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  #51  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:11 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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A sound theory.

I have a different one (which can be easily combined with yours). During the times of ancient Kalimdor, the lands of Stormwind were actually very arid, almost a desert. So, the jungle trolls held nominal dominion over the land, but did not really inhabit it. And after the Sundering, they were too preoccupied by fighting their civil wars to actually expand to the north themselves. Hence why there are no actual ruins of theirs.
I like yours better.
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  #52  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:36 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Questions:

- why did you decide to make the region East of Loch Modan arid? It could very well be forest or grassland. Don't have any problem with that, just curious :p
It is a nod to Warcraft II, where the Badlands stretched up way to the north. Plus, it make more sense given how I set up the ocean currents around the Eastern Kingdoms.

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- should Loch Modan maybe have a bit more of green in it? Seems a bit strange but I understand due to elevation;
Sometimes, a picture is worth thousand words. This is how I imagine it.


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- do you imagine there being many other dwarven villages or town that are inside a mountain in the way of Ironforge? Or is that only for the largest cities?
A mix. So no, even smaller towns can be carved into mountains.

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- have/will you make up names for random villages and towns and such when you detail specific regions in the written part of the encyclopedia? It would be fun to see what other kind of names there are around, and give a bigger feeling to the world;
Perhaps at some point of time. I really need to finish what is already in works first, though.

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- a technical question: what exactly separates woods and forests? For example, what's the distinction between Elwynn Forest, Brightwood and Westwood? This happens in the real world too;
Woods and woodlands are generally less dense. Or smaller in size.

By the way, Brightwood and Westwood are technically also considered to be a part of Elwynn Forest (or rather, its extensions).

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- let's say a gryphon with a rider left Dalaran, what would the range be of one day of travel? I'm asking this for a sense of scale - I'm really bad at that xD
I am following the scale set up in The Last Guardian ( I believe it was the best Warcraft novel when it comes to that). So, flying from Stormwind to Karazhan would take a whole day.

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- what is Dun Morogh? The mountains are called Khaz, and the kingdom is Khaz Modan... So what is it?
A plateau. Take a look at the Tibetan Plateau versus the Himalayas for comparsion.

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- what are the borders of Khaz Modan? I'm specially interested in how much south the kingdom limits extend
You shall see soon enough.

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No problem, my friend.
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  #53  
Old 05-25-2016, 02:13 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Oh wow! I just realized that the Sanctum of the Moon and of the Sun are switched!

Are we going with Greenwood Hills is called Thalassian Range by the elves? If so, you could put that name there in (parentheses). By the way, where is Sun's Reach?

Don't you think one day from Stormwind to Karazhan seems a bit too fast? I mean, it makes the world look a bit too small.

Last edited by Ethenil; 05-26-2016 at 07:42 PM..
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  #54  
Old 05-26-2016, 10:47 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Oh wow! I just realized that the Sanctum of the Moon and of the Sun are switched!
I know.

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Are we going with Greenwood Hills is called Thalassian Range by the elves? If so, you could put that name there in (parentheses).
We do, but I think it will be enough for it to be mentioned in the text.

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By the way, where is Sun's Reach?
Does not exist yet.

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Don't you think one day from Stormwind to Karazhan seems a bit too fast? I mean, it makes the world look a bit too small.
Huh? It is 800 km in a beeline from Stormwind to Karazhan, and those two are not exactly too far away from each other. How does that make the world a bit too small?
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  #55  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:13 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Huh? It is 800 km in a beeline from Stormwind to Karazhan, and those two are not exactly too far away from each other. How does that make the world a bit too small?
I, uh, find it strange that a gryphon can fly the width of France in a day, but as I've said, I'm pretty bad with scale. I'm seeing now that 6000km (roughly Cape of Stranglethorn - Silvermoon (as per those 800km)) is 150% the distance between Lisbon - Moscow which is pretty far for a medieval civilization. Still, I'm yet to see a fantasy setting with a detailed planet bigger than Earth.

I sure do love random musings don't I?

Anyway, will you be making Ulmat Thondr another name (probably zandali) for Stranglethorn?
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  #56  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:37 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I, uh, find it strange that a gryphon can fly the width of France in a day, but as I've said, I'm pretty bad with scale.
Not sure what the problem is here. With an approx. speed of 50 km per hour, you could do this in 16 hours, assuming good weather.

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I'm seeing now that 6000km (roughly Cape of Stranglethorn - Silvermoon (as per those 800km)) is 150% the distance between Lisbon - Moscow which is pretty far for a medieval civilization.
Once again, not sure what the problem is. The Roman Empire spanned almost as much, and it was actually a singular political entity. The Eastern Kingdoms feature several civilizations, and each civilization is further broken into several political entities (bar the elven one).

