and Harrison Jones became the single most featured character in the game.

That's the major ones, anyway.
All of this, Jeffrey is succinct as usual.

Bilgewater Goblins literally act just as bad, if not worse, than the Venture Co. I honestly can't tell the difference between either of them.

And people on the SF say Gallywix, the corrupt slave trade prince, is the pinnacle of what Goblins aspire to be. Haha, no not really... should have just made the Steamwheedle join the Horde, I wouldn't weep for their loss.
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  #156  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:04 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post

Are Draenei really that grandiose? They are still people with their own foibles, however downplayed that may be.
Of course the Draenei are people too, but Velen is portrayed as a saintly figure with grandiose visions above the petty squabbles.
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  #157  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
I never played Cata first-hand, but from what information I've gathered, the problem seems to be: Deathwing acting dumb instead of being the cunning manipulator, time travel being so integral to the story, Thrall saving the world, the Aspects ending up being totally useless (the only reason the Aspects exist was... to stop an Aspect from destroying the world? So why have Aspects in the first place?).
Were they ever useful? They were always useless and keep causing problem.
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  #158  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:12 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Of course the Draenei are people too, but Velen is portrayed as a saintly figure with grandiose visions above the petty squabbles.
I agree, Velen isn't as grounded in his concept as the other faction leaders.

That's why I've long advocated that the Draenei should have a new leader, probably one that doesn't suggest running away when something like the Cataclysm happens. (However understandable that suggestion may be.)

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 03-26-2015 at 06:15 PM..
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  #159  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:16 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Were they ever useful? They were always useless and keep causing problem.
That's the point, they had never been useful so far, which means Blizzard should make them do something useful; but they didn't and their Aspect powers were terminated without doing anything useful, so now they have no chance of ever being useful, leaving a giant hole in the Titans' plans.

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I agree, Velen isn't as grounded in his concept as the other faction leaders.

That's why I've long advocated that the Draenei should have a new leader, probably one that doesn't suggest running away when something like the Cataclysm happens. (However understandable that suggestion may be.)

Wasn't it Maarad who suggested that they leave, and Velen who made the decision to stay?

I think it's ok to either leave or stay, given the right reasons, but Velen's reasoning seems weird, it's like "after talking to Anduin I just realized - after 25000 years of studies - that I have to help even the small ones and not turn away from them" instead of "we should remain on this one world that has successfully defeated Sargeras and Archimonde and recruit its inhabitants into our ranks so that we may invade Argus and take out Kil'jaden!"

Last edited by Siegrune; 03-26-2015 at 06:20 PM..
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  #160  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:23 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
I think it's ok to either leave or stay, given the right reasons, but Velen's reasoning seems weird, it's like "after talking to Anduin I just realized - after 25000 years of studies - that I have to help even the small ones and not turn away from them" instead of "we should remain on this one world that has successfully defeated Sargeras and Archimonde and recruit its inhabitants into our ranks so that we may invade Argus and take out Kil'jaden!"
Anduin is a badly written character.

Last edited by Galdus; 03-26-2015 at 06:35 PM..
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  #161  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:26 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
Wasn't it Maarad who suggested that they leave, and Velen who made the decision to stay?

I think it's ok to either leave or stay, given the right reasons, but Velen's reasoning seems weird, it's like "after talking to Anduin I just realized - after 25000 years of studies - that I have to help even the small ones and not turn away from them" instead of "we should remain on this one world that has successfully defeated Sargeras and Archimonde and recruit its inhabitants into our ranks so that we may invade Argus and take out Kil'jaden!"
Maraad suggested the Draenei leave to go fight the Legion in Velen's short story, but I'm talking more about the pre-Cata event that happened where Varian gathered up all the leaders and they all gave different ideas for how to handle Deathwing's return. (Velen suggested leaving immediately.)
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  #162  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:29 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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But yeah, I'm not particularly comfortable with the implications of the Army of Light, especially if Blizzard plans for more faction war down the road. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Blizzard probably realized Army of Light is not the most realistic scenario with the span of WoW.
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  #163  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:47 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Blizzard probably realized Army of Light is not the most realistic scenario with the span of WoW.
But that means they actually do think ahead, a trait I find difficult to believe Blizzard of possessing.
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  #164  
Old 03-26-2015, 07:28 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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In this case they might have came up with the idea in a rule of cool moment, achieved by not planning ahead, then have reality crash down on them a few years later.
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  #165  
Old 03-26-2015, 07:32 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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In this case they might have came up with the idea in a rule of cool moment, achieved by not planning ahead, then have reality crash down on them a few years later.
Which I can agree to, but where have they hinted that the Army of Light is a bad idea?
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  #166  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:08 PM
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The rag tag army without borders is better anyway. They're the only ones who could stop the crazy evil spirit, (i mean "old gold"), born from negative emotions of idiots (I mean it always existed) who were tearing ass in another country and decided the only way to have peace in the world is to use the method of those who birthed it and kill everyone. (I meant it just does BAD THINGS and it's not the fault of red and blue, not at all)

Fuck it, everything is Garrosh's fault.
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  #167  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:24 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Which I can agree to, but where have they hinted that the Army of Light is a bad idea?
They didn't, it's completely my speculation. If you really want to analyze it, Azeroth is like a spec of dust compared to the Legion. The only real way for this franchise to end is eventual Legion victory.
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  #168  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:00 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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They didn't, it's completely my speculation. If you really want to analyze it, Azeroth is like a spec of dust compared to the Legion. The only real way for this franchise to end is eventual Legion victory.
Except, Azeroth incapacitates Sargeras, permanently kills Archimonde and Mannoroth (maybe Tichondrius as well, but Blizzard seems to keep bringing back Dreadlords to life), and also defeats Kil'jaden. Moreover, Azeroth contains entities that are as powerful (Dragon Aspects) or more powerful (Old Gods) compared to Archimonde and Kil'jaden.

