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Old 03-25-2016, 12:50 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Default Bolvar's Spoiler-Filled Batman v Superman Review Thread

Note: As of the time of this initial post, I have not yet seen the film. I'm just getting warmed up here.

Last night, I decided to prep for the movie by re-watching Man of Steel on Blu Ray.

I still feel the same way I felt before - Jonathan Kent was horribly done in that movie. Jor-El was the single best father figure Kal-El had, and had it not been for his holographic posthumous presence, Superman might have become a complete douchebag.

The collateral damage issue is really hard to overcome. I mean, at the end of the film, Metropolis looks like an ENORMOUS city, larger than NYC in scope, and huge swaths of it are reduced to wasted rubble. The death toll must be in the six figures. It's the kind of catastrophic devastation America has never really seen - only Sherman's march could possibly compare, and even that isn't really close.

So, I'm going to head into this sequel thinking that, yeah, a lot of people should be rightly skeptical of Superman. He's carelessly destructive in Man of Steel, and there's no excusing it.

Nevermind that he was the reason why Zod showed up in the first place - even if you excuse that, just look at where he picks his battles, when given the option.

He's in the middle of Kansas in his first encounter. He attacks Zod at his home, and promptly plows him into the nearest urban center, trashing the city of Smallville when he could have easily kept the fight in the middle of a cornfield.

Now, he doesn't control where Zod drops the two halves of the world engine at the end, so he can't help it that he trashes everywhere around those ships, but his final fight with Zod is completely absurd. He *deliberately* smashes Zod into buildings on multiple occasions. Even once they're in space, and he can literally take the fight anywhere, he directs their descent right back into the heart of Metropolis.

So, yeah, you're kind of a dick, Superman. I get why Batman sees you as a threat. Because you are. Even if you don't mean to be. You're the sort of hero that swats a fly with a 2x4, and expects a parade when the fly is dead, but you've also smashed three windows and half the drywall in the dining room in the process.

Anyway, the rest of the movie is not that bad. The Kryptonian opening, and all of Jor-El's scenes are very pro-life, pro-liberty, pro-freedom, and pro-responsibility. "You can save her. You can save them all."

That was the message Clark needed to hear growing up. Not this "let-a-busload-of-kids-die-because-we're-scared" bullshit that Jonathan Kent filled his head with.

So, we'll see if Superman learned anything, or if he's still a conflicted child with no self-awareness and entirely too much power for anyone's good.
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:25 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I still feel the same way I felt before - Jonathan Kent was horribly done in that movie. Jor-El was the single best father figure Kal-El had, and had it not been for his holographic posthumous presence, Superman might have become a complete douchebag.
Here's a little sad spoiler for you: Papa Kent makes an appearance in form of a memory, but no Jor-El.
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:25 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Here's a little sad spoiler for you: Papa Kent makes an appearance in form of a memory, but no Jor-El.
God dammit.

I'm not mad at you for sharing that, BTW. But I would have definitely bitched about that point.
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:29 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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God dammit.

I'm not mad at you for sharing that, BTW. But I would have definitely bitched about that point.
I forgot to mention it in my yesterday's review. Still, Papa Kent's appearance is kinda heartfelt, and is mostly Clark's remembrance of better, easier times (and not of the "hide your powers and let me die" bullshit). 'Tis okay.
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:46 PM
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BvS is nothing more than an excuse for Batman to punch Superman in the face.
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:52 PM
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I saw it last night.

I was prepared for the worst. I hoped for better.

I can't say I was all that impressed, but I wasn't as disappointed as I could have been.

It's just a mediocre film. It suffers from the same malaise as Spider-Man 3 in that it tries to introduce too many new characters at once, and doesn't cultivate any of them sufficiently.

For starters - I liked Affleck's Batman. The problem is, the casual movie goer has no idea why he's not the Batman they're used to. Case in point - my wife left the film saying "Why was Batman such an asshole?"

And it's a fair question. Because while die-hard geeks will understand the backstory and pick up on the subtle hints given throughout the film, most will see this Batman as a shocking deviation from character.