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Still, I'm yet to see a fantasy setting with a detailed planet bigger than Earth.
Detailed as in showing almost everything on their maps? Do you understand how time consuming would that be to do?

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Anyway, will you be making Ulmat Thondr another name (probably zandali) for Stranglethorn?
I already did.
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  #57  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:47 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Not sure what the problem is here. With an approx. speed of 50 km per hour, you could do this in 16 hours, assuming good weather.



Once again, not sure what the problem is. The Roman Empire spanned almost as much, and it was actually a singular political entity. The Eastern Kingdoms feature several civilizations, and each civilization is further broken into several political entities (bar the elven one).



Detailed as in showing almost everything on their maps? Do you understand how time consuming would that be to do?



I already did.
Haha, you mistake me, I meant at the start that it seemed strange to me, but then I realized it was fine. Conclusion: everything's fine, and my quick research gave me a better understanding of scale and distance

- "What is the air velocity of an unburdened gryphon?
- "hinterlander or northeronian?".

As for the fantasy thing , I don't expect anyone to actually create that, it's just an observation, it's incredible how large Earth is in this sense.
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  #58  
Old 05-28-2016, 04:21 AM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
As for the fantasy thing , I don't expect anyone to actually create that, it's just an observation, it's incredible how large Earth is in this sense.
And if you add two other dimensions to the picture, like time and, let's say, "meaning" or "thought", it becomes an absolutely overpowering experience to handle. I remember when I realised how complex-yet-simple the world is as a kid; left me a raving lunatic with an insatiable need to express it by any means possible, including the irresponsible fancy that is world-building.
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  #59  
Old 05-30-2016, 04:10 AM
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So, the map has been updated to a newer, hopefully final, version.

I hope you will have a great time with it (I am also adding it to the first post).

Deviant Art link v2.

You can also expect the Second War version and a political map soon enough.
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  #60  
Old 05-30-2016, 06:02 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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So, the map has been updated to a newer, hopefully final, version.
Looks great! The harbor/fort merger was a nice solution. The Shadowforge/Blackrock Spire fix was simple, and it works.

So here are some follow-up questions:
* Where is Dun Argath? (I ask since you included Tol Ronal.)
* Do the humans of Azeroth have their own name for the Nazferiti River? (Not so much a map question but a lore one.)

Also, what is the "Moravian nationalist" comment in the DeviantArt post referencing?

Edit: Perhaps the internment camp or town of "Hammerfall" pre-existed the fall of Orgrim Doomhammer? From the Warcraft 3 Manual (p.9):
Quote:
THUNDER CLAP
First used by Murgen Hammerfall to decimate a swathe of invading gnolls in the Alterac Mountains, this powerful ability allows the mountain kings to slam the ground and cause destructive shockwaves of energy to damage their nearby enemies.
This passage has been used to point to the preexistence (and sovereignty) of dwarves in the Alterac Mountains before the Alterac Battleground, but it may also provide lore regarding Hammerfall itself.

Last edited by Genesis; 05-30-2016 at 06:19 AM..
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  #61  
Old 05-30-2016, 06:26 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Looks great! The harbor/fort merger was a nice solution. The Shadowforge/Blackrock Spire fix was simple, and it works.
Thanks.

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* Where is Dun Argath? (I ask since you included Tol Ronal.)
It is not included because I have not decided yet. At the moment, I am considering these two options.

1) I will interpret the forces in the mission as the Frostwolves and Stormpikes, having Dun Argath in Alterac. Basically, to make it a part of the Frostwolf plotline I told you of earlier.

2) It is somewhere off the coast of the Wild Highlands.

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* Do the humans of Azeroth have their own name for the Nazferiti River? (Not so much a map question but a lore one.)
What makes you think that is not their own name?

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Also, what is the "Moravian nationalist" comment in the DeviantArt post referencing?
I have absolutely no idea. I do not know the guy, and I would not call myself an ethnic nationalist, let alone a Moravian one.
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  #62  
Old 05-30-2016, 07:01 AM
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It is not included because I have not decided yet. At the moment, I am considering these two options.

1) I will interpret the forces in the mission as the Frostwolves and Stormpikes, having Dun Argath in Alterac. Basically, to make it a part of the Frostwolf plotline I told you of earlier.

