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  #26  
Old 06-08-2015, 07:02 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Interesting theory. The thing is...why would heirs of Arathi (who founded Stormwind) pay homage to Lordaeron and its kings? As far as we know, both kingdoms were founded at about same time, so how could a freshly established kingdom exercise dominion over another one, not to mention the one that was farthest of all human kingdoms?
I wasn't sure by who and when Stormwind was founded. You can easily swap a Menethil king and Lordaeron for another family and another kingdom. The basic idea is that Stormwind and Azeroth were separate titles for a time before the Wrynns claimed both and became kings of both.
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2015, 09:01 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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That is actually one of things to which I have been looking for a solution. On one hand, we have a Warcraft II map where Stratholme is located on northern shore of Darrowmere lake, while in every other material it is located on northern shore of Lordaeron (although still north of the Darrowmere lake). Now, one could just say that city was razed and rebuilt in different location...but is that really plausible for a city with population numbers ranging in tens of thousands? I am not really sure about that. But then again, with Stratholme sitting on northern shore of Lordaeron without any water connection to the Darrowmere lake, some of things seen in Warcraft II do not really make sense. So, what to do about it?

The solution I came with is the following one (by the way, I realized I uploaded a little bit older version of the map, so I am adding the latest version together with territorial version to the first post as well as to the later part of this post for you to see this solution). On the northern shore of Lordaeron, directly to the north of Darrowmere lake lies the so called Darrowmere bay. This bay is directly connected to the Darrowmere lake via Thondoril river, which unlike its in-game representation is a huge sailable river (as large as Danube or Rhine for example). Now, the city of Stratholme is a harbor city lying directly next to the mouth of Thondoril on shores of this Darrowmere bay. So, while it is not located on northern shores of the Darrowmere lake, it has direct water connection with it and is still a harbor city as well as large suplier of oil (of which there are large deposits in the Darrowmere bay).

Now, here is the updated version (clickable):


And here is the promised territorial (de facto, not de jure) version, right before the start of the First War (clickable):


Now, to explain a few things.

First, regarding a little bit "akward" borders between Alterac and Lordaeron. My personal theory (and the one I am going with in this project) is that formerly, the Barov family, owners of Caer Darrow, Tarren Mill, Southshore and Brill in Alterac* and surrounding area and the Blackmoore family, owners of the Durnholde Keep and its surroundings, were Alteraci noble families and their lands were thus part of Alteraci kingdom. But at some point of history, Alterac lost a war against Lordaeron, after which those families became a vassals of Lordaeron kings and their lands in turn became a part of Lordaeron. Also, Dalaran, who was a target of Alteraci agression in this war, gave Lordaeron a large swathes of land surrounding Hillsbrad as a token of gratitude for their help.

*Regarding Brill in Alterac and Brill in Tirisfal Glades. In this take on Warcraft, both exist, they just have same name. This is even somewhat realistic, medieval villages and towns were often name in same patter, for example there was a large number of villages called Lhota in medieval Bohemia.

Also, some may ask the following question; what the hell is this Domain of Azeroth? Where is the kingdom of Stormwind? Well...once again, this is basically a solution for the whole problem with Azeroth/Stormwind name. It is basically based on idea that yes, there is the kingdom of Stormwind and yes, it was originally founded with this name. But over time, as influence and power of Stormwind kings grew, they started to fancy themselves as rulers of the whole Azerothien* continent. And eventually, approx. 590 years before the start of the First War (start of the King's Calendar), they claimed a dominion over all of Azeroth, taking a title of the Defender of Azeroth (as seen on Llane's plaque). And those lands they claimed dominion over became known as the Domain of Azeroth (or as the Azerothien kingdom, named after its inhabitants*), being composed of the kingdom of Stormwind itself as of the island of Balor and the so-called Borderland, as well as being represented by its own distinct banner**.

*While inhabitants of the planet of Azeroth are known as Azerothians with adjective form being Azerothian, the (human only) inhabitants of the continent of Azeroth are known as Azerothiens, with adjective form being Azerothien.