It's not a bad thing in itself, but it's poorly executed. Imagine watching Winter Soldier without seeing First Avenger. You'd be wondering why the hell Cap gives a shit about a guy who is evidently a cold-blooded killer. Sure, they tell you in Winter Soldier that they're pals, but you don't have the backstory. It seems like Cap is just kind of being a dick about not putting him down for good.

It's like this with Batfleck. We didn't get the backstory. We didn't see the 20 years of fighting crime, the death of Robin, any of the shit that drove Bruce Wayne to the brink of total mental breakdown. It's there, but we don't know why it's there. And that's a damned shame.

It's also a damned shame that Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman origin isn't better fleshed out - because her version of the character is spot-on, and was the highlight of the film for me.

Once again, we see where Warner Brothers has truly fucked up. They want the Justice League to be like the Avengers, but they don't want to take the time to build the pieces first. The Avengers took years to make - we had two Iron Man films, a Hulk film, a Thor film, and a Captain America film to prepare all of our heroes AND our villain before bringing them all together in the Avengers. It was brilliantly and meticulously organized.

In BvS, we get Man of Steel, and then BAM! Here's the Justice League!

No. Bad. You're doing it wrong, WB. You need to make your Batfleck film. You need to make your WW film. Maybe seed the Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman in them, if you consider them minor characters (sort of how Hawkeye and Black Widow appeared as secondary characters before Avengers). You don't just toss them at us at once, and expect us to fill in the blanks. You did a disservice to two *really* good superheroes.

As for Superman, well, I feel like this whole film was set up as penance for the colossal fuckup that was Man of Steel. They took the most egregious part of the first movie - the collateral damage - and beat up Superman for the whole sequel over it. Superman is miserable. And that's kind of a shitty thing to do to Superman.

Now, Batman's beef with Superman makes sense - Wayne witnesses first-hand the destruction he's able to render, and is personally affected by it. But Superman's beef with Batman is completely out of nowhere. Why does he give a shit? He's dealing with the fallout of an interstellar war that wrecked a city, and he's worried about one non-superpowered vigilante beating the shit out of petty criminals in Gotham? Poorly done, WB. You should have given Superman a personal reason to care. Batman shouldn't have been on Superman's radar until he struck first.

And Lex Luthor? Good fucking grief. What a goddamned abortion that character was. Bring me the head of whoever thought that turning Lex Luthor into a spastic autistic millenial was a good idea. What the actual fuck? You turned one of the most interesting, nuanced villains in history into an obnoxious tweaker with no real motivation. We literally have no idea why he gives a shit about Superman or Batman, or why he's gathering data on metahumans, or why, basically, he's just an asshole (other than a very brief bit about how he has daddy issues - which is retarded because Lex Luthor is supposed to be a world-class genius who ought to be more like Tony Stark - "Dad's leave - don't need to be a pussy about it")

Ugh. Lex Luthor just sucked buttermilk, and that, more than anything, is the ruination of this film.

And don't get me started on Doomsday... First of all, the character Doomsday wasn't that interesting in the first place. When the Death of Superman happened 20 years ago in the comic books, I was underwhelmed at how they executed it. A villain out of nowhere with no backstory just happened to be perfectly made to kill Superman shows up and, well, kills Superman. It was a bad idea then, and they actually found a way to make it worse.

I mean, what the fuck was the point of mixing Luthor's blood with Zod's dead body? What did that achieve? What did that add to the process? None of it is explained very well at all; all we know is that Luthor is smarter than the government agents that have had the spaceship for nearly 2 years, figures out how to get deeper inside it, and do some dumb shit that nobody'd ever heard of. Why wouldn't Zod have created Doomsday in the first place if that were possible all along?

In short, the Death of Superman in this film feels entirely gratuitous and pointless. We know he's not really dead. Why'd we bother with this? Clark is miserable the whole film and then dies. I almost felt relieved for him at that point.

One other note - the soundtrack was a gross disappointment. You fucking mailed this one in, Hans Zimmer, and I am stunned. Your work is usually so good I end up throwing tracks into my workout playlist - and there's NOTHING in this film's score that is even close to making that cut. Get your shit together man; you're better than this.

