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  #51  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:48 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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By the Gods, what is that rancid and awful smell?

Oh, it's miffy.
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  #52  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Hillary's loss is blamed on white people, especially traitorous white women, on social media. Just look on twitter.
Oh, Twitter is okay again?

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  #53  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:54 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Why
Thats not what's being daid, and that's pretty standard for Milo, who's an admitted second wave feminist.

Milo's argument is that women don't need special treatment and are more than capable of performing if they aren't coddled (which is why he mentions Pakistan) and that the belief that many modern feminists have that women aren't "competitive " and can't keep up with men, so need to be coddled with woman only classes is an inherently toxic argument for woman being seen as equals.

His next step is then saying "and then if it's trup women need to be treated special, why are we wasting grant money and spots on them when they can go to people who drop out less and perform better.

Milo is an asshole provocateur.

But he isn't sexist
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:56 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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The politics threads in a nutshell.
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  #55  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:02 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Perhaps calling people bigots and all sorts of buzzwords for disagreeing wasn't the best strategy of the left. The protests don't do it any favors either. The left had all the support in the world while Trump only had internet shitposters and he still won. It's weird how people refuse to acknowledge the Left helped Trump's win with it's inane campaign. What was Hillary's slogan again other than calling out at Russia? It's hard for me to sympathize with the new Left as it keeps being racist against white people. As a white man with fairly liberal views I have no idea why American minorities hate me so much.


They don't. In some ways you're rather bigoted (you think it's okay for people to hate refugees). Many people the left accuse are in fact bigots.

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Thats not what's being daid, and that's pretty standard for Milo, who's an admitted second wave feminist.

Milo's argument is that women don't need special treatment and are more than capable of performing if they aren't coddled (which is why he mentions Pakistan) and that the belief that many modern feminists have that women aren't "competitive " and can't keep up with men, so need to be coddled with woman only classes is an inherently toxic argument for woman being seen as equals.

His next step is then saying "and then if it's trup women need to be treated special, why are we wasting grant money and spots on them when they can go to people who drop out less and perform better.

Milo is an asshole provocateur.

But he isn't sexist
No he is. His getting his followers to launch a barrage of racist and sexist tweets against Leslie jones. His saying women should log off when fave with harrassment or saying "men's internet". Milo thinks women are subhuman. He's also made racist jokes.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.ibtim...?client=safari

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...-yiannopoulos/

Milo deserved all the bile

Last edited by Ol'Yoggy; 11-22-2016 at 11:08 AM..
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  #56  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:19 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I personally think the Democrats need to come to terms with the fact that they aren't the party of the working class anymore. Trump won working class people in the rust belt. Big government isn't seen as an ally to these people and Democratic social policies are perceived as hostile to their way of life. Washington DC, Hollywood, and Higher Education is just as much of an establishment elite as big business is so they are no longer seen as underdogs or the little guys. If Republicans can maintain their middle/upper class voters and grab these rural blue collar workers they will continue to dominate state legislatures, governors, congress, and the presidency. If the Democrats decide to double down on their big government policies they will push themselves further into the minority just like the UK Labour Party.

If funding is cut and jobs lost in the government work force, higher education, and welfare will these voters adapt to their new environment in the next 4-8 years?
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:23 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I think it is a bit early to extrapolate all of that PJ.
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  #58  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:24 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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No he is. His getting his followers to launch a barrage of racist and sexist tweets against Leslie jones. His saying women should log off when fave with harrassment or saying "men's internet". Milo thinks women are subhuman. He's also made racist jokes.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.ibtim...?client=safari

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...-yiannopoulos/

Milo deserved all the bile
All, of course, taken out of context.

He didn't "get" anyone to go after Leslie Jones, and while that was a horrible thing all together, his comments were A) not racist (if memory serves) and B) when she was already being under attack. He's an asshole, and that I don't like, but he wasn't the cause of that, and he got unfairly blamed for it.

As for "women getting off the internet" and "mens internet" you are, again, ignoring the cultural reasons and also failing pretty hard to read what he's saying (read between the lines with him).