**Azerothien banner before the First War. Composed of the lion of Stormwind, the icon of the Holy Light (Azerothien version) and the so-called Cross of Azeroth (as seen in Warcraft I, for example on the footman's shield or on the archer's tabard):
I like your history on Alterac as it matches my own headcanon. Additionally, I always thought Thoras wanted to split Alterac between Lordaeron and Stromgarde using that river.

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Dat map.
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I am glad you liked it.
Careful. Anini is the self declared official cartographer of SoL and I don't think he likes competition.
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  #28  
Old 06-08-2015, 12:28 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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A noble affair, if only a bit too limited by existing lore. Too little towns and cities actually named and described, too many background settlements we see in the RTS games that expand the game world, but stay unnamed. A historian's heart wishes to see more and more country-related info revealed and ready for study, but alas, Warcraft.
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  #29  
Old 06-08-2015, 12:40 PM
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I have far more to say on your work, but I'm at work. But I will say that I do not think that Kul Tiras was ever referred to as a "merchant republic" or anything other than as a monarchy with its titular monarch taking upon the preferred title of 'Lord Admiral."
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Old 06-08-2015, 02:02 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Careful. Anini is the self declared official cartographer of SoL and I don't think he likes competition.
Well, I hope he is not offended by this work then.

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A noble affair, if only a bit too limited by existing lore. Too little towns and cities actually named and described, too many background settlements we see in the RTS games that expand the game world, but stay unnamed. A historian's heart wishes to see more and more country-related info revealed and ready for study, but alas, Warcraft.
Yeah, that is why I had to resort to extrapolation based on the existing material. That is the only way to make world feel more "real" without completely throwing existing lore out of the window or without making of new stuff without any basis whatsoever. Which leads me to the last answer....

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I have far more to say on your work, but I'm at work. But I will say that I do not think that Kul Tiras was ever referred to as a "merchant republic" or anything other than as a monarchy with its titular monarch taking upon the preferred title of 'Lord Admiral."
As I said, this work is not only attempting to create some sort of reconciliation of existing material. That would not be enough to create a coherent image, since there are many blank spots and holes that needs to be filled. And this is one of those parts where I drawn most likely outcome based on a few little tidbits available and trends existing in the real world.

Now, you are right, there is (as far as I know) no mention of Kul Tiras being a "merchant republic". But we know a few things about it. First, it is merchant nation. That is its defining theme. It is mentioned many times both in games and written material. Second, it is primary a maritime nation. Once again, a very important theme. Now, the thing is...if we look at the real world, we can see a few trends upon which we can draw a few conclusions. First, a nations like this (ie nations base primarly around trade), even more so if they were completely independent, had low level of regal power, since power centralized in hands of one monarch was not really all that good for a trade. Second, instead of evolving into elective monarchies, like other nations with weak regal power did, they evolved into merchant republics, since power relied on wealth far more. Now, the whole matter is of course far more complicated, but still, even based on this, Kul Tiras being a merchant republic is actually quite plausible.

And that is not everything. Not only trends of the real world point out to this, but so do little details we know about Kul Tiras from official lore works. First of all, the title of rulers of Kul Tiras. Lord Admiral. While yes, it might be just a fancy title, why call yourself a lord, if you are a king? Why not Admiral King? It is quite strange to actually demote you rank like that. Unless it actually represents some kind of the first among equals. Also does not Lord Admiral kind of sounds more like a military title than title of the sovereign ruler? Second of all, there is a little detail, which recurs in first Warcraft novels. Merchant lords of Kul Tiras. They are mentioned in the Last Guardian and in the Day of the Dragon.

So, when you couple the real world trends and aforementioned details, it souncs like the merchant republic of Kul Tiras could be a thing. And that is why I choose to use it. But my interpretation is not of classical merchant republic. Instead, it is sort of mix between an elective monarchy and a merchant kingdom. One where there are many powerful families holding a title of the merchant lord, who in turn form some kind of council or conclave...and this conclave, apart from being a legislature body, elects the head of state and supreme military commander in one person. And this head of state, elected for life, is called the Lord Admiral. Oh, and Proudmoores, who pretty much one of the most powerful families (if not the most powerful), are holding this office for generations now.