The problem I have with the Legion lore is that (and I'm a huge Legion fan, mind you), while we are told that the Legion is super powerful, has devoured countless worlds, and Azeroth is but a spec of dust to them, the only thing we actually get to see is this one planet defeating them multiple times and taking out every single one of its five main leaders, and we never get to see them actually destroying any planet (at least we're given a few concrete names, Xoroth and Xandros, but since we don't get to see how exactly they were destroyed, what kind of resistance there was, etc.).


Reign of Chaos worked great because at the end of the Undead Campaign, you summon Archimonde into this world and the ensuing cinematic really makes you feel with all your bones that this is an immense power, one that is surely capable of destroying the entire planet unless we get lucky. The fact that we manage to defeat him is thus made more dramatic. But ever since, there's no overwhelming display of power by the Legion that we can really relate to, and you have to wonder whether the threat of the Legion is mostly empty. For all we know, Kil'jaden could just be bluffing and the Legion may not be that powerful anymore.

Last edited by Siegrune; 03-26-2015 at 10:04 PM..
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  #169  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:30 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Sargeras threw the fight with Aegwyn to gain entry into Azeroth. Archimonde was beaten with cunning, not brawn. I will give you Mannoroth and Tichondrius. Kil'jaeden was beaten in the sense that his summoning was interrupted.

There is not a time where the dragon aspects were actually useful.

My hypothesis is that the Legion mostly relies on zerg tactics. Zerg something long enough and win eventually. Hence why they can get away with incompetent commanders and throw away troops.
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  #170  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:35 PM
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I always think it would be a lot more logical and interesting if Aegwyn made a deal with Sargeras to destroy the current order and create new, it would also make Medivh more tragic.

Just my fanon
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  #171  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:42 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I always think it would be a lot more logical and interesting if Aegwyn made a deal with Sargeras to destroy the current order, it would also make Medivh more tragic.
How's that? Aegwynn already expressly undid the current order by taking control of the Guardian's power out of the Council of Tirisfal's hands and trying to proactively fight to the Legion instead of maintaining the Order's predominantly reactive stance.

Aegwynn became Guardian because she wanted to. Medivh's desire to end the cycle of Guardians made sense specifically because he was born into the power, and therefore never had any choice in the matter.
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  #172  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:47 PM
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How's that? Aegwynn already expressly undid the current order by taking control of the Guardian's power out of the Council of Tirisfal's hands and trying to proactively fight to the Legion instead of maintaining the Order's predominantly reactive stance.

Medivh's desire to end the cycle of Guardians made sense specifically because he was born into the power, and therefore never had any choice in the matter.
But she couldn't really get rid off such order, Medivh still bear so much power and responsibility.

Ironically, the guardian's duty was quite similar to Sargeras' before his corruption. They probably share some feelings.
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  #173  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:52 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Ironically, the guardian's duty was quite similar to Sargeras' before his corruption. They probably share some feelings.
Not really.

Sargeras went rogue because he decided his mission was hopeless and just plain couldn't be done.

Aegwynn went rogue because she believed her mission could be done, if the Council would just let her get out there and actually do it.
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  #174  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:58 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Sargeras threw the fight with Aegwyn to gain entry into Azeroth. Archimonde was beaten with cunning, not brawn. I will give you Mannoroth and Tichondrius. Kil'jaeden was beaten in the sense that his summoning was interrupted.

There is not a time where the dragon aspects were actually useful.

My hypothesis is that the Legion mostly relies on zerg tactics. Zerg something long enough and win eventually. Hence why they can get away with incompetent commanders and throw away troops.
Sargeras threw the fight with Aegwynn, but Medivh's death at the hands of Lothar sort of killed Sargeras; he will return but he longer has direct control of the Legion.

Archimonde was beaten with cunning, but no other world had the cunning to beat Archimonde for 25000 years.

Kil'jaden I grant was not really a major victory; it's easy to imagine that the same sort of thing happened in other worlds.

The Dragon Aspects are useless (though it's really that the effect of Deathwing cancels out the effect of the other four, so that the net result is close to zero or actually negative), but still Deathwing shows that the combined might of the Aspects is something even Archimonde dare not challenge openly. If Archimonde has been devouring thousands of worlds, we are led to assume that those thousands of worlds mostly didn't have beings of power comparable to the Aspects.

The Legion's tactics actually confuse me. As you say, they seem to Zerg at times, but they also have highly powerful commanders who can single-handedly destroy entire cities. I don't really think any of the main leaders are incompetent. Kil'jaden, certainly not. Tichondrius demonstrates his competence throughout the Undead and Orc campaigns, and maybe there wasn't much that he could do to prevent his demise (it's not like he didn't see Ner'zhul's betrayal coming, Kel'Thuzad implies as much). Mannoroth was surely too confident in his hold over Grom, but otherwise seems ok. Archimonde was brutal to his subordinates, but not the extent of jeopardizing the mission; he was overconfident and rash at the end but that's kind of a plot device. Sargeras is probably powerful enough that he doesn't have to care much about tactics at all, but I grant that the Medivh operation does strike me as way too risky.
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  #175  
Old 03-27-2015, 09:17 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Not really.

Sargeras went rogue because he decided his mission was hopeless and just plain couldn't be done.

Aegwynn went rogue because she believed her mission could be done, if the Council would just let her get out there and actually do it.
Sargeras and Aegwynn both thought the current Order is shit, they both wanted to get rid of it and do things their own way.
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