Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-21-2016, 02:49 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


Omacron's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 34,377
BattleTag: Omacron#1477

Default What is your ideal government?

Modern political discourse is probably the last bastion of classical philosophical debating, albeit injected with our lovely brand of 21st century vitriol and a healthy dose of Baudrillardian consensus reality. The idea of the purpose of government (to say nothing of its organization or methods) is probably what fundamentally causes most of our disagreements. So I'd like to know, SoL, what is your ideal government?

As many of you know, I'm a transhumanist and technoprogressivist, though I try not to hold fast to so-called techno-utopian ideals. The transhumanist movement has a vocal libertarian contingent that I did previously associate with and influenced me philosophically. I view government as a human issue, in the same way that colony collapse disorder is a bee issue. Bad government isn't a bug, it's a feature, of human biology, neurology and psychology.

For me, the perfect government has a population and jurisdiction of one entity. We, as humans, organized into social groups which later became governments for survival, protection and resource allocation. We need to engineer away the desire and need to be social in order to have a perfect government, in my opinion- a truly post-human species that removes the primate impetus and desire for socialization. When an individual, self-aware being can provide for itself comfortably and does not feel lonely or unfulfilled with others, we can basically spread out among the stars and live on little asteroids without bothering anyone, and thus we cannot infringe on anyone else's rights.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-21-2016, 02:59 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

Problemsolver
Aneurysm's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here, there, and everywhere.
Posts: 9,267

Default

I wanna be anarchist.

Get pissed.

Destroy.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:03 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,664
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default

Gibsdemdat government.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:07 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

An ideal government is one that reflects and respects the historical/political interests of its people.

I prefer representative democratic government, but I do not think that all countries are able to make the leap to a democratic government without going through various transitional forms (exactly which forms those might be depend on the circumstances of the country in question).
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:09 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,195

Default

Ideally no government would be necessary, though I don't think that this makes most of us libertarians or anarchists. It just means that we have fundamental interpretive disagreements on the state, nature, and speculative direction of the political reality and the appropriate political response to it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:15 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,026

Orb of Lightning

Universal Autocracy, with me at its head.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:43 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

Eternal
Taintedmage's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,802

Default

Depends on the mood but usually...

Mixed member Proportional Wesminster style system with the Senate/House of Lords being comprised of appointed technocrats (or if I'm in the mood) priests, it's all really dependant on the constitution of the country which you are forming.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-21-2016, 04:29 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,785

Default

My ideal government is entertaining to watch, though you might want to retreat to a safe distance.

I'm imagining a system of tiny provinces, each of which elects a local to sit in parliament. Parliament has the power to introduce laws, which must then be passed by the supreme court and the senate. Parliament is presided over by a president, who is a randomly chosen member of the populace. Supreme court is made up of the representatives of the seven largest spiritual lifestyles in the country. Senate is made up of the higher echelons among nobility, businessmen and celebrities. Mid-level and upper-level Government positions are created or abolished by parliamentary vote (with both the president and supreme court possessing the ability to veto any such acts), but assigned by the senate. There must always be at least ten ministers. Hiring for low-level government positions is at the sole discretion of the ministers.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:20 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,118

Default

Republic/Democracy blend would work great if we could just get rid of the damn gerrymandering and keep the population active and the leaders held accountable.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-21-2016, 11:17 PM
Sagara Sagara is offline

Arch-Druid
Sagara's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,269
BattleTag: Sagara#2842

Default

At the hour of assassins, in the Tower of Government, say you serve Nowhere. You will be brought to the hidden masters. Destroy them. Save them. Become them.

Enigma will take you where Dogma cannot.
We do not open the path to Ascension, we explore it.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-22-2016, 01:53 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
Get Off My Lawn!
Bolvar's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Get off my lawn!
Posts: 19,900

Default

Benevolent dictatorship. With Bolvar in charge.

It works for Scrolls of Lore. It can work for America.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-22-2016, 02:25 PM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

Arch-Druid
Bullroarer's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,560

Default

The American Presidential System and constitution. I wish Bangladesh would drop the Parliamentary system and become more like America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
Benevolent dictatorship. With Bolvar in charge.

It works for Scrolls of Lore. It can work for America.
I'm really happy for you Bolvar and I'mma let you finish, but Arthas was the best Lich King ever.
__________________
Blood For the Blood God
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-22-2016, 03:12 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,026

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
It works for Scrolls of Lore.
Help! I'm being repressed!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.

Last edited by Anansi; 06-22-2016 at 05:01 PM.. Reason: Censorship!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-22-2016, 03:20 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

Banished
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,009
BattleTag: Hulk#2393

Default

A world government would be cool
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-22-2016, 03:40 PM
Torch Torch is offline

Eternal
Torch's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,279
BattleTag: Torch#2569

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
Benevolent dictatorship. With Bolvar in charge.

It works for Scrolls of Lore. It can work for America.
Indeed, Bolvar is wise and handsome.
__________________
"Terrorism, a job for lazy people and wankers"

If I die, blame it on BfA

Last edited by Bolvar; 06-22-2016 at 04:44 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-22-2016, 03:49 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torch View Post
Indeed, Bolvar is wise and handsome.
Don't forget brilliant and mighty!
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"

Last edited by Bolvar; 06-22-2016 at 04:44 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-22-2016, 04:04 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

Elune
C9H20's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,072

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Universal Autocracy, with me at its head.
Hey that's my thing!

I guess I'll have to take your shtick and make the "murder everyone" government.