2) It is somewhere off the coast of the Wild Highlands.
The latter could work. Check the WC2 map and then check out the Wild Highlands. That corresponds fairly well with the Dragonmaw Port and the island of Highbank. There's even a river south of the orc base, just like with Dragonmaw Port. So Highbank could be built atop Dun Argath. Or Dun Argath is the dwarven name given to the human port of Highbank, so humans - possibly a naval port those Gilnean/Tirasian settlers/explorers established for trade with the dwarves. "Argath" then could be a human whose name the dwarves applied to the settlement, much as they do with many clan names in the area: i.e. Dun Argath is the "Town of the Argath Clan (of humans)."

Alternatively, Dun Argath could be on Crestfall, since we know that the orcs used Crestfall as their main naval projection point in the Baradin Bay area. (Not sure why the dwarves would have a location there - given their lack of seafaring reputation - but who knows?) Or another alternative is that Dun Argath could be on the island north of Tol Barad.

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What makes you think that is not their own name?
True enough.

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I have absolutely no idea. I do not know the guy, and I would not call myself an ethnic nationalist, let alone a Moravian one.
Do you have a Moravian reference on the map?

And in case you didn't see it, I made another edit to my above post in reference to Hammerfall.
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  #63  
Old 05-30-2016, 07:23 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The latter could work. Check the WC2 map and then check out the Wild Highlands. That corresponds fairly well with the Dragonmaw Port and the island of Highbank. There's even a river south of the orc base, just like with Dragonmaw Port. So Highbank could be built atop Dun Argath. Or Dun Argath is the dwarven name given to the human port of Highbank, so humans - possibly a naval port those Gilnean/Tirasian settlers/explorers established for trade with the dwarves. "Argath" then could be a human whose name the dwarves applied to the settlement, much as they do with many clan names in the area: i.e. Dun Argath is the "Town of the Argath Clan (of humans)."

Alternatively, Dun Argath could be on Crestfall, since we know that the orcs used Crestfall as their main naval projection point in the Baradin Bay area. (Not sure why the dwarves would have a location there - given their lack of seafaring reputation - but who knows?) Or another alternative is that Dun Argath could be on the island north of Tol Barad.
I will consider it.

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Do you have a Moravian reference on the map?
Not at all.

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And in case you didn't see it, I made another edit to my above post in reference to Hammerfall.
Ah, apologies. At the moment, I am having Hammerfall a reformed orc warrior city formerly known as Black Hammer. The main stronghold of the Black Tooth Grin Clan in the north.
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  #64  
Old 05-30-2016, 07:45 AM
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I will consider it.
Then I would also add, consider the purpose of the mission: knock out the humans so that the Horde can construct transport ships. What's south of Highbank on your map? The Highland Forest, which would have provided ample lumber for the orc naval construction, especially given the relative dearth of woodlands in the Khaz Modan region.

(Admittedly, back in the days of Vanilla WoW, I had assumed that Westfall was woodlands during the First War, as per the WC1 map that shows woods around Moonbrook, and that it was deforested for purposes of the Horde navy.)

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Ah, apologies. At the moment, I am having Hammerfall a reformed orc warrior city formerly known as Black Hammer. The main stronghold of the Black Tooth Grin Clan in the north.
Okay, no worries. Why not Black Anvil? Since the hammer falls on the anvil?
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  #65  
Old 05-30-2016, 02:40 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Hey just wondering, why did you decide to put so many islands in the Channel?
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  #66  
Old 05-30-2016, 02:54 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Then I would also add, consider the purpose of the mission: knock out the humans so that the Horde can construct transport ships. What's south of Highbank on your map? The Highland Forest, which would have provided ample lumber for the orc naval construction, especially given the relative dearth of woodlands in the Khaz Modan region.

(Admittedly, back in the days of Vanilla WoW, I had assumed that Westfall was woodlands during the First War, as per the WC1 map that shows woods around Moonbrook, and that it was deforested for purposes of the Horde navy.)
Makes sense.

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Okay, no worries. Why not Black Anvil? Since the hammer falls on the anvil?
I wanted it to be a nod to the weapon of Blackhand, although this really works as well.

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Hey just wondering, why did you decide to put so many islands in the Channel?
Have you played Warcraft II?
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  #67  
Old 05-30-2016, 03:03 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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I wanted it to be a nod to the weapon of Blackhand, although this really works as well.
That wasn't so much as a suggestion as it was just piss-in-the-wind banter. Go with Black Hammer.

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Have you played Warcraft II?
Yeah, the Tol Barad mission was basically island hopping. But that wasn't the only mission that was just jumping from island to island.
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  #68  
Old 05-30-2016, 05:33 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I have only played a bit of Warcraft II Suggestion: the Great Cataclysm submerges most of those islands, and divides Tol Barad in two, making it how it is in-game.