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  #31  
Old 06-08-2015, 02:27 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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I'm really loving your speculation about Tirasian government. I'd only like to mention that Sean Copeland said it was still considered a city-state, and that Day of the Dragon described it as a "merchant nation".

Wouldn't it be more neutral to call Kul Tiras as "Merchant Nation of Kul Tiras"? Just a suggestion, though I completely agree with your reasoning about the merchant lords and the Grand Admiral (specifically, WotLK said the Proudmoores weren't royalty but nobility).
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  #32  
Old 06-08-2015, 02:41 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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I'm basing mine on the shortly lived title the King in Prussia. Just copying what Wikipedia has to say about it.



Actually. this totally makes sense with what else has been said. The land was called the the Domain of Azeroth because it was technically part of the kingdom of Lordaeron, alebit semi-independent. However, one of the Wrynn rulers wanted to be king so he began to call himself (with permission granted by a Menethil king) the King in Stormwind. In Stormwind he was a king but outside of Stormwind he was not. When he would travel into the Domain of Azeroth he was only whatever title it was that the Domain of Azeroth granted him. And like Marthen said, around 590 years ago they also started calling themselves the Kings of Azeroth because they were now the kings of the much larger area that was the domain section. It also might signal the official break from Lordaeron ruled Azeroth to the current Stormwind ruled.

Or, it's also possible that they became the Prince in Stormwind and thus not the same rank as the Menethil king. It was only after they secured the Domain of Azeroth as part of their principality did they start to call themselves the Kings of Azeroth. Maybe the official Menethil title for awhile was King of Lordaeron and King of Azeroth.
In addition to the question of why Stormwind kings were subject to other rulers, it doesn't seem to explain why the planet is called Azeroth.
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  #33  
Old 06-08-2015, 03:10 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Careful. Anini is the self declared official cartographer of SoL and I don't think he likes competition.
Cartography is fucking hard. If someone else wants to do, I'd be happy to abdicate.
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  #34  
Old 06-08-2015, 03:37 PM
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As I said, this work is not only attempting to create some sort of reconciliation of existing material. That would not be enough to create a coherent image, since there are many blank spots and holes that needs to be filled. And this is one of those parts where I drawn most likely outcome based on a few little tidbits available and trends existing in the real world.

Now, you are right, there is (as far as I know) no mention of Kul Tiras being a "merchant republic". But we know a few things about it. First, it is merchant nation. That is its defining theme. It is mentioned many times both in games and written material. Second, it is primary a maritime nation. Once again, a very important theme. Now, the thing is...if we look at the real world, we can see a few trends upon which we can draw a few conclusions. First, a nations like this (ie nations base primarly around trade), even more so if they were completely independent, had low level of regal power, since power centralized in hands of one monarch was not really all that good for a trade. Second, instead of evolving into elective monarchies, like other nations with weak regal power did, they evolved into merchant republics, since power relied on wealth far more. Now, the whole matter is of course far more complicated, but still, even based on this, Kul Tiras being a merchant republic is actually quite plausible.

And that is not everything. Not only trends of the real world point out to this, but so do little details we know about Kul Tiras from official lore works. First of all, the title of rulers of Kul Tiras. Lord Admiral. While yes, it might be just a fancy title, why call yourself a lord, if you are a king? Why not Admiral King? It is quite strange to actually demote you rank like that. Unless it actually represents some kind of the first among equals. Also does not Lord Admiral kind of sounds more like a military title than title of the sovereign ruler? Second of all, there is a little detail, which recurs in first Warcraft novels. Merchant lords of Kul Tiras. They are mentioned in the Last Guardian and in the Day of the Dragon.

