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Old 05-27-2015, 11:16 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Alliance Flag Project: Historian's take on Warcraft - Preview Thread

Introduction

Greetings, good people of Scrolls of Lore and visitors of all kind. Welcome to the preview thread of the project called, a bit eccentrically one must admit, "A Historian's take on Warcraft". I have updated this original post to better reflect the ever growing thread and provide an easier orientation to all those interested. To those who are not yet familiar with this project, please read the Old introductory post part first; a few bits there are outdated, but it will stil provide you will all the basic information you need. To the rest, just follow the Table of Contents, now accommodated to help you find whatever your heart desires.

I will gradually update this post with all the new information, new questions and answers, and last, the current working and release schedule.
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Table of Contents

1. Current working and release schedule, currently released work
2. Preview excerpts
3. Current concept maps and banners
4. Questions and answers
5. Old information and feedback post
6. Old introductory post
7. Outdated concept maps

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________
1. A. Current working and release schedule

Later stages of editing at the moment, including certain rewrites and so on.

1. B. Currently released work.

Atlas of Azeroth and Draenor (the first part so far).

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2. Preview excerpts (bound to be edited)

Calendars of the East

Uther the Lightbringer

The first years of the War - a Second War excerpt

Battle of Blackrock Spire

Battle of Tyr's Bay

Gilneas

Azeroth

Table of Contents
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3. Current concept maps and banners

New Eastern Kingdoms map - work in progress (clickable).



New Eastern Kingdoms concept map v2 (clickable).



Map depicting the major mountain ranges, hills and areas of importance (clickable).



Draenor concept map v2 (clickable).
Note: It is at the time of the opening of the Dark Portal.



Banner of all Quel'Thalas_____________________Banner of Silvermoon______________________Banner of the Sunstrider dynasty

Banner of Dalaran______________________Banner of Gilneas______________________Banner of Stromgarde______________________Banner of Kul Tiras______________________Banner of the Silver Hand


Banner of the Northeron dwarves_________________Banner of the Blackrock Clan_________________Banner of the Warsong Clan

Banner of Lordaeron


Banner of Alterac


Imperial banner of Arathor


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

4. Questions and answers


Dun Modr and Khaz Modan campaign

Island of Doctor Lapidis and Gillijim's Isle.

A bit about the climate

Multiraciality of the Seven Kingdoms, the orcs - their nature, corruption, the Blood Curse

Of the orcish Blood Pact and the ritual behind it

A bit about the economy and resources

Thrall and warlocks, the Alteraci Blackrocks and Burning Blade, the nature of the orcish corruption

Principal noble houses of Gilneas

Orcish clan structure, the origins of the Dragonmaw Clan

Division of the work, the Dragon Aspects

Anduin Lothar and the effects of his ancestry

The Seven Kingdoms and different cultural influences

A bit about the sources, a bit about the Draenei and Velen, the nature of the orcish conquest of Draenor

About the L (Lordaeron) symbol

About the calendars

About the Druids of Caer Darrow

A name for the Druids of Caer Darrow

The status of Tol Barad after the Second War, the status of the Tyr's Bay Fortress, Seredane

Of Karazhan and the House of Aran

The source preference

Of the Battle at Darrowmere and Gul'dan, the Alteraci Dark Portal, the Second War timeline concept

Uther's psychological profile, the Bleeding Hollow capital, Deathknell and its name

Outland and its transformation, the elves of the Commonlands, the occupation of Azeroth

More on the orcish corruption, the Azerothien refugees

Effects of the Blood Curse, the lethargy, Doomhammer's and Blackhand's visions of the post war world

Orcish expansion on Draenor, Haala

Death Knights in the Second Wars, few other small bits

The orcish clan evolution

A bit about the Greymane Peaks

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

5. Old information and feedback post

So I am back from my vacation and since I have some spare time, I started to work on this project again. I am not sure when will I finish it, as the real life duties always interfere, but as most of the work is complete, I hope it will be soon.

Anyway, why I am making this post. I need some feedback. Feedback to help me decide about things I am not 100 % sure about. This is aimed especially at Warcraft II fans (not only at BaronGrackle, although his feedback would be very appreciated), but I will be thankful for any sort of feedback. So let us begin.