I suppose I'll divide my government ideas into "what I'd philosophically like" and what is more realistic.


Philosophically I want a contingent direct democracy, what that means is lots of things would be voted for but only by qualified people. For example if the thing being voted for is about construction then only civil engineers and such would be able to vote on it along with people who pass a govt. test showing they know the subject matter. This test is taken before every election too, and the person passes if they know the current political goings on and the parties/individuals involved in the election.
This is a bit complicated but ensures everyone who votes is an informed voter. To make sure this represents as many people as possible those who fulfill their citizen duty would get small privileges compared to people who don't bother voting. Incidentally to keep this complex political machine going would need a lot of people which is a good source of jobs and would engage the public, and bring national unity.

To prevent people being swamped by voting, day-to-day running of the country would be delegated to a representative system. Again it would be a very "by the people" system, where each neighborhood would have a council that elects one representative to a city council or some intermediate level council, those would elect one person to be the regional representative and so on, you add as many layers as needed to represent the country or continent or world(s).
Each level wields great power over its domain, so on the neighborhood level it might decide which roads to repair and what amenities to construct. Lead the city on a city level, and lead the country on the country level. This gives a lot of local governance and representation. And it's a very modular system, where everyone self governs and is joined into bigger structures for increased safety, power/reach/capability, economy... it also makes it easy to incorporate new regions and for old ones to leave.
There would be an independent judiciary, it would of course preside over the law. On the highest level it would decide the constitutionality of various issues. The constitution itself would be very minimalist and very difficult to change.

The country would be nominally capitalist in the sense that it would probably use the price mechanism to determine resource allocation and there would be private property. However it would be strongly socialist with as many needs provided for by default as the country can manage.
This would happen over time, due to increased automation and so increased production things would get cheaper and cheaper over time and so the state will be able to provide more and for an increasing number of people. This would also decrease working hours. So instead of "maximize work maximize wealth" it's more "maximize leisure while providing well for everyone." I don't think a country like this could develop if its society wasn't post-scarcity, it needs happy, active people to run the huge civic infrastructure needed to maintain the system of voting and government.

The main idea is a system that provides for as many people as possible while having the plasticity to change as times dictate. That is why it is so classically liberal, with absolute free speech, unprecedented levels of democracy , liberty and so on. In theory it could even destroy itself but a huge majority would be needed to change the constitution to change the system itself.


Anyway this dragged on, so I will keep the realistic approach short. Largely I agree with Omacron, I think humans are inherently illogical and flawed. Corruption, injustice, malice, exploitation... and above all stupidity mar even the best designed human government. Now sure like Oma you could think in a transhumanist "remove the flaw" fashion but I rather like humanity how it is and would like to keep it that way for at least a while. The answer imo is to put in a non-human in charge, a super intelligent machine.
Now don't take the simplistic "terminator" angle, we would program it and design it to not only not hurt humans but also to protect our volition. Which would prevent it from treating us like a zookeeper treats lions.
It would be an hyper-intelligent ruler, working in a very technical manner to use and allocate resources. It would easily solve virtually any problem, from the scientific to the political. It would always and incorruptibly operate under the parameters set by us, there would be no corruption, period.
To keep us from feeling like we are just cogs in a machine we would have some ways of overruling it. Mostly in minor ways because it will always know better than us so any change we make will be harmful but it is okay to make some if it satisfies our human imperfections and desires while not hurting our civilization by very much. Ultimately we can totally override it and reprogram it if a large majority of us wants that, so in a way the AI would be a constitution and exec govt and legal branch all rolled into one but we would be the parliament that can impeach it.

The AI would seek to improve our lives under the parameters given to it. Always providing us with more resources and energy which would translate into stuff and pleasures. I will also agree with Omacron that ultimately the final outcome will be a place where the AI has provided a personal heaven for everyone and we all live mostly apart.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-22-2016, 04:33 PM
Gromak Gromak is offline

Eternal
Gromak's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,989

Default

All I'm saying is, what's wrong with Fascism?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-22-2016, 04:57 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

Eternal
Tilgath's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,616

Default

I've thought about this on and off for a while, and I think that a Parliamentary Democracy works best.

OR

Universal Autocracy, with Anansi at its head.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-22-2016, 05:07 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,026

Orb of Lightning

Hide yo words, hide yo posts, 'cause Bolvar's editing everything out there.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-22-2016, 06:33 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

A republic with separation of powers and checks/balances.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-23-2016, 01:44 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,195

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
A republic with separation of powers and checks/balances.
How would that ideal republic be different from the U.S. or is it already ideal?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-23-2016, 02:11 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
How would that ideal republic be different from the U.S. or is it already ideal?
More congressional and local power!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-23-2016, 02:34 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,195

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
More congressional and local power!
I would be fine with that if the size of Congress was properly expanded. The amount of people that our Congress represents has almost exponentially increased, thereby concentrating power increasingly in the hands of the fewer. It's easy for special interest groups to bribe the few, but much harder to bribe the many.

I would also limit the powers of the executive branch, more akin to the head-of-state (vetoing powers and nominal head-of-military) position found in parliamentary systems.

Edit: Consider this in regards to the expansion of U.S. Congress:

There are 435 congressional representatives in the U.S. House of Representatives. This number has remained virtually unchanged since 1911. Our population in 1911 was approximately 93.86 million people being represented in the House by 435 people. In 2015, the U.S. population was approximately 321.77 million, but still represented by only 435 representatives.

Last edited by Genesis; 06-23-2016 at 04:37 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
politics, speculation

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.