About Dun Argath being a Gilnean or Tirasian settlement in the Highlands - is the Thandol Strait passable by ships? How narrow is it at Dun Modr? Because if not, then it's very difficult for Kul Tiras or Gilneas to have gone there. Although of course there are innumerous ways to fix this.

Runestones - are those marked in the maps the only ones or the greater ones? Also, what is the lore reason for there being an apparently random runestone at Caer Darrow?

Draenei - at what point in time did a group of Lost Ones cross the Dark Portal and make it up to the foothills of Redridge and build the Harborage?

Kul Tiras - what's up with so many "Sea Guard"s? Why don't they have individual names?

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  #69  
Old 05-30-2016, 10:17 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I don't get the love of the first two games; they were rather simplistic in a lot of ways and the Legion are damn good antagonists (with Legion especially showing off their a game).
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Old 05-30-2016, 10:52 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I have only played a bit of Warcraft II Suggestion: the Great Cataclysm submerges most of those islands, and divides Tol Barad in two, making it how it is in-game.
For what?

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About Dun Argath being a Gilnean or Tirasian settlement in the Highlands - is the Thandol Strait passable by ships? How narrow is it at Dun Modr? Because if not, then it's very difficult for Kul Tiras or Gilneas to have gone there. Although of course there are innumerous ways to fix this.
It is, although the Thandol Span made it somewhat more difficult.

Quote:
Runestones - are those marked in the maps the only ones or the greater ones? Also, what is the lore reason for there being an apparently random runestone at Caer Darrow?
The only ones. It is not an easy thing to make. As for the second question; I think I already answered that. Those runestones were formerly further south, moved only as the human race began to colonize these parts. The one at the isles of Darrow stayed because of the high elven druids.

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Draenei - at what point in time did a group of Lost Ones cross the Dark Portal and make it up to the foothills of Redridge and build the Harborage?
Have not decided yet, but I am thinking about the Second War.

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Kul Tiras - what's up with so many "Sea Guard"s? Why don't they have individual names?
I wanted to show the naval superiority of Kul Tiras without having to create too many random names. They are simple military bases.

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
I don't get the love of the first two games; they were rather simplistic in a lot of ways and the Legion are damn good antagonists (with Legion especially showing off their a game).
Okay? Why do you bring it up?
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  #71  
Old 05-31-2016, 06:21 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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For the canon Cataclysm era of your work ;p
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  #72  
Old 05-31-2016, 06:43 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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For the canon Cataclysm era of your work ;p
Have you forgotten I will not be doing that?
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  #73  
Old 05-31-2016, 12:49 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Have you forgotten I will not be doing that?
I have not :p

But you still have ideas for things that happen during that time, no? Like, for example, the shape of Tol Barad could be easily explained by the Cataclysm.

Marthen you have to teach me how you do all this so I can continue post-Frozen Throne when you're gone.

--------------------------------------------

Okay, so I thought it might be fun I was wrong to limit the area in your version of the Eastern Kingdoms that was inside the Kaldorei Empire of old as per Chronicles.

It gives an idea as to what areas had elven influence and possibly might have ruins or artifacts to be found. Stone Cairn Lake is a fun place to create a bit of lore for in this regard

http://i.imgur.com/0Oy9dwb.jpg

Last edited by Ethenil; 05-31-2016 at 08:06 PM..
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  #74  
Old 06-01-2016, 03:13 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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But you still have ideas for things that happen during that time, no? Like, for example, the shape of Tol Barad could be easily explained by the Cataclysm
The problem is my ideas diverge too greatly from the established canon.

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Marthen you have to teach me how you do all this so I can continue post-Frozen Throne when you're gone.
It is not hard. All you need is a thick skin and something to keep you from getting overwhelmed.
Quote:

--------------------------------------------

Okay, so I thought it might be fun I was wrong to limit the area in your version of the Eastern Kingdoms that was inside the Kaldorei Empire of old as per Chronicles.

It gives an idea as to what areas had elven influence and possibly might have ruins or artifacts to be found. Stone Cairn Lake is a fun place to create a bit of lore for in this regard

http://i.imgur.com/0Oy9dwb.jpg
Who is to say I do not plan on making it such (or similar)? I do not remember us speaking of this matter.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:58 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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The problem is my ideas diverge too greatly from the established canon.
For example? What in idea can't be reconciled with canon with a tweak such as the shape of the land?

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It is not hard. All you need is a thick skin and something to keep you from getting overwhelmed.
Define "thick skin".

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Who is to say I do not plan on making it such (or similar)? I do not remember us speaking of this matter.
What's in your mind?
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