Disclamer: I said it already, but just to be sure there is no confusion. This is not a historical project. Yes, I am using historical method to work with sources, but that is not everything, as I also want to fill gaps if possible. So, based on the conclusions of the work with the sources, I am making new stuff. Sometimes, it is a plain extrapolation from evidence, but sometimes, it is just an extrapolation from a vibe or theme and sometimes, it is just an educated guess. So please, keep this in mind.

1. Dragon Riders and the role of the Dragonmaw Clan.

There are two issues with this whole thing. First of all, were the Horde dragons "independent", or were they just mounts for Dragon Riders? Warcraft II supports the former, while the rest the latter. Second, were those dragons "manned" only by Dragonmaws? Or in other words, were dragons a "property" of the Dragonmaw Clan that was lend to the other clans, or did other clans have their own dragons as well?

At the moment, my version of this whole thing is the following one, but I am not 100 % sure about it.

First of all, yes, there were Dragon Riders. There were some instances where dragons weren't mounted, mostly in case of older beasts that were mature enough (and brainwashed, or more correctly said trained) to not need any rider, or in case of the mature dragons that worked with the Horde voluntarily (like Deathwing).

Second. I am making it so that dragons and their riders were part of all (clans). Dragonmaws had a privilege of keeping the Dragonqueen, breeding new dragons and training both young dragons and new Dragon Riders from all the clans. Also, thanks to all of this, Dragonmaw Dragon Riders and their dragons were simply the most elite of them all, but they weren't the only ones.

2. Capture of Gul'dan.

As some of you might know, both Warcraft II beta and Official Strategy Guide has Gul'dan captured after the battle of Darrowmere. I decided to use this as there is nothing contradicting it and I find it interesting, although I am not sure if it is not a stretch.

So, my take is the following. After the battle, Gul'dan is captured, along with many orcs and Alteraci sailors. But unlike Alteraci, he is not sent to the Capital City, he is sent to Dalaran. There, he is kept prisoner and personally interrogated by Khadgar. He is only freed after the sack of Dalaran, after which he sets out for the Tomb of Sargeras. Anyway, what exactly does this accomplish?

A. The whole experience, once again, shows Gul'dan that he is not invincible, yet, and basically serves as a catalyst for his decision to abandon the Horde at that exact moment. He is basically "fuck this shit, it is now or never" and leaves with most of the forces loyal to him, which completely fucks the strategic situation of the Horde (this will be explained in the account of the war itself).

B. It explains why Khadgar and Gul'dan have a history.

C. It allows Khadgar to learn new information about the nature of the Dark Portal and Draenor. This allows him to form the spell to destroy the Portal later on and is one of the main reasons why he is found to be the most qualified to lead the Alliance Expedition.

D. It allows Cho'gall and his Twilight's Hammer to be the vanguard of the Horde during the sack of Dalaran. This is more a thing of "cool", but I find the idea of Twilights wreaking havoc amongst the streets of Dalaran and clashing with the Kirin Tor interesting.

3. Prisoners in Alterac.

If you played Warcraft II, you will know that there were some purple rescuable units described as prisoners in the mission where the Alliance assaults Alterac. But who exactly were they? There are several possibilities. I am going with the following explanation, but once again, I am not sure if this is not a stretch.

As my project describes the fall of Alterac happening after the sack of Dalaran, I decided to make large part of those prisoners Dalaranians that were captured during and after the aforementioned sack. The rest are either the Alteraci Alliance loyalists, or just Alteraci that do not agree with the rule of Perenolde and his agreement with the Horde. To elaborate, as the scale of the world in this project is "huge", there are thousands of those prisoners, held in numerous camps.

4. Multiculturality/raciality of the Seven Kingdoms.

This thing is at the moment just a concept that I am toying with and as such, unlike the previous points, is not a part of the project whatsoever. It stems from the vibe I got (and still get) when playing Warcraft II and its expansion and partially even from Warcraft III/World of Warcraft.