His stance was that "Hey, men receive FAR more harassment online than women, here's who said it.. So why is it only an issue if it happens to women? Why should an entire culture and system adapt itself to cater to a small subset of a demographic, when their gender isn't even the one receiving most of the harassment..

Men are fine with it.. Why shouldn't woman be, and if they can't learn to put up with the same stuff men do, then they shouldn't use it, because it's unrealistic and unfair to treat them as a special class that gets more rights, more protection, and more care.

His argument is, again, that treating women like they are weaker and in need of special treatment is the antithesis of feminism and equal rights.

It was one of the main points of his Feminism is Cancer tour, in which multiple second wave feminists participated.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:26 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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How do we get to determine if something is sexist or not?
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  #60  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:34 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I personally think the Democrats need to come to terms with the fact that they aren't the party of the working class anymore. Trump won working class people in the rust belt. Big government isn't seen as an ally to these people and Democratic social policies are perceived as hostile to their way of life. Washington DC, Hollywood, and Higher Education is just as much of an establishment elite as big business is so they are no longer seen as underdogs or the little guys. If Republicans can maintain their middle/upper class voters and grab these rural blue collar workers they will continue to dominate state legislatures, governors, congress, and the presidency. If the Democrats decide to double down on their big government policies they will push themselves further into the minority just like the UK Labour Party.

If funding is cut and jobs lost in the government work force, higher education, and welfare will these voters adapt to their new environment in the next 4-8 years?
I sort of agree with the premise, just not the conclusion. The Democrats definitely lost the working class, because the working class is mostly evaporating. So did the Republicans. Trump does not stand for the Republican values you frequently tout, PJ. He's not a classic fiscal conservative, he's on the lunatic fringe of Tea Partyism at best, and looking at his proposed cabinet, may usher in the age of American fascism.

The fact of the matter is that working class Americans cannot afford healthcare anymore, cannot afford insurance or their kid's education any longer, and perspectives are grim. They have rejected corporate establishment candidates for someone they perceived to be different and not another sock puppet, and of course have utterly bought into the myth - just like you have with your talk of social policies being the culprit. Such detachedness can only come from a position of relative comfort, which is why all Republican establishment candidates were crushed by a dangerous populist, just like the Democratic establishment candidate was slapped for her hubris.

People wanted change, drastic change. They were denied Sanders on the Left by the good old boys, so they didn't vote or even voted out of protest just to punish the DNC.

The real lesson to be taken away here needs to be that we are in a post-factual age. Actual facts do not matter in politics anymore. Facts like global warming, the reasons for economic decline or facts about real or perceived foreign threats. They don't matter, all that matters is that you appeal to base fears and that the other side fucks up enough.

This was not a counter-reaction of moral conservatives and Republicans, they are a minority. This was a "fuck you" to the establishment of both Republican and Democrat governments of the past 20-30 years, the fact that they voted in someone who stands for much of the same and far, far worse sort of flew over most voters' heads. America is not 50% racist and sexist. But it is growingly desperate and apathetic towards Washington.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:41 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I sort of agree with the premise, just not the conclusion. The Democrats definitely lost the working class, because the working class is mostly evaporating. So did the Republicans. Trump does not stand for the Republican values you frequently tout, PJ. He's not a classic fiscal conservative, he's on the lunatic fringe of Tea Partyism at best, and looking at his proposed cabinet, may usher in the age of American fascism.

The fact of the matter is that working class Americans cannot afford healthcare anymore, cannot afford insurance or their kid's education any longer, and perspectives are grim. They have rejected corporate establishment candidates for someone they perceived to be different and not another sock puppet, and of course have utterly bought into the myth - just like you have with your talk of social policies being the culprit. Such detachedness can only come from a position of relative comfort, which is why all Republican establishment candidates were crushed by a dangerous populist, just like the Democratic establishment candidate was slapped for her hubris.

People wanted change, drastic change. They were denied Sanders on the Left by the good old boys, so they didn't vote or even voted out of protest just to punish the DNC.