So, go see it if you like superhero films, but keep your expectations low, because this movie fell way, way short of it's potential. It's not Fantastic Four Trainwreck bad, but it's a pretty poor effort.

Thankfully, the box office take has been substantial, so they'll likely greenlight Batflecks solo film(s) - and I'd love to see him have an unobstructed shot at the character.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:20 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Things I liked:
Batman and everything he was in/Alfred
The sets/costumes
Perry Black
Superman when not interacting with Batman or Lois Lane
Wonder Woman's theme
Batman car chase
Brutal Batman

Things I didn't like:
The fights which lasted too long
Doomsday
Wonder Woman's actress looked terrible (not built enough) and just strange looking, she was extremely flat and wooden
The story of the second half of the movie
The dream sequences
Lois Lane
The lack of logic behind the action
Martha, Martha!
Gotham is six miles from Metropolis

Thing I was iffy about:
Lex Luther
The PG-13 rating
The use of grey filters
Why Superman hates Batman
The 'intellectual' writing
The introduction of the other characters via videos

It was bad but not 29%. Goyer probably shouldn't write movies anymore. Luther might be okay if he shapes up in a sequel.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:22 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Yeah, I didn't mention Alfred. I didn't particularly care one way or the other; honestly, Irons has a tough act to follow. Michael Caine was just about perfect.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:28 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I wasn't planning on seeing this. Looks like I made the right decision, but thanks to everyone who watched it.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:35 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
It's also a damned shame that Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman origin isn't better fleshed out - because her version of the character is spot-on, and was the highlight of the film for me.
Wait till you get two hours of her ''acting''. The teaser of her film was shit. Same brooding colorless look as MoS, and seeing a barbie doll fighting German soldiers is laughable.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:37 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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The moment when Batman started using guns to kill bad guys Punisher-style was when I gave up on the film. I think Ben Affleck did a good job portraying Batman otherwise.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:40 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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The moment when Batman started using guns to kill bad guys Punisher-style was when I gave up on the film. I think Ben Affleck did a good job portraying Batman otherwise.
There's plenty of precedent for this. Remember: Batman started off as a gun-wielding vigilante. I can get it if it's just not to your taste, however.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:41 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
Yeah, I didn't mention Alfred. I didn't particularly care one way or the other; honestly, Irons has a tough act to follow. Michael Caine was just about perfect.
I would like to see a full movie with them.


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The moment when Batman started using guns to kill bad guys Punisher-style was when I gave up on the film. I think Ben Affleck did a good job portraying Batman otherwise.
It didn't bother me, but I don't care about the sanctity of these characters in their comic book form or from other media. I want them to be inspired by but not beholden to it.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:47 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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There's plenty of precedent for this. Remember: Batman started off as a gun-wielding vigilante. I can get it if it's just not to your taste, however.
It's just not my taste.

Takes away a very important aspect of Batman's character.
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:12 PM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
It's just not my taste.

Takes away a very important aspect of Batman's character.
To be fair, Batman comes across as a really burned out and broken man in this movie. I think he is supposed to be at one of his lowest points, when all the shit he has had to deal with and lost has reached the point where his ability to care about principles is in the toilet.

I think if they address it in the Batman solo movies it will be fine.
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Old 03-28-2016, 01:06 AM
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It is even spelled out loud by Alfred. He asks "New rules" when he bring the newspaper with the Bat-branded at the first page.It clearly imply that it's something new which he dislikes. Then Bruce answer "Nothing changed, Alfred. We are criminals. We always have been".

Those sentences may be easily overlooked, but I take them as proving that Batman is at his moral lowpoint during the film, going ever more brutal and ruthless.
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Old 03-28-2016, 05:11 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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I think it was supposed to be explained in the movie but got cut along with other stuff. We need to wait for the R-rated dvd as it has 40 more minutes I think. Robin's death is what pushed him over the edge. That's cool and all but as of this movie we go back to same ol' question. Why doesn't this Batman just kill the Joker?! Or break his spine? Or lobotomize him? They try to make their movies feel realistic but this Batman is straight out of the comics, and comic logic doesn't work in realistic settings. Such a mess.

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Old 03-28-2016, 07:03 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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I think it was supposed to be explained in the movie but got cut along with other stuff. We need to wait for the R-rated dvd as it has 40 more minutes I think. Robin's death is what pushed him over the edge. That's cool and all but as of this movie we go back to same ol' question. Why doesn't this Batman just kill the Joker?! Or break his spine? Or lobotomize him? They try to make their movies feel realistic but this Batman is straight out of the comics, and comic logic doesn't work in realistic settings. Such a mess.
40 more minutes of this movie might be close to torture.
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:05 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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It is even spelled out loud by Alfred. He asks "New rules" when he bring the newspaper with the Bat-branded at the first page.It clearly imply that it's something new which he dislikes. Then Bruce answer "Nothing changed, Alfred. We are criminals. We always have been".

Those sentences may be easily overlooked, but I take them as proving that Batman is at his moral lowpoint during the film, going ever more brutal and ruthless.
It's not clear enough. Not to the casual viewer.

As I said, as a long-time comic reader, I understood it. But there's no clear motivation given for Bruce's descent into moral questionability here; we're meant to figure it out on our own.

Maybe the extended version clears this up. I certainly hope so. But the theatrical cut leaves much to be desired.

Fortunately, all of this didn't keep it from making a shitload of money over the weekend, so we'll probably get more of these films, and I can hope they do a better job going forward. The market is big enough for Marvel AND WB to make good comic book movies, so I don't want to see either one fail.
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:23 PM
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Batman was simply a moron to KILL Superman when the explosion obviously was caused by someone else and Luthor being the NO.1 suspect.
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:37 PM
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Batman was simply a moron to KILL Superman when the explosion obviously was caused by someone else and Luthor being the NO.1 suspect.
The so-called manipulation of both heroes done by Luthor was highly suspect. As I've said before - Lex was the weakest link in the film. Just terribly cast and written.

I don't think Eisenberg is a bad actor - I just think he's all wrong for the part.
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:38 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I still think Bryan Cranston should have been Luthor.
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:50 PM
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The so-called manipulation of both heroes done by Luthor was highly suspect. As I've said before - Lex was the weakest link in the film. Just terribly cast and written.

I don't think Eisenberg is a bad actor - I just think he's all wrong for the part.
Yes, there were just too many points to link Lex to it.

Lex wasn't present during the hearing.
The wheelchair was given by him, it must have got Lexcorp's technology to avoid the detection.
Wallace was bailed out by Lex.
The explosion most likely was trigger by outside signal, it could be tracked.

Bruce even knew Lex had something against metahuman, but he just chose to be a SUPER moron.

Most of the Oscar winners' performance wasn't impressive in this movie, it wasn't their fault I guess.
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:38 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar
I can't say I was all that impressed, but I wasn't as disappointed as I could have been.

It's just a mediocre film. It suffers from the same malaise as Spider-Man 3 in that it tries to introduce too many new characters at once, and doesn't cultivate any of them sufficiently.

For starters - I liked Affleck's Batman. The problem is, the casual movie goer has no idea why he's not the Batman they're used to. Case in point - my wife left the film saying "Why was Batman such an asshole?"
...
It's like this with Batfleck. We didn't get the backstory. We didn't see the 20 years of fighting crime, the death of Robin, any of the shit that drove Bruce Wayne to the brink of total mental breakdown. It's there, but we don't know why it's there. And that's a damned shame.
Great review, very spot on. Bolvar did not disappoint.

Kinda sad how this film has a lot of good, yet with a lot of bad not letting it be truly "good". Still, good for a trip to the cinema.
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Old 03-31-2016, 05:31 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I still think Bryan Cranston should have been Luthor.


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Great review, very spot on. Bolvar did not disappoint.

Kinda sad how this film has a lot of good, yet with a lot of bad not letting it be truly "good". Still, good for a trip to the cinema.
I wouldn't say it even has a lot of good, more like it has some good but a lot of bad that outweighs it.
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