So, when you couple the real world trends and aforementioned details, it souncs like the merchant republic of Kul Tiras could be a thing. And that is why I choose to use it. But my interpretation is not of classical merchant republic. Instead, it is sort of mix between an elective monarchy and a merchant kingdom. One where there are many powerful families holding a title of the merchant lord, who in turn form some kind of council or conclave...and this conclave, apart from being a legislature body, elects the head of state and supreme military commander in one person. And this head of state, elected for life, is called the Lord Admiral. Oh, and Proudmoores, who pretty much one of the most powerful families (if not the most powerful), are holding this office for generations now.
I would say that it's more implausible that Kul Tiras was a merchant republic given what we know of Warcraft. It is a merchant nation, but there have many merchant-oriented nations throughout history with strong central monarchies. These are by no means incompatible ideas.

Marthen, you have to be aware about how inconsistent Blizzard authors are with titles. In the WC2 manuals, Lord Admiral Daelin Proudmoore is never referred to as a king or Kul'tiras as a kingdom. So what? Neither are Alterac and Gilneas despite what we know to the contrary. Elsewhere, Genn Greymane is referred to as "king of Gilneas," but he is often addressed as "Lord Greymane" and not always "King Greymane" or "King Genn." Likewise Aiden Perenolde was king of Alterac, but he is referred to often as "ruler of Alterac," "master of Alterac," and simply as "Lord Perenolde."

Although it is now deemed non-canonical, the WoW RPG: Lands of Conflict refers to Kul Tiras as a 'hereditary monarchy.' More than that, Day of the Dragon also implies that Lord Admiral Proudmoore is the monarch of Kul Tiras:
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How much better to strengthen his hold than to wed the daughter of one of the most powerful of the kingdoms in the Alliance? Of course, not all of the reigning monarchs had had viable choices. In fact, at this moment in time, only Terenas and Daelin Proudmoore had daughters either single or beyond infancy. Jaina Proudmoore, either single or beyond infancy. Jaina Proudmoore, however, was much too young and, from what the dragon had so far researched, possibly already too difficult to control, or else he might have waited for her. No, Terenas's daughter would do just fine.
So here we see Deathwing include Daelin along with Terenas as the only monarchs with viable daughters for marriage. Indeed, Knaak often refers collectively to the rulers of the six kingdoms (minus Dalaran) as "monarchs" throughout Day of the Dragon.

Also Day of the Dragon never refers to Kul Tiras as a 'merchant nation,' only as a 'maritime nation.' Please correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot find any mention of Kul Tiras as a 'merchant nation' in Day of the Dragon, despite what you and WoWpedia say. It is referred to as a merchant-nation in the WC2 manual.

So yes, I am inclined to believe that Lord Admiral is more of a fancy title for the king of Kul Tiras than something that we should extrapolate republicanism into.

I am more inclined to think that the general habit of the Seven Kingdoms' monarchs to use the title "lord" stems not from non-monarchic forms of government, but as the titles used by the governing lords of the city-states that maintained titular ties with the Arathor Empire and its kings who gradually broke off to form the Seven Kingdoms. The use of "lord" over 'king' in many cases may simply be a honorarium of formality to these older times.

Edit: Upon closer reading, Kul Tiras is explicitly referred to as a 'kingdom' in the Warcraft 2 manual under "The Alliance of Lordaeron" (p. 39), which suggests that Kul Tiras is not a republic: "Lothar found a strong ally in his longtime friend Admiral Daelin Proudmoore of the seaside kingdom of Kul Tiras."

Last edited by Genesis; 06-08-2015 at 04:10 PM..
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  #35  
Old 06-08-2015, 03:55 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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In addition to the question of why Stormwind kings were subject to other rulers, it doesn't seem to explain why the planet is called Azeroth.
It would have been subject to another nation because of the way it was founded. Which it would be easy to theorize it was a colony of Arathor. My mistake was forgetting about Arathor and tossing Stormwind under Lordaeron's power. Colonies clearly exist in the Eastern Kingdoms because a place like Menethil Harbor exists.

One could say that Azeroth is a corruption of the word Arathor much in the same way emperor is a corruption of the word Imperator. Kaiser and tzar are a corruption of the word Caesar, for another example. Why would these be names of both a kingdom and a planet? Because they're named in honor of Arathor.

Any titan use of word Azeroth to describe the planet could be considered a translation since I would doubt the titans called the planet Azeroth.

Following up on this from Wowpedia:
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Following the defeat of the trolls, the human mages that had been instructed by the high elves eventually chose to leave Strom and found their own nation, Dalaran, dedicated to the study and use of magic. In time, other city-states were founded: Gilneas, Alterac, and Kul Tiras. Much of the nobility decided to move from Stromgarde to the fertile lands of the north, founding Lordaeron, while the heirs of King Thoradin travelled far south to form the kingdom of Azeroth (later known as Stormwind). The few remaining loyal defenders of Strom renamed it Stromgarde, a shell of what was left of a once-great empire.
So it would be easy to see why it was named the kingdom of Azeroth if Azeroth is a corruption of the word Arathor like I said.

Now, we can go a few places with this and I think either work:

1. Stormwind/Azeroth was founded before the fall of Arathor.

Or...

2. Stormwind and Azeroth were seperate kingdoms until they were joined by marriage or war.

This is mostly just theorizing.

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  #36  
Old 06-08-2015, 04:13 PM
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You may be overthinking the whole Stormwind vs. Azeroth name.

It's possible that the kingdom itself is formally "Stormwind" as the founding city-state, but considering that their territories, fiefdoms, and inhabitants expanded across the sub-continent of Azeroth, it functionally was the Kingdom of Azeroth.
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  #37  
Old 06-08-2015, 04:23 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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You may be overthinking the whole Stormwind vs. Azeroth name.

It's possible that the kingdom itself is formally "Stormwind" as the founding city-state, but considering that their territories, fiefdoms, and inhabitants expanded across the sub-continent of Azeroth, it functionally was the Kingdom of Azeroth.
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  #38  
Old 06-08-2015, 04:49 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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It's a game of one up-manship between the northerners and southerners. First, those pesky northern nobleman call their new nation Lordaeron, as a statement that "yep, we're totally gonna get this entire continent". In retaliation, the southern king calls his new nation Azeroth, because "screw you northern folk, I am still your king". The northern nobles got the last laugh in though, naming their new hang-out spot Capital City.
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2015, 05:00 PM
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It's a game of one up-manship between the northerners and southerners. First, those pesky northern nobleman call their new nation Lordaeron, as a statement that "yep, we're totally gonna get this entire continent". In retaliation, the southern king calls his new nation Azeroth, because "screw you northern folk, I am still your king". The northern nobles got the last laugh in though, naming their new hang-out spot Capital City.
According to the Seven Kingdoms in-game book, the name of the city-state itself was in fact 'Lordaeron.' 'Capital City' may simply be the city's nickname or a name that caught on like "Istanbul" ('to the city').
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Old 06-08-2015, 05:16 PM
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According to the Seven Kingdoms in-game book, the name of the city-state itself was in fact 'Lordaeron.' 'Capital City' may simply be the city's nickname or a name that caught on like "Istanbul" ('to the city').
I think that makes the most sense. The city is actually Lordaeron but since the kingdom is called Lordaeron they just call it Capital City because it's simple.
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  #41  
Old 06-08-2015, 05:27 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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So here we see Deathwing include Daelin along with Terenas as the only monarchs with viable daughters for marriage.
New headcanon: Tess Greymane was already betrothed to Isiden Perenolde at the time.
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  #42  
Old 06-08-2015, 05:39 PM
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New headcanon: Tess Greymane was already betrothed to Isiden Perenolde at the time.
Jaina was in the running, but even with her Deathwing indicated that he would have had to wait for her to be of a more appropriate age. Tess is probably younger than Jaina, so Tess may have been off the table based on her age alone. It is certainly possible that Genn tentatively planned to marry-off Tess to Isiden Perenolde, depending on his age. Or if Isiden was too old, then Tess could have been married off to his hypothetical son.
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Old 06-08-2015, 06:02 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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New headcanon: Tess Greymane was already betrothed to Isiden Perenolde at the time.
Tess was probably too young. She's still young when Cataclysm goes on.
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Old 06-08-2015, 06:06 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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One could say that Azeroth is a corruption of the word Arathor much in the same way emperor is a corruption of the word Imperator. Kaiser and tzar are a corruption of the word Caesar, for another example. Why would these be names of both a kingdom and a planet? Because they're named in honor of Arathor.
So are you saying that Azeroth is a word used only when speaking Common and that the orcs, night elves, etc. don't call it that way? (I mean today, in WoW's environment - of course in ancient times the night elves would have had a different word, though then again it's unclear if they would have distinguished the planet from 'Kalimdor.')
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Old 06-08-2015, 06:14 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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So are you saying that Azeroth is a word used only when speaking Common and that the orcs, night elves, etc. don't call it that way? (I mean today, in WoW's environment - of course in ancient times the night elves would have had a different word, though then again it's unclear if they would have distinguished the planet from 'Kalimdor.')
I am, except I think the Orcish word would be Azeroth as well since that was the first thing that they would have used as Medivih would have called it Azeroth. Unless it was Sargeras speaking to Gul'dan and the Orcs.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:22 PM
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Regarding Kul Tiras, Alterac and similar crap such as Gilneas: it bothers me a tiny bit that there aren't any other governmental ranks and titles other than kings and kingdoms in human nations. Where are the dukes? Princes? Barons? Counts? That's the beauty of feudalism — an imperial fuckton of hierarchically aligned landlords, warlords and whateverelselords, each of them claiming overlordship over his own little (or not) patch of land. Vassals, liege, fiefs, stuff like this.