The real lesson to be taken away here needs to be that we are in a post-factual age. Actual facts do not matter in politics anymore. Facts like global warming, the reasons for economic decline or facts about real or perceived foreign threats. They don't matter, all that matters is that you appeal to base fears and that the other side fucks up enough.

This was not a counter-reaction of moral conservatives and Republicans, they are a minority. This was a "fuck you" to the establishment of both Republican and Democrat governments of the past 20-30 years, the fact that they voted in someone who stands for much of the same and far, far worse sort of flew over most voters' heads. America is not 50% racist and sexist. But it is growingly desperate and apathetic towards Washington.
Well, except for the fact that Sanders wasn't change either....

I shouldn't be agreeing with you.

Miffy, you need to post something different here. Change your right opinion to something wrong. (Well, I guess the Facism is close enough to being wrong)
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  #62  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:44 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Well, except for the fact that Sanders wasn't change either....

I shouldn't be agreeing with you.

Miffy, you need to post something different here. Change your right opinion to something wrong. (Well, I guess the Facism is close enough to being wrong)
How was Sanders not change? He represented everything the Washington establishment was vehemently attempting to keep down, from both sides of the fence.

As far as fascism goes, when you have people like Bannon being proposed, free speech and freedom of the press already openly being "discussed" before he even takes office, and proposed measures like deporting millions of Americans based on their ethnicity......

I actually believe and hope that on the flipside of things, this may prove to be the best thing to happen to America in the long term. Things need to get really fucking ugly, they need to get scary as hell, before people realize what they're actually voting for. This may help finally get a real progressive Left rolling on an unseen scale in a few years, but in the meantime it may come down to actual resistance.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:48 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I sort of agree with the premise, just not the conclusion. The Democrats definitely lost the working class, because the working class is mostly evaporating. So did the Republicans. Trump does not stand for the Republican values you frequently tout, PJ. He's not a classic fiscal conservative, he's on the lunatic fringe of Tea Partyism at best, and looking at his proposed cabinet, may usher in the age of American fascism.

The fact of the matter is that working class Americans cannot afford healthcare anymore, cannot afford insurance or their kid's education any longer, and perspectives are grim. They have rejected corporate establishment candidates for someone they perceived to be different and not another sock puppet, and of course have utterly bought into the myth - just like you have with your talk of social policies being the culprit. Such detachedness can only come from a position of relative comfort, which is why all Republican establishment candidates were crushed by a dangerous populist, just like the Democratic establishment candidate was slapped for her hubris.

People wanted change, drastic change. They were denied Sanders on the Left by the good old boys, so they didn't vote or even voted out of protest just to punish the DNC.

The real lesson to be taken away here needs to be that we are in a post-factual age. Actual facts do not matter in politics anymore. Facts like global warming, the reasons for economic decline or facts about real or perceived foreign threats. They don't matter, all that matters is that you appeal to base fears and that the other side fucks up enough.

This was not a counter-reaction of moral conservatives and Republicans, they are a minority. This was a "fuck you" to the establishment of both Republican and Democrat governments of the past 20-30 years, the fact that they voted in someone who stands for much of the same and far, far worse sort of flew over most voters' heads. America is not 50% racist and sexist. But it is growingly desperate and apathetic towards Washington.
You are completely wrong here. You don't go by the facts. You are just rigidly uncompromising and narrow minded enough to not accept anything that deviates from your established view. At least outwardly you are. I think internally you just hate doubting yourself so much you talk down to anything that challenges your view. You don't know why the economy isn't optimal or what our foreign threats are. Your posts would have considerable less volume without all the arrogant puss.

I don't live in Austria so this is closer to home and I grew up in the areas Trump won and have family that work as engineers and managers in manufacturing. It is those blue collar workers on the assembly lines who are registered Democrats that voted for Trump because of his promise to bring manufacturing jobs back. Regulatory burden and high corporate tax from a selfish and incompetent government is only one of the many reasons our manufacturing isn't competitive anymore. These people don't want a hand out though. Milton Friedman's negative income tax would probably be their preferred form of welfare. Free college wouldn't help them because most of them don't have the inclination to sit in a classroom and many colleges offer useless degrees just to get the governments money that wouldn't help their job prospects anyways. A big government zaps productivity which shrinks wages and decreases the value of the dollar.

