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  #51  
Old 06-26-2016, 01:44 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Yes, but saying "Scotland wants Independence" is wrong. Even saying "A majority of Scots want independence" would be wrong.

Independence was not the subject of the EU referendum.

Sensationalist hysteria is bad, I do not think this thread should exist.
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  #52  
Old 06-26-2016, 01:47 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
It's the majority isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Yes, but saying "Scotland wants Independence" is wrong. Even saying "A majority of Scots want independence" would be wrong.

Independence was not the subject of the EU referendum.

Sensationalist hysteria is bad, I do not think this thread should exist.
Thankfully I'm saying that a majority of Scots want to be part of the EU and that that Brexit may strengthen the pro-Independence movement among Scots.
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  #53  
Old 06-26-2016, 02:42 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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The EU has gone and snubbed Scotland anyway.

They have to apply, and that can lead to a situation in which Spain can snub them.
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  #54  
Old 06-26-2016, 03:03 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Apparently 62% is an entire country now.
Why not? 52% of Britons are causing their entire kingdom to leave the EU. How are 62% irrelevant when 52% aren't?

Normally, it's idiotic to have a second referendum this quickly after the first one. But obviously the entire political Status Quo has changed. Under these circumstances, Scotland has the right to reevaluate their ties.
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  #55  
Old 06-26-2016, 04:14 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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The difference here is the rhetoric.

None of the SNP's rhetoric is acknowledging the 38%, like they were so quick to go "BUT REMEMBER THE 45%" during the first independence referendum.

Meanwhile, Leave campaigners are the ones going "Remember the 48%".

Double standards galore from the SNP and Remain campaigners at the moment, and it's helping no one.
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  #56  
Old 06-26-2016, 08:49 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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One is actively calling for more solidarity, the end of the social system which allows the 1% to act as parasites of the rest of society. The other direct the anger of the people at those who are different in skin colours, religion and wealth. The latter is obviously wrong and evil. Replacing the Jews by the Muslims doesn't make the party less racist.
No extreme are good. And the left extreme always turned out extremely bloodthirsty too so you must really be naive to think this time it will turn out just fine.

EDIT: Why would Spain snub Scotland?
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  #57  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:20 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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EDIT: Why would Spain snub Scotland?
Fear of a precedent that can be used by catalogne
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  #58  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:26 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Fear of a precedent that can be used by catalogne
Or the Euskadi.

Man, it's gotta be complicated living in a country where distinct cultural/linguistic/historically unique groups live in specific regions that have local governments of the same mindset. I love the U.S.A.
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  #59  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:32 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Or the Euskadi.

Man, it's gotta be complicated living in a country where distinct cultural/linguistic/historically unique groups live in specific regions that have local governments of the same mindset. I love the U.S.A.
Don't you guys have plenty of native groups with a great measure of sovereignty too?
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  #60  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:41 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Apparently 62% is an entire country now.
Well, since apparently 52% is an entire country now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit for clarity: Ceci est un shitpost.
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  #61  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:46 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Yeah, which means it's quite obvious the entire country didn't want the result. As I've said repeatedly.

It's the (sensible) Leave campaigners who have been going "Remember those who didn't vote for this, and make it work for them"

Your reply provided precisely zero substance to the discussion.
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  #62  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:47 AM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Don't you guys have plenty of native groups with a great measure of sovereignty too?
Things are not very positive in Native American Reservations.
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  #63  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:49 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Yeah, which means it's quite obvious the entire country didn't want the result. As I've said repeatedly.

It's the (sensible) Leave campaigners who have been going "Remember those who didn't vote for this, and make it work for them"

Your reply provided precisely zero substance to the discussion.
See, this is why I added the edit.

It was a shitpost for the sake of levity, not an attempt at making an actual point, and I wasn't sure the shrug emoji was a good enough indicator.
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  #64  
Old 06-26-2016, 10:43 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Don't you guys have plenty of native groups with a great measure of sovereignty too?
Yes and no. There are Indian reservations with special rules, but nothing on the scale of a state government. The closest is Hawaii, but I don't know how strong nativist sentiment is there (Just look at the first Hawaiian president - Obama. Not exactly an ethnic Pacific islander, yeah?) The next closest is Puerto Rico, but they're a commonwealth instead of a state. I doubt it'd be a huge deal for us if they wanted to secede - right now they get a lot of privileges (taxation wise) but sacrifice a lot of influence for it (representation and voting wise).

I actually didn't know Puerto Rico had delegates in the primaries until this year. They don't get to vote in the general election.

EDIT: For those of you into the American Civil War, understanding Scottish local identity helps a lot in empathizing with Southern identity at the time. The terms "sectionalism" and "states rights" were wrapped tightly around that slavery issue, and you can grasp it more deeply when you reflect on why Scotland seceding is less ridiculous than, say, the city of London seceding.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-26-2016 at 10:53 AM..
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  #65  
Old 06-26-2016, 11:25 AM
Morvant Morvant is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
It's the majority isn't it?
Come on, don't be daft, it's only a majority if it agrees with my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korath View Post
One is actively calling for more solidarity, the end of the social system which allows the 1% to act as parasites of the rest of society. The other direct the anger of the people at those who are different in skin colours, religion and wealth. The latter is obviously wrong and evil. Replacing the Jews by the Muslims doesn't make the party less racist.
You are being massively biased here. On an ideological basis I suppose. The Left Party is no less an extremist demagogic party than the FN.

Also, the FN spend the last years successfully incorporating the far left rhetoric of fight against the system, the 1%, the evil EU liberalism and such, into their usual "immigrant are stealing our jobs" and "muslims are taking over".

It is the addition of those far left talking point that has made the FN so successful the past years, and allowed them to bleed the far left of so much of their electors.

Many voters, and not just voters, but militants, are leaving the far left to join the FN. Unionist usually attached to the communist party are now looking toward the far right.

I mean, come on, just look at Soral's trajectory. He is not an exception.

Branding them as evil won't change the fact that there are more and more of them. And most of them are coming straight from the far left.
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  #66  
Old 06-26-2016, 11:54 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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They are coming from the Left because the Left parties have gave up on the poor peoples. That's why Mélenchon isn't even close to the Far-Right's behaviour. Sure, he has a terrible personality, half of the time, I find him quite distasteful. But the man also has some serious commitment to his beliefs. he actually left the PS because of it when it was simply not viable to leave it, and even managed to strive.

The rise of the FN is more the result of the Center-Right (PS) and Right (LR) parties to actually better the lives of all the population, instead of the higher socio-economic groups. Combined with terrorism, years of the Right speaking about communautarism without doing nothing to solve this problem, the resurgence of the hard Right with La Manif pour Tous, it isn't surprising at all that the FN is growing.

Now that Melenchon have a clearer position on Europe, his party may begin to get back voters who drifted toward the FN.
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