So, what is this all about? I imagine that certain kingdoms of humanity (or even all of them) became multiracial during and after the Second War. Now, I am not talking about isolated groups of non-humans just living there. I am talking about large groups of them integrating, obtaining citizenship and even serving in the military of certain kingdom. So, for example, I would imagine large number of dwarves living in Azeroth and becoming its citizens. Yes, they would still keep some sort of "emotional allegiance" to their "racial homeland", but they would be citizens of Azeroth, would serve in its military etc. What do you think? Is that too nonsensical given what we know?

5. Background of the several human kingdoms.

I am pretty confident about this one, but still, there might be some things I missed (as already happened with Kul Tiras), so, feel free to remind me or post what you find nonsensical.

A. Lordaeron.
I am not going too deep with this, but basic idea is the following. When Lordaeron was founded, what made it different, made it this mecca for religious travelers and so on, was that they supported the Church, granted them vast swathes of land and even allowed them to hold secular fiefdoms. Many towns and cities were founded by bishops and were ruled by bishop-lords as quasi-independent (most notably Tyr's Hand) entities. This allowed the Church to thrive there and attracted large numbers of religious people, resulting in Lordaeron being so religious and effectively making it the center of the Church.

Although, that does not mean that all Archbishops were from Lordaeron or even resided there. Yes, given its realities, most Archbishops were of the Lordaeronian origin and resided in one of its main cities (be it the Capital City, Stratholme or Tyr's Hand), but there were also Archbishops of different origin, most notably of the Azerothien origin (and many of those resided in Stormwind). Which brings me to a certain detail. Archbishops did not have a traditional residence, as popes of our world did.

B. Azeroth.
So, what made Azeroth different? First of all, its relative isolation had a certain effect. Unlike the northern kingdoms that kind of focused on a certain thing, Azeroth had to be fully sufficient in everything, developing its own structures.

So, while the national mages of Lordaeron, Alterac or Gilneas were basically offshots and students of Dalaran and were not really that much developed, the conjurers of Azeroth were its own, developed thing. Same applies regarding the Light. So, while Azerothiens were part of the Church, they had their own structures, like own scholarly and monastic order, the Holy Order of Northshire.

Also, their whole take on the Light was a little bit different when compared to the North, as it was, once again thanks to the geographical realities, far more individualistic. This, as a consequence, was the reason why Lordaeron never developed paladins before - their take on the Light did not really made it possible - only a influx of the Azerothien approach (most notably of the "research" of the Northshire Clerics) made it possible.

Second, the government. Difference between Azeroth and other kingdoms is that in the end, it has far more democratic (and noble monarchy) elements. We have the House of Nobles, which acts as sorf of a parliament. Also, villages and towns (there are no cities with the exception of Stormwind City, as you can see on my map) elect their own councils and mayors, who are directly responsible to the crown. Nobility does not rule, although they own vast swathes of land and have large amount of power thanks to the House of Nobles. Only difference is outside the kingdom of Stormwind (Azeroth is divided amongst the kingdom of Stormwind, Balor and Borderlands) itself. The Borderlands were ruled by Morgan family and everything there was responsible to them, while they were responsible to the crown. Same applies for Balor. This state has its roots in history of Azeroth. When it was founded, it was founded as a city state ruled by direct descendants of King Thoradin. They eventually died out and conflict over the throne sprang up. There were proponents of Wrynns, noble family descendend through a female line and Lothars, a cadet branch. Nobles in the end supported Wrynns, who in turn gave them certain rights and formed the House of Nobles. The most loyal family, Morgans, was given the right to form its own "kingdom" outside the current boundaries of Stormwind, although they swore eternal allegiance to Wrynns as to the kings of whole Azeroth. This event marked the birth of Azeroth as a political entity and a start of the King's Calendar. Eventually, to limit the power of nobility, Wrynn kings granted more rights to commoners and citizens, which led to the current state.

C. Kul Tiras.
Alright, this one was a little bit tricky. Formerly, I had something akin to Genoa or Venice in mind, but thanks to BaronGrackle and Genesis, I went back, replayed and re-read everything we have on Kul Tiras and realized that this was not really the best way, since while Kul Tiras certainly has a merchant nation vibe, it also feels very much like a military dictatorship, so the merchant republic would not make that much sense. So, what is the deal now?

Kul Tiras has an economy based primarily on three things. Fishing, shipbuilding and most importantly, trade. There is a nobility, but it is kind of "merchant lord" nobility, ie traders owning large merchant fleets as well as doing other profitable business. So yes, merchants own their own ships and even fleets, but they are limited in armament and all that. There is not much of the regulation of the trade and private property, but other than that, Kul Tiras is basically an absolute monarchy. Lord Admirals have a complete control of the politics and military. Regarding the military, there is a standing a navy (used to protect interests of Kul Tiras and their merchant vessels) and army. Lord Admiral also has right to demand a transfer of all of the private merchant fleets under his command.

That is about it, for now. I will post more concepts I want a feedback for later, including some things about remaining human kingdoms, orcish clans etc.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________
6. Old introductory post

Greetings, good people of Scrolls of Lore. As some of you may have noticed in a few different threads, a new forumgoer registered as of late. My little self. Now, even though this isn't actual (or main) purpose of this thread, one should always introduce himself when starting his first thread, if he doesn't so with his first post. So, let us start with this (for those not interested, please skip this part).

Now, where to start. Well, let us say that I am a fan of Warcraft. Might be shocking given the development over past 10 years, but I really am, although those last few years more thanks to the power of sheer will and power of my headcanon than thanks to Blizzard's own doing. I am also a gamer (once again shocking, I know), particulary a fan of RTS games and RPGs. Apart from that, I am also a reader, both of factual literature and fiction (although most works I have read lately were of academic nature), and I love fencing, shooting, girls and beer, hiking, biking and history (well, I should as a graduate of history). And although I registered a mere month ago, I have been visiting this website for years as a spectator (actually, a year of my first visit was 2006). Which prompts a question; why register after such a long time? Well, now comes the interesting part.

Ever since the Tides of Darkness novel, the one (although not the only one and not even the first one) that I hate with passion, came out, I have been trying to find some way to make Warcraft feel as an actual world again without rendering half of the source material completely non-canon. This led me to a creation of a certain theory and this theory led me to a creation of a project. A project I am finally close to finish. And a project I might need a little help with. Which is the reason why, even though my project is not finished yet, am I posting about it already.

Now, what exactly do I need help with? Well, part of my project is a map. Or maps, to be precise. Maps of the Eastern Kingdoms, both terrain one and political one. And of military campaigns during the Second War. The thing is, although I managed to make these maps myself and from functional side they are quite "okayish", they just do not look good. Not at all. And sadly, I am not skilled enough to make them so, nor do I have enough spare time to become so at the moment. So, for anyone interested, willing and skilled, I would be eternally grateful for your help. And since you (both the ones who could actually be interested in helping out and those who could be interested just in project itself) should actually know what you should be interested about, here is small preview of the project.

The whole basis of this project is a theory about a discrepancy between Warcraft universe itself and media that present it. Basically, it works with a concept where the Warcraft world actually exist as a coherent, realistic and logical fantasy universe. The only problem is that we never actually see it clearly, without distortion, 1:1. Each and every time we have a look at this universe, it is through different media that act as some sort of windows. But all of them have its own agenda and its own constraints, distorting the image. Some more, some less. And what this project does is that it smashes those windows, taking all shards, comparing them with each other and creating a new window with them. A window that provides as least distorted image as possible. Or, in other words, what this work does is to take every single account of information, compare it with different accounts of the same information, looking at purpose, constrains, agenda, information bias etc. that the work they were included in had, and try to find most likely (aka logical) outcome. And sometimes, where there isn't enough available information, even extrapolate upon those little tidbids, filling the blank spots. And then, slowly, combine all of this into a single mosaic, providing the image of Warcraft universe in a non-distorted way, or in other words, how the world would most likely look like had the Blizzard been more responsible and serious with it. Now, I am completely aware that this theory is basically only a personal headcanon, but still, I think that at least looking at a little different Warcraft than we have seen in past years could be interesting to some of you. Or at least small part of it, since it would be a gargantuan task to do this for everything this universe includes.