Trump isn't a traditional Republican and his deviations have helped him win over disenfranchised Democrats but this has been happening for awhile now as Democrats have moved from being the party of labor to be this odd coalition of academics, government workers, cultural elite, and racial minorities. They don't find a home among Republican aristocratic tendencies but socially the rust belt is pro-military, pro-patriotism, pro-religion, pro-cop, and pro-2nd amendment. Unless the Democrats can temper their social policies or help them more economically they are going to continue to lose them.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:53 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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How was Sanders not change? He represented everything the Washington establishment was vehemently attempting to keep down, from both sides of the fence.
Because he was full of shit.

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As far as fascism goes, when you have people like Bannon being proposed, free speech and freedom of the press already openly being "discussed" before he even takes office, and proposed measures like deporting millions of Americans based on their ethnicity......
"freedom of the press" and "Free speech" aren't already being openly discussed. You are just fear mongering. Loosening up Libel laws under private party isn't threatening free press. It's holding people accountable for telling lies.

The only one who actually threatened news in this election was Hillary, who sent out an email saying she wanted to destroy Breitbart. There is the new "fake news" thing, but it's a direction largely pushed by the left.

As for Bannon..

You are really going to have to give me a solid example of why you say that.

"Look at this stuff the paper published while he was in charge" isn't really a solid example. You are plenty intelligent enough to figure out why.

Quote:
I actually believe and hope that on the flipside of things, this may prove to be the best thing to happen to America in the long term. Things need to get really fucking ugly, they need to get scary as hell, before people realize what they're actually voting for. This may help finally get a real progressive Left rolling on an unseen scale in a few years, but in the meantime it may come down to actual resistance.
What do you mean by progressive left?

If it's socialist, yeah, no.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:59 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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You are completely wrong here. You don't go by the facts. You are just rigidly uncompromising and narrow minded enough to not accept anything that deviates from your established view. At least outwardly you are. I think internally you just hate doubting yourself so much you talk down to anything that challenges your view. You don't know why the economy isn't optimal or what our foreign threats are. Your posts would have considerable less volume without all the arrogant puss.

I don't live in Austria so this is closer to home and I grew up in the areas Trump won and have family that work as engineers and managers in manufacturing. It is those blue collar workers on the assembly lines who are registered Democrats that voted for Trump because of his promise to bring manufacturing jobs back. Regulatory burden and high corporate tax from a selfish and incompetent government is only one of the many reasons our manufacturing isn't competitive anymore. These people don't want a hand out though. Milton Friedman's negative income tax would probably be their preferred form of welfare. Free college wouldn't help them because most of them don't have the inclination to sit in a classroom and many colleges offer useless degrees just to get the governments money that wouldn't help their job prospects anyways. A big government zaps productivity which shrinks wages and decreases the value of the dollar.

Trump isn't a traditional Republican and his deviations have helped him win over disenfranchised Democrats but this has been happening for awhile now as Democrats have moved from being the party of labor to be this odd coalition of academics, government workers, cultural elite, and racial minorities. They don't find a home among Republican aristocratic tendencies but socially the rust belt is pro-military, pro-patriotism, pro-religion, pro-cop, and pro-2nd amendment. Unless the Democrats can temper their social policies or help them more economically they are going to continue to lose them.
The key point here being economic concerns. The fact that you and people like you are just completely wrong on the laughable notion of trickle-down economics and Reaganism and are totally missing the blatantly obvious when it comes to the economy (hint: it's the corporate stranglehold on both Republican and Democratic governments that's been pulling the rug out from under you regardless of your preferences in terms of social policy) is sort of besides the point. Trump won voters that would have voted Bill Clinton in the 90s. Simply because he promised them something they knew they wouldn't get from Hillary - jobs. The fact that he can't deliver on that either, and that no establishment government ever could the way our system works, is sort of irrelevant in the face of the result.

Your ridiculous anti-intellectualism and notion that people on the Left are just deluded college kids speaks volumes and pours out of every single one of your posts.

You do realize that most working class Americans need a college education to be able to be engineers and working class Americans...right? That's not even touching the subject of rampant globalization and those kinds of jobs being projected to continue to diminish drastically over the next few decades, but heck, it's a starting point for you to come to terms with the reasons for economic worries. Cutting social policies and privatized healthcare and education always, always lead to growing class divide and declining opportunities for advancement. That is what you are suggesting as the solution, however. Remember that Einstein quote I'm so fond of when it comes to you?
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:08 PM
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Most people can't be engineers because they aren't good enough at math and science. Most people don't get engineering degrees and instead get something easier that doesn't mean anything. These blue collar workers would be better off becoming plumbers or electricians or some other hands on technical job and college is inefficient when it comes to that form of training. Taking the government out of the student loan business and scrutinizing federal research grants to keep colleges in line is a massive step towards improving social mobility and social cohesion.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:13 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Most people can't be engineers because they aren't good enough at math and science. Most people don't get engineering degrees and instead get something easier that doesn't mean anything. These blue collar workers would be better off becoming plumbers or electricians or some other hands on technical job and college is inefficient when it comes to that form of training. Taking the government out of the student loan business and scrutinizing federal research grants to keep colleges in line is a massive step towards improving social mobility and social cohesion.
Education and loans for it are not limited to humanities at college. You don't become an electrician or a "blue collar worker" in general with a highschool degree in the sense you are proposing. You seem frightfully out of touch with what modern jobs of that profession require.

Yes, because letting private profit interests run rampant in core aspects of our daily lives has worked out so very well for us in the past...[insert long list of effects of privatized healthcare, education, insurance etc].

You have been living in that world of "keep the government out" for decades now while corporations run wild. And yet you still insist that same thing will get the cart out of the muck. It's fascinating =)
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:20 PM
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Most people can't be engineers because they aren't good enough at math and science. Most people don't get engineering degrees and instead get something easier that doesn't mean anything. These blue collar workers would be better off becoming plumbers or electricians or some other hands on technical job and college is inefficient when it comes to that form of training. Taking the government out of the student loan business and scrutinizing federal research grants to keep colleges in line is a massive step towards improving social mobility and social cohesion.
I do actually like some of Trump's educational policies. Clinton's talk about free college was a big strike against her, IMO (though she may have just been trying to capitalize on disaffected Sanders supporters--regardless, it's a bad idea).
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:20 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Education and loans for it are not limited to humanities at college. You don't become an electrician or a "blue collar worker" in general with a highschool degree in the sense you are proposing. You seem frightfully out of touch with what modern jobs of that profession require.

Yes, because letting private profit interests run rampant in core aspects of our daily lives has worked out so very well for us in the past...[insert long list of effects of privatized healthcare, education, insurance etc].

You have been living in that world of "keep the government out" for decades now while corporations run wild. And yet you still insist that same thing will get the cart out of the muck. It's fascinating =)
The federal government doesn't need to pay for any of those things for people to get them. The cost would drop considerable if people had to pay out of pocket or the government favored more merit based education money because right now colleges are fashioned like country clubs and have bloated administrations. They cater to people that don't care about going to school. Cost isn't the biggest hurdle unless you want to dumb down the degrees to the point of worthlessness. You could get private loans for a degree that was useful. The US didn't become the wealthiest nation in the world and win the Cold War from any of your proposals. Your doom and gloom reeks of a spoiled entitlement because the US, even the poor, are extremely well off. It is all relative and there is no need to tear down the most successful system ever created.

Are you more afraid of Trump being right or Trump being wrong?
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:21 PM
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To be fair, healthcare and insurance isn't the reason healthcare and insurance is so high.

Medical supplies and sales is.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:22 PM
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To be fair, healthcare and insurance isn't the reason healthcare and insurance is so high.

Medical supplies and sales is.
It is also because of elasticity of demand, malpractice insurