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View Poll Results: Which shall it be!
Option 1! 22 59.46%
Option 2! 15 40.54%
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  #26  
Old 05-07-2013, 04:54 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Archimonde should assign homework.
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  #27  
Old 05-07-2013, 05:12 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Let's do this top-down. Decide on one thing first, and not continue with anything else until that one point has been settled.

For instance: The site of the setting.

1) One world.

2) Several worlds.

3) A planet.

4) Several planets.
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

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  #28  
Old 05-07-2013, 05:34 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Re: Multiple Disconnected Spheres

Though an interesting idea in itself, it does defeat the purpose of the exercise.

The purpose of this Project is not for everyone to craft their own unique and individual world before combining it with everyone else's into a single continuity. It's a neat idea, certainly, and if this goes well I'll probably set such an exercise up when we're 'finished' (if nobody else does it first), but this is intended to be a strongly collaborative experiment. It's meant to establish what we, as a collective, most appreciate in fantasy/sci-fi literature and yield some kind of unified, aggregated representation of what we, the diseased oversoul of Scrolls of Lore, think would be really nifty.

TL: DR Executive decision = one world/planet

That said, the impression I'm getting from this last page or two is that the people want a blend of technology and magic. Great! We're getting somewhere! Now what should the ratio be? What sorts of magic and what sorts of technology? Is magic a chaotic or an orderly thing? Is the technology intrinsically magical? Are magically and technologically advanced cultures frequently at odds, are they friendly or are they integrated to some degree? Are there intrinsic differences in the intellectual capacities of different species/races that make one or another more inclined toward technology or spellcraft than others? Let's get some more ideas flowing.

And start thinking about what kinds of cultures, races, religions, geographical gimmicks and plot dynamics you'd like to see.

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Archimonde should assign homework.
I want a five page paper on a set of proposed thaumophysical properties by Thursday. Single-spaced, 10 point font and a complete bibliography.
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  #29  
Old 05-07-2013, 05:37 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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That said, the impression I'm getting from this last page or two is that the people want a blend of technology and magic. Great! We're getting somewhere! Now what should the ratio be? What sorts of magic and what sorts of technology? Is magic a chaotic or an orderly thing? Is the technology intrinsically magical? Are magically and technologically advanced cultures frequently at odds, are they friendly or are they integrated to some degree? Are there intrinsic differences in the intellectual capacities of different species/races that make one or another more inclined toward technology or spellcraft than others? Let's get some more ideas flowing.

And start thinking about what kinds of cultures, races, religions, geographical gimmicks and plot dynamics you'd like to see.
That's the kind of homework I meant.
Try not to overburden our little minds with too many questions, though. We might want to establish a few things, before going as far as thinking about races and cultures. Follow the magician's advice.
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  #30  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:04 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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R


That said, the impression I'm getting from this last page or two is that the people want a blend of technology and magic. Great! We're getting somewhere! Now what should the ratio be? What sorts of magic and what sorts of technology? Is magic a chaotic or an orderly thing? Is the technology intrinsically magical? Are magically and technologically advanced cultures frequently at odds, are they friendly or are they integrated to some degree? Are there intrinsic differences in the intellectual capacities of different species/races that make one or another more inclined toward technology or spellcraft than others? Let's get some more ideas flowing.

And start thinking about what kinds of cultures, races, religions, geographical gimmicks and plot dynamics you'd like to see.
For me, the rules of magic should be :

-species with high level in technology shouldn't be able to use a great deal of magic, not because they can't but because the magic requires a very special mindset which is largely incompatible with the mindset required to create advanced technology. Obviously, species which have mastered the mystic arts shouldn't be able to create advanced technology. So the techmagi would be stuff of legends, when two species worked together to achieve a greater goal.

-the magic ins't in a inherent way a chaotic or wild power, but its effects depend of the mindset of the pratictioner : for instance, the member of a civilized species would be able to use the magic as a precise and subtle tool because his mindset would allow him to, but he would be unable to use his mastery of magic to unleach chaotic spells of destructions. Obviously, the member of a brutal species would be the exact opposite.

-faith should play a big part in the use of magic because it is a component of the mindset : when one faith is strong, the use of magic is less numerous, but the remaining ones are more powerful (for instance if someone follow the religion of a Healing Goddess, then his power will be restricted to heal with his culture adding a level of disparity in the use of magic : a civilized would be able to heal terrible wounds which require precision and dexterity but couldn't do it to more than one, or at best two, wounded people, while a barbarian would be able to heal a lot of people but only if they have small wounds).

That's all I could think of for now, since I've an exam today, so I can't think about it as much as I would like.
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  #31  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:16 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Only specific races should use magic, while other ones master technology.
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  #32  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:17 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I have to disagree on the idea that magic and technology shouldn't be compatible. we should limit how easy it is to combine but it shouldn't be impossible for a species to manage to advance both technologicly and magicly.
The gnomes and goblins of wow for example excel quite well in both fields without them becoming overpowered though they probably should be more powerful than what they are atm.
Other factos should limit them, such as that such an ingenious species prefer studies before carnal pleasure which results in a low birth rate. It would make them numerically vulnearable to counter their advancements.
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  #33  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:27 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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I have to disagree on the idea that magic and technology shouldn't be compatible. we should limit how easy it is to combine but it shouldn't be impossible for a species to manage to advance both technologicly and magicly.
The gnomes and goblins of wow for example excel quite well in both fields without them becoming overpowered though they probably should be more powerful than what they are atm.
Other factos should limit them, such as that such an ingenious species prefer studies before carnal pleasure which results in a low birth rate. It would make them numerically vulnearable to counter their advancements.
As I've said, it is possible for a species which favor technology to use magic, but this species will never be as good in the use of magic as another which favoured magic over technology. To put it simply, when technology do something, you don't need to learn a power which would do the same, while if you have a power which allow you to do something, you don't need a technology which would do the same.

But I must said that I never liked species which melted magic and technology because I walways felt that the very rules at the core of those disciplines are incompatible (which is why, for me at least, techmagi should be something very rare but also very powerful just like the manabomb in WoW). However, individuals should be able to master the Other Art (which would be named differently among species : the Great Art of Technology and the Minor Knowledge of Arcane among tech-favoured species, the Sublim Work of Magic and the Secondary Work of Crafting for magic-addicts, for exemple) but they probably would be shunned by their peers, or at least seen as eccentric and more than a little insane/crazy.
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  #34  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:36 AM
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Magic should simply be chemical processes that include a special chemical element. The races that perform magic have lived in zones with vast deposits of this element, which has lead them to develop a special organ with which they can manipulate it, cast spells. In a manner, magic is simply science and can therefore go hand in hand with technology, if a species so desires. You could say that magic is like FMA alchemy, but exchanging written formulas with a special chemical element.

Of course, some less advanced species believe that magic is actually that, magic. This allows friction between magical and non-magical races to exist, thanks to delicious superstition.
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  #35  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:40 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Have decided if we want magic based on training or based on birth?
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  #36  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:42 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Magic should simply be chemical processes that include a special chemical element. The races that perform magic have lived in zones with vast deposits of this element, which has lead them to develop a special organ with which they can manipulate it, cast spells. In a manner, magic is simply science and can therefore go hand in hand with technology, if a species so desires. You could say that magic is like FMA alchemy, but exchanging written formulas with a special chemical element.

Of course, some less advanced species believe that magic is actually that, magic. This allows friction between magical and non-magical races to exist, thanks to delicious superstition.
Add a spiritual/metaphysical property to it which remains mysterious and can be explained as unsufficient understanding of the phenomena and I'll support you 100% . Keeping the mystery of magic is a must for it to remain as magic.
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  #37  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:44 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Have decided if we want magic based on training or based on birth?
I would prefer training myself, but it can be both, it depends of the species. For instance, some magical species could have a politic of "Anyone who want to learn magic can" while other could have "Only people born in the nobility/arcanocracy have the right to learn magic". In the second case, commoners are left with superstitions, very rough knowledge of the magic and a lot of problems when a noble birth a bastard or when child with a powerful raw potential are discovered.

Edit : but don't believe that in my first exemple, the species is inevitably benevolent : they could allow training for every person who want to become a mage only because they have goals which require a lot of magic users.
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  #38  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:48 AM
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Perhaps divide it between having a dominant affinity, passive affinity and being completely unable to use it but also have it be possible for someone with absolutely 0 affinity for magic be able to use it through exposure to raw magic but at a heavy cost.
The ones with dominant affinity are those who can do it by nature while those with passive affinity have to either train or coerse the dormant ability to do magic.
A sorcerer of DnD would be someone with dominant affinity.
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  #39  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:00 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Add a spiritual/metaphysical property to it which remains mysterious and can be explained as insufficient understanding of the phenomena and I'll support you 100% . Keeping the mystery of magic is a must for it to remain as magic.
Well, the races that are less advanced are those who believe that it is actual magic and do not know it's real source, which explains why some of them believe it to be a boon granted by the gods or by the devil, depending on who you ask. (Of course, gods and demons are just placeholders in this context.) The organ that allows you to manipulate magic is also one you have to train, so some race which do not train all of their members only have a few powerful magic users, despite everyone technically being able to cast.

The more advanced races do know how magic functions, or have a rudimentary understanding on what enables them to cast. This allows some races, which have not been gifted with the special organ, to "cast" via technological means. Since you want magic to remain a mystery, most species are not advanced enough to attain this knowledge and those that are do not share, not willingly.

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Perhaps divide it between having a dominant affinity, passive affinity and being completely unable to use it but also have it be possible for someone with absolutely 0 affinity for magic be able to use it through exposure to raw magic but at a heavy cost.
The ones with dominant affinity are those who can do it by nature while those with passive affinity have to either train or coerse the dormant ability to do magic.
A sorcerer of DnD would be someone with dominant affinity.
This can once again be solved by my super organ, which I really should name. Some races have a more developed one and others one that isn't as developed, and some people train theirs more than others. That way you have all the affinities you want and the requirement to actually do something before you become overpowered.

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  #40  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:01 AM
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I would prefer training myself, but it can be both, it depends of the species. For instance, some magical species could have a politic of "Anyone who want to learn magic can" while other could have "Only people born in the nobility/arcanocracy have the right to learn magic". In the second case, commoners are left with superstitions, very rough knowledge of the magic and a lot of problems when a noble birth a bastard or when child with a powerful raw potential are discovered.

Edit : but don't believe that in my first example, the species is inevitably benevolent : they could allow training for every person who want to become a mage only because they have goals which require a lot of magic users.
I too prefer magic is everyone but only people with appropriate training can use it.

When I was referring to birth I was actually referring to pre-conditions that exclude everyone else like being born with being able to use magic that excludes almost everyone, or touching a unicorn or being exposed to magic, or something like that.

I think we should start with he basic rules and not go with what the race can't or can do? Which is why we should held the first vote on what type of magic we want: By training or have a condition outside of the individual's control, like birth or being exposed.
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  #41  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:04 AM
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The more advanced races do know how magic functions, or have a rudimentary understanding on what enables them to cast. This allows some races, which have not been gifted with the special organ, to "cast" via technological means. Since you want magic to remain a mystery, most species are not advanced enough to attain this knowledge and those that are do not share, not willingly.
But don't you think that then, these races would try to conquer the lands were the chemical source of magic lies ? After all, they could then have the technology and "magic" into their hands, so they would be very powerful. Which is why I would prefer magic and technology to be totally separate.

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I think we should start with he basic rules and not go with what the race can't or can do? Which is why we should held the first vote on what type of magic we want: By training or have a condition outside of the individual's control, like birth or being exposed.
I agree : Anansi, do your job and change the poll !
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  #42  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:10 AM
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But don't you think that then, these races would try to conquer the lands were the chemical source of magic lies ? After all, they could then have the technology and "magic" into their hands, so they would be very powerful. Which is why I would prefer magic and technology to be totally separate.
Everyone has their own pool of magic chemical (their mana pool), which replenishes. Those without the organ can just not access it. In fact most things have traces of the magical chemical, but only when found in great amounts can a creature develop an attunement organ. You could say that conquering lands is not really important, if you can already cast.
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  #43  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:16 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Well, the races that are less advanced are those who believe that it is actual magic and do not know it's real source, which explains why some of them believe it to be a boon granted by the gods or by the devil, depending on who you ask. (Of course, gods and demons are just placeholders in this context.) The organ that allows you to manipulate magic is also one you have to train, so some race which do not train all of their members only have a few powerful magic users, despite everyone technically being able to cast.

The more advanced races do know how magic functions, or have a rudimentary understanding on what enables them to cast. This allows some races, which have not been gifted with the special organ, to "cast" via technological means. Since you want magic to remain a mystery, most species are not advanced enough to attain this knowledge and those that are do not share, not willingly.

This can once again be solved by my super organ, which I really should name. Some races have a more developed one and others one that isn't as developed, and some people train theirs more than others. That way you have all the affinities you want and the requirement to actually do something before you become overpowered.
I don't think a magic organ would really work, first we would have to explain why multiple races would have such organ, second we would have to explain how would such organ work, third it would lose the much mystery of magic much like the force in star wars.

I'm not saying we should separate biology completely from magic, there could be races with magic boosting organs(like in star wars), i'm saying such organ as a pre-condition for magic would be somewhat of a creative crutch.

I'm also not saying that certain characters shouldn't have a affinity towards magic, but with the choosing training as the condition of magic we can make some "genius"(natural skills) or "athletes"(trained skills) towards magic instead of just one side.
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  #44  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:53 AM
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I think that magic can remain a mistery in a setting where technology is not highly developped... otherwise, it will tend to become an explainable phenomenon: be it psionics, a new element, an energy, etc.
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  #45  
Old 05-07-2013, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Only specific races should use magic, while other ones master technology.
As long as it's not an innate limitation and you can do what most people of your race don't do - if you so desire.

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Have decided if we want magic based on training or based on birth?
Either go D&D way (training by default, but you can be born with a magical bloodline) or my personal favorite. Just make everyone at least a tiny bit magical deep inside. Some people are more magical (sorcerers), but most require schooling (wizards).
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:16 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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As long as it's not an innate limitation and you can do what most people of your race don't do - if you so desire.
This mostly comes from my hate of the concept that the humans are "jack of all trades", while other races are all specialized.

I'd rather make humes special in a different way then provide them both magic, warrior prowess and technology.
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  #47  
Old 05-07-2013, 08:22 AM
Xarthat Xarthat is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
This mostly comes from my hate of the concept that the humans are "jack of all trades", while other races are all specialized.

I'd rather make humes special in a different way then provide them both magic, warrior prowess and technology.
Why don't we provide all the races with possibility of doing any of those things, except some races would be better at some than others? Like, dwarves = good at mundane fighting and tech; elves = magic and fighting; humans = fighting and religion, etc.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:20 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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I agree : Anansi, do your job and change the poll !
We would have to deal with a bunch of polls just to finish the cosmogenesis.

Do we want magic by training or conditioned?
Do we want gods to be real or fake? How much power?
How much do we want to alter the laws of life, space and time?
Resurrection?
How many continents? Oceans? Moons?
General level of technology?
Realms/Dimensions?

And a lot more. In my opinion we should go with the most broad possible and the one that allows most creativity in these cases in my opinion would be:

Trained magic, allows genius.
Real, varied but not absolute.
Space/Allow portals and teleportation, make it hard, Time/Allow time travel but make it all predestined, Life/Allow resurrection, mutants and undead.
More than 1, but less than 10 in all of them.
Varied, but make it so they follow the same rules as gods.
Allow them but make them, at maximum, the size of the european continent.

This is only my opinion again.

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I think that magic can remain a mistery in a setting where technology is not highly developped... otherwise, it will tend to become an explainable phenomenon: be it psionics, a new element, an energy, etc.
Not really, there can be highly technological enviroments but we can keep the "origin of magic" a mystery.

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This mostly comes from my hate of the concept that the humans are "jack of all trades", while other races are all specialized.

I'd rather make humes special in a different way then provide them both magic, warrior prowess and technology.
I guess that's okay as long you don't claim ownership of all humans.

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Why don't we provide all the races with possibility of doing any of those things, except some races would be better at some than others? Like, dwarves = good at mundane fighting and tech; elves = magic and fighting; humans = fighting and religion, etc.
That's also good.

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As long as it's not an innate limitation and you can do what most people of your race don't do - if you so desire.
And that's even better, I think with races cultural context should be more important in what they can do, than something that's innate.

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Either go D&D way (training by default, but you can be born with a magical bloodline) or my personal favorite. Just make everyone at least a tiny bit magical deep inside. Some people are more magical (sorcerers), but most require schooling (wizards).
I guess that would be ideal, as long as some "wizards" could reach "sorcerers" with hard training/knowledge. Although I prefer the term genius.
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  #49  
Old 05-07-2013, 09:26 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I have a suggestion for how to make the transition easier:

Magic is not something inherent in the spellcaster, magic comes from mana which in itself is a physical object.

Mana is a very rare mineral in the world, which was once thought to be plentiful. By harnessing mana, spellcasters can weave magic: The art of influencing or outright change certain aspects of reality. By using magic, mana is depleted, and all that remains is a highly toxic residual crystal which emanates a dangerous form of radiation which is lethal to most races.

It is thought that there were once great empires all across the world, who rose because of their affinity and use of magic. But at some point, the worlds' inhabitants realized that magic, for all it's wonders, was finite - it would eventually run out and all attempts to create artificial equivalents have failed.

It's thought that this led to grand wars between the various civilazations of the world, which led to their mutual ruin. A lot of magic was spent in the war, which means that vast areas of the world have been deeply irridated for millenia, and only recently have civilazations been able to investigate these areas. That's not to say that the areas have been dormant for all those years - while some are tomb cities and ruins, others have adapted and thrived in new eco systems.

Many are drawn to explore these areas, attracted to the prospect of mana crystals and the wealth, power and benefits this might bring.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #50  
Old 05-07-2013, 09:37 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I have a suggestion for how to make the transition easier:

Magic is not something inherent in the spellcaster, magic comes from mana which in itself is a physical object.

Mana is a very rare mineral in the world, which was once thought to be plentiful. By harnessing mana, spellcasters can weave magic: The art of influencing or outright change certain aspects of reality. By using magic, mana is depleted, and all that remains is a highly toxic residual crystal which emanates a dangerous form of radiation which is lethal to most races.

It is thought that there were once great empires all across the world, who rose because of their affinity and use of magic. But at some point, the worlds' inhabitants realized that magic, for all it's wonders, was finite - it would eventually run out and all attempts to create artificial equivalents have failed.

It's thought that this led to grand wars between the various civilazations of the world, which led to their mutual ruin. A lot of magic was spent in the war, which means that vast areas of the world have been deeply irridated for millenia, and only recently have civilazations been able to investigate these areas. That's not to say that the areas have been dormant for all those years - while some are tomb cities and ruins, others have adapted and thrived in new eco systems.

Many are drawn to explore these areas, attracted to the prospect of mana crystals and the wealth, power and benefits this might bring.
Not that I don't like such settings, but that would be very restrictive and would be conditional magic, and would be in a way a creative crutch, which is something I hope we could avoid.

However mana crystals and magic pollution can still totally be a thing.
Mana crystals could act as a recipient for storing mana, it could be a finite resource found in the universe that provides more mana than people normally have, they could be crafted from gems, they could be grown from bodies of living beings, they could only be filled with mana of freshly dead sapient beings. Or they could be all of the above, depending on the quality of each crystal.
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