Now, I won't delve into details of how I categorize and treat all the different material, that will be part of the work itself. But what exactly will the work contain if not everything? Well, the main focus at the moment is the era of the first two Great Wars, the Second War in particular. So, there will be the aforementioned maps of the Eastern Kingdoms. Based on probable resource base seen there. Next, based on all of this and extrapolation from trends seen in late medieval/renaissance Europe will be population figures, both of the total population and of the military. Which will lead us to the break out of the military forces in the Second War (both sides of course). And this to the military campaigns seen in this conflict. Apart from that, the work will also focus on the timeline and its issues, cultures of the orcs and their clans, cultures of the Seven Kingdoms of Humanity, symbolism, notable persons living during the period of the Great Wars etc.

Now, with all that said, comes the last part of this "preview". One of the maps included in the work (and one of those I could use help with). Again, I will not delve into details on how exactly the map has been made, since it will be a part of the work as well, but in short, the map is based on the Warcraft II and III maps as well as on the World of Warcraft maps (particularly the concept maps and pre-alpha ingame map that was closer to those concepts than the live version is) and the old Town Hall map (since this map is a clear representation of how the EK were truly envisioned before gameplay constraints and other things deformed them). Here it is, and for all the brave who managed to get here, thank you and sorry for all grammar mistakes, not so fancy looking map etc.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

7. Outdated concept maps

Concept Map (clickable) - edited with a new version:


Territorial map (de facto control, clickable):


Newer, more fancy map (clickable):


Climatic map (clickable):

Last edited by Marthen; 09-05-2017 at 06:46 AM..
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:37 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I'm all for filling in the blank spots of lore.

That's a good-looking map you have there. The relative simplicity of the design makes the distances clearer. Now, I haven't read any of the WoW books, so I can't really help you there, but it does make more sense to assume a much larger size than what we see in-game. As it is, one could stroll across an entire continent in a single morning.

It does get a little crowded with the blank mountain spaces, but there's really not anything you can do about that. There's also a dearth of settlements on river confluences, but again, that's just how it's presented in the game. The only way around that is to headcanon some new city.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:10 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Thanks for the reply.

Anyway, regarding the blank spaces. Well, I should have mentioned it, but basically, the map is merely representative, as in showing only the things mentioned/shown in established material. While the things like mountain ranges, bays, large rivers/lakes etc. are completely know to us (although not all are named) and thus shown, things like hills, smaller rivers/lakes etc. are not known at all and thus are not shown. And the same applies for settlements. While we probably know all the cities in the Eastern Kingdoms, as well as some towns and villages, there is certainly a huge number of settlements we simply do not know and which are thus not shown on the map.

And yes, regarding the mountain ranges looking a bit too...empty, I am well aware of that, but the problem is just with the way the map is drawn, hence why I am looking for help to make it look like an actual physical map.

Since if the map looked like this instead, it would not be such a problem.

Last edited by Marthen; 03-11-2016 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:46 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I love the idea behind your map, Azeroth need some serious development to be more than some tiny islands that is barely populated.
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Old 05-28-2015, 03:59 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Ah, I see your roots and longing for better times based on Dun Modr's location, Alterac's sea connection to Darrowmere, and the presence of Juroon and Hasic.

Not sure if it's on topic, but when I retroheadcanon I tend to imagine that the Horde's WC2 conquest of Stratholme would today translate to Darrowshire, due to current geographic locations.
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:18 PM
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Aye. That map brings tears to my eyes. And I concur about Stratholme.
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:42 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Aye. That map brings tears to my eyes. And I concur about Stratholme.
For once we're in agreement.
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:53 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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It's projects like this that make me envious of the talent & dedication of others to a craft.

Excellent map, and excellent subject-matter. If I could help, I would, but I'm already supremely outclassed. Good luck.
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:58 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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I came when I saw that map.
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Old 05-30-2015, 06:39 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Not sure if it's on topic, but when I retroheadcanon I tend to imagine that the Horde's WC2 conquest of Stratholme would today translate to Darrowshire, due to current geographic locations.
That is actually one of the things to which I have been looking for a solution. On one hand, we have the Warcraft II maps where Stratholme is located on the northern shore of Darrowmere lake, while in every other material it is located on the northern shore of Lordaeron (although still north of Darrowmere Lake). Now, one could just say that the city was razed and rebuilt in a different location...but is that really plausible for a city with population numbers ranging in tens of thousands? I am not really sure about that. But then again, with Stratholme sitting on the northern shore of Lordaeron without any water connection to Darrowmere Lake, some of things seen in Warcraft II do not really make sense. So, what to do about it?

A solution I came up with is the following one (by the way, I realized I uploaded a little bit older version of the map, so I am adding the latest version together with a territorial map to the first post as well as to the later part of this post for you to see this solution). On the northern shore of Lordaeron, directly to the north of Darrowmere Lake lies the so called Darrowmere Bay. This bay is directly connected to Darrowmere Lake via Thondoril River, which unlike its in-game representation is a huge sailable river (as large as Danube or Rhine for example). Now, the city of Stratholme is a harbor city laying directly next to the mouth of Thondoril on the shores of this Darrowmere Bay. So, while it is not located on the northern shores of Darrowmere Lake, it has a direct water connection with it and is still a harbor city as well as large supplier of oil (of which there are large deposits in Darrowmere Bay).

Now, here is the updated version (clickable):


And here is the promised territorial (de facto, not de jure) version, right before the start of the First War (clickable):


Now, to explain a few things.

First, regarding a little bit "awkward" borders between Alterac and Lordaeron. My personal theory (and the one I am going with in this project) is that formerly, the Barov family, owners of Caer Darrow, Tarren Mill, Southshore, Brill in Alterac* and the surrounding area and the Blackmoore family, owners of Durnholde Keep and its surroundings, were Alteraci noble families and their lands were thus a part of Alteraci kingdom. But at some point of history, Alterac lost a war against Lordaeron, after which those families became vassals of the Lordaeron kings and their lands in turn became a part of Lordaeron. Also, Dalaran, who was a target of Alteraci aggression in this war, gave Lordaeron a large swathes of land surrounding Hillsbrad as a token of gratitude for their help.

*Regarding Brill in Alterac and Brill in Tirisfal Glades. In this take on Warcraft, both exist, they just have a same name. This is even somewhat realistic, as medieval villages and towns were often named in the same patter, for example there was a large number of villages called Lhota in the medieval Bohemia.

Also, some may ask the following question; what the hell is this Domain of Azeroth? Where is the kingdom of Stormwind? Well...once again, this is basically a solution for the whole problem with Azeroth/Stormwind name. It is basically based on the idea that yes, there is a kingdom of Stormwind and yes, it was originally founded with this name. But over time, as the influence and power of the Stormwind kings grew, they started to fancy themselves as rulers of the whole Azerothien* continent. And eventually, approx. 590 years before the start of the First War (start of the King's Calendar), they claimed a dominion over all of Azeroth, taking a title of the Defender of Azeroth (as seen on Llane's plaque). And those lands they claimed dominion over became known as the Domain of Azeroth (or as the Azerothien kingdom, named after its inhabitants*), being composed of the kingdom of Stormwind itself as of the island of Balor and the so-called Borderland, as well as being represented by its own distinct banner**.

*While inhabitants of the planet of Azeroth are known as Azerothians with adjective form being Azerothian, the (human only) inhabitants of the continent of Azeroth are known as Azerothiens, with adjective form being Azerothien.

**Azerothien banner before the First War. Composed of the lion of Stormwind, the icon of the Holy Light (Azerothien version) and the so-called Cross of Azeroth (as seen in Warcraft I, for example on the footman's shield or on the archer's tabard):

Last edited by Marthen; 03-11-2016 at 02:06 PM..
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:57 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Cool

Dat map.
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:36 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Dat map.
I am glad you liked it.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:44 PM
The Last Menethil The Last Menethil is offline

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Love the map, but Brill is on there twice. Once just north of Strahnbrad and again north of Capital City.
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Old 06-05-2015, 11:14 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Love the map, but Brill is on there twice. Once just north of Strahnbrad and again north of Capital City.
Thanks, but I adressed this in my previous post.

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Regarding Brill in Alterac and Brill in Tirisfal Glades. In this take on Warcraft, both exist, they just have same name. This is even somewhat realistic, medieval villages and towns were often name in same patter, for example there was a large number of villages called Lhota in medieval Bohemia.
Actually, given the fact that Lordaeron has 18,5 million in this version of Warcraft, I guess there are even more villages and small towns known as Brill, we just do not know them (and given the population levels, we do not know more than 90 % of smaller settlements).
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Old 06-06-2015, 01:41 AM
Vaximillian Vaximillian is offline

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The map's awesome. You might need help prettifying it if you want to… however, it doesn't actually need it.
By the way, I noticed a typo: you have two Os in „South Gate Ooutpost“ between Dun Morogh and Loch Modan.
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:55 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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As a student of history, this makes me feel things.

Not sure if it's on the map or not but there's that one troll city in Eastern Plaguelands that is very close to Zul'Aman. I should probably mention that it's possible this was a second gate to the Zul'Aman.

Also maybe the kingdom of Stormwind was originally titled the King in Stormwind as to not upset those who named the continent and thus the kingdom Azeroth.

Last edited by Mertico; 06-06-2015 at 10:27 AM..
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:48 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The map's awesome. You might need help prettifying it if you want to… however, it doesn't actually need it.
By the way, I noticed a typo: you have two Os in „South Gate Ooutpost“ between Dun Morogh and Loch Modan.
Thanks for noting, I will fix it.

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As a student of history, this makes me feel things.

Not sure if it's on the map or not but there's that one troll city in Eastern Plaguelands that is very close to Zul'Aman. I should probably mention that it's possible this was a second gate to the Zul'Aman.

Also maybe the kingdom of Stormwind was originally titled the King in Stormwind as to not upset those who named the continent and thus the kingdom Azeroth.
Are you talking about Zul'Mashar? Since that one is there. Close to Greenrush River, in the southern Amani Mountains.

Anyway, have you read my second "preview" post? Since I presented my take on the whole Azeroth/Stormwind name problematc there.

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Old 06-07-2015, 04:15 AM
Vaximillian Vaximillian is offline

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By the way, you can take a look at this. When I first saw your map, it immediately reminded me of Ashenmoon's fine work.
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Old 06-07-2015, 04:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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By the way, you can take a look at this. When I first saw your map, it immediately reminded me of Ashenmoon's fine work.
Hmm, I remember seeing this map a few years back. A fine piece of work. Wish I had skills to make my map look like that one. It would be glorious.
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:24 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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You added an island to Kul Tiras. Never in my life have I been so offended.



Overall though, nice integration of the WCI, II, III and WoW maps. I see you favour the more elongated continental shape of II over the bulbous shape of III or the rectangle of WoW, but you also include many of the later changes. Overall, the compromises between the maps seem to work really well, and I especially like how you handled the situation at Tyr's Hand.


Also, I really like the banner.
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:55 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You added an island to Kul Tiras. Never in my life have I been so offended.



Overall though, nice integration of the WCI, II, III and WoW maps. I see you favour the more elongated continental shape of II over the bulbous shape of III or the rectangle of WoW, but you also include many of the later changes. Overall, the compromises between the maps seem to work really well, and I especially like how you handled the situation at Tyr's Hand.


Also, I really like the banner.
Thanks, but I am not quite sure which island are you talking about. If you are talking about the small island between Kul Tiras and Crestfall, that is not my invention. I directly took it from the old World of Warcraft town hall map (which served the main basis for my map, since I always imagined it as the ultimate version Blizzard had envisioned).


Anyway, for those interested, I will post another preview of my work tomorrow.

Last edited by Marthen; 03-11-2016 at 02:23 PM..
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:33 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Are you talking about Zul'Mashar? Since that one is there. Close to Greenrush river, in southern Amani mountains.

Anyway, did you read my second "preview" post? Since I presented my take on whole Azeroth/Stormwind name there.
My whole post was awfully typed.

I meant the Stormwind idea as another possible theory on the name.

And, yes, I meant Zul'Mashar and again it was a theory.
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:58 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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On the name of Stormwind/Azeroth, how about this?

The kingdom was originally called Azeroth, with the capital Stormwind. When the Orcs came from Draenor to the planet Azeroth, they also landed in the kingdom Azeroth, and fought with the them; so they named/thought the whole planet as Azeroth. Eventually, through interactions with the Orcs, people started using Azeroth to refer to the planet, and to avoid confusion the kingdom was referred to as Stormwind after its capital city.

This is just a hypothesis that came to my mind, and might or might not hold up to scrutiny.
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Old 06-08-2015, 06:24 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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On the name of Stormwind/Azeroth, how about this?

The kingdom was originally called Azeroth, with the capital Stormwind. When the Orcs came from Draenor to the planet Azeroth, they also landed in the kingdom Azeroth, and fought with the them; so they named/thought the whole planet as Azeroth. Eventually, through interactions with the Orcs, people started using Azeroth to refer to the planet, and to avoid confusion the kingdom was referred to as Stormwind after its capital city.

This is just a hypothesis that came to my mind, and might or might not hold up to scrutiny.
I'm basing mine on the shortly lived title the King in Prussia. Just copying what Wikipedia has to say about it.

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Legally, Frederick was only an elector in his domains within the borders of the empire; he was only king in his former duchy. Even though Brandenburg was still legally part of the empire and ruled in personal union with Prussia, it soon came to be treated as a de facto part of Prussia.
Actually. this totally makes sense with what else has been said. The land was called the the Domain of Azeroth because it was technically part of the kingdom of Lordaeron, alebit semi-independent. However, one of the Wrynn rulers wanted to be king so he began to call himself (with permission granted by a Menethil king) the King in Stormwind. In Stormwind he was a king but outside of Stormwind he was not. When he would travel into the Domain of Azeroth he was only whatever title it was that the Domain of Azeroth granted him. And like Marthen said, around 590 years ago they also started calling themselves the Kings of Azeroth because they were now the kings of the much larger area that was the domain section. It also might signal the official break from Lordaeron ruled Azeroth to the current Stormwind ruled.

Or, it's also possible that they became the Prince in Stormwind and thus not the same rank as the Menethil king. It was only after they secured the Domain of Azeroth as part of their principality did they start to call themselves the Kings of Azeroth. Maybe the official Menethil title for awhile was King of Lordaeron and King of Azeroth.

Last edited by Mertico; 06-08-2015 at 06:29 AM..
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  #25  
Old 06-08-2015, 06:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'm basing mine on the shortly lived title the King in Prussia. Just copying what Wikipedia has to say about it.



Actually. this totally makes sense with what else has been said. The land was called the the Domain of Azeroth because it was technically part of the kingdom of Lordaeron, alebit semi-independent. However, one of the Wrynn rulers wanted to be king so he began to call himself (with permission granted by a Menethil king) the King in Stormwind. In Stormwind he was a king but outside of Stormwind he was not. When he would travel into the Domain of Azeroth he was only whatever title it was that the Domain of Azeroth granted him. And like Marthen said, around 590 years ago they also started calling themselves the Kings of Azeroth because they were now the kings of the much larger area that was the domain section. It also might signal the official break from Lordaeron ruled Azeroth to the current Stormwind ruled.

Or, it's also possible that they became the Prince in Stormwind and thus not the same rank as the Menethil king. It was only after they secured the Domain of Azeroth as part of their principality did they start to call themselves the Kings of Azeroth. Maybe the official Menethil title for awhile was King of Lordaeron and King of Azeroth.
Interesting theory. The thing is...why would the heirs of Arathi (who founded Stormwind) pay homage to Lordaeron and its kings? As far as we know, both kingdoms were founded at about same time, so how could a freshly established kingdom exercise dominion over another one, not to mention the one that was farthest of all the human kingdoms?

Last edited by Marthen; 03-11-2016 at 02:24 PM..
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