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Old 06-08-2015, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaximillian View Post
Regarding Kul Tiras, Alterac and similar crap such as Gilneas: it bothers me a tiny bit that there aren't any other governmental ranks and titles other than kings and kingdoms in human nations. Where are the dukes? Princes? Barons? Counts? That's the beauty of feudalism — an imperial fuckton of hierarchically aligned landlords, warlords and whateverelselords, each of them claiming overlordship over his own little (or not) patch of land. Vassals, liege, fiefs, stuff like this.
Well there's Baron Rivendare.
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  #48  
Old 06-08-2015, 08:47 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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What about the barony held by Valimar Mordis in the Alterac Mountains?
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  #49  
Old 06-08-2015, 11:56 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I would say that it's more implausible that Kul Tiras was a merchant republic given what we know of Warcraft. "
Well, this is a common problem with interpretations. They differ from person to person.

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It is a merchant nation, but there have many merchant-oriented nations throughout history with strong central monarchies. These are by no means incompatible ideas.
I guess this has to do with a definition of a merchant nation. If you think of a merchant nation as of a nation whose economy is heavily based on trade and commerce, but nothing else, then you are right, But a merchant nation implies more than that. It implies that a nation is predominantly made of merchants, who serve as a backbone of the society and the state power. Which, coupled with a city-state setting (which Kul Tiras certainly was at the start and maybe is even in the modern era), far more often than not led to the evolution into a merchant republic. And while this is only an implication, it is reinforced by existence of merchant lords etc.

The Last Guardian, pp.3.
Quote:
of a Kul Tiras merchant lord
Quote:
Marthen, you have to be aware about how inconsistent Blizzard authors are with titles. In the WC2 manuals, Lord Admiral Daelin Proudmoore is never referred to as a king or Kul'tiras as a kingdom. So what? Neither are Alterac and Gilneas despite what we know to the contrary. Elsewhere, Genn Greymane is referred to as "king of Gilneas," but he is often addressed as "Lord Greymane" and not always "King Greymane" or "King Genn." Likewise Aiden Perenolde was king of Alterac, but he is referred to often as "ruler of Alterac," "master of Alterac," and simply as "Lord Perenolde."
Yes, but there is a difference. Proudmoore is never adressed to as a king, while others are (and more often than not). Not to mention, with exception of a Lord title, all these designations are hardly official titles.

Quote:
Although it is now deemed non-canonical, the WoW RPG: Lands of Conflict refers to Kul Tiras as a 'hereditary monarchy.' More than that, Day of the Dragon also implies that Lord Admiral Proudmoore is the monarch of Kul Tiras:
So here we see Deathwing include Daelin along with Terenas as the only monarchs with viable daughters for marriage. Indeed, Knaak often refers collectively to the rulers of the six kingdoms (minus Dalaran) as "monarchs" throughout Day of the Dragon.
Well, that actually does not disprove anything. Doges of Venice were designated as rulers of Venice in many historical texts concerning them. And the Republic of Both Nations (or the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth as it is known in english, although this is not really accurate) even had monarch (titled as a king) as its head of state, yet it still was defacto noble republic and even styled itself as such.

Quote:
Also Day of the Dragon never refers to Kul Tiras as a 'merchant nation,' only as a 'maritime nation.' Please correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot find any mention of Kul Tiras as a 'merchant nation' in Day of the Dragon, despite what you and WoWpedia say. It is referred to as a merchant-nation in the WC2 manual.
Actually, I have not said anywhere that Day of the Dragon stated as such. I said in both games and written material. If you interpreted it as every single piece of material, then I am sorry, should have phrased it differently.

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So yes, I am inclined to believe that Lord Admiral is more of a fancy title for the king of Kul Tiras than something that we should extrapolate republicanism into.
The core problem is, you are thinking of the modern sense republicanism which is kind of mutually exclusive with monarchism. Which is, as I demonstrated in example with the Republic of Both Nations, not really a case with historical republicanism found in Europe. You can have a merchant (or noble) republic which is at the same time elective monarchy (which is how i described Kul Tiras in my previous post). Hell, the monarch of such a nation can even be designated as a king and official name can very well be the Kingdom of "........" (who know, this might even be a case for Kul Tiras). But what matters is the form of government. Which is what I am discussing, not an official name of the state.

Quote:
I am more inclined to think that the general habit of the Seven Kingdoms' monarchs to use the title "lord" stems not from non-monarchic forms of government, but as the titles used by the governing lords of the city-states that maintained titular ties with the Arathor Empire and its kings who gradually broke off to form the Seven Kingdoms. The use of "lord" over 'king' in many cases may simply be a honorarium of formality to these older times.
About this one, I have a theory (based on statue plaque of King Lllane Wrynn) that it is a common habit among the human kings to use title of the Liege Lord of ".....". And based on this, those kings are often referred to as a lords.

Quote:
Edit: Upon closer reading, Kul Tiras is explicitly referred to as a 'kingdom' in the Warcraft 2 manual under "The Alliance of Lordaeron" (p. 39), which suggests that Kul Tiras is not a republic: "Lothar found a strong ally in his longtime friend Admiral Daelin Proudmoore of the seaside kingdom of Kul Tiras.
Hmm, but Dalaran is stated to be a kingdom multiple times as well (although not in WCII manual). There is even this quest called The Magical Kingdom of Dalaran. So, I am not sure if we can draw conclusions based on this, since kingdom is not really used in a lore material as indicative of any kind of government.

Last edited by Marthen; 06-09-2015 at 12:20 AM..
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  #50  
Old 06-09-2015, 09:06 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Here are some facts:
  • In Warcraft, "kingdom" seems to be used as a synonym with "country" or "state". Both Dalaran, Theramore and Kul Tiras have been referred as kingdoms, both neither of them had a ruler with the title of king/queen.
  • Kul Tiras was called "the city-state of Kul Tiras" by the time of the Second War, in Rise of the Lich King. That's unique among the so called "Seven Kingdom", who all transformed from city-states into proper kingdoms and a magocracy.
  • Jaina was specifically described as being noble, and not a member of a royal family, in Rise of the Lich King. This was confirmed by Sean Copeland on Twitter.
  • When asked about the Tirasian form of government, Sean Copeland said it was unknown, though he pointed out that Rise of the Lich King refers to Daelin as the "ruler of Kul Tiras" and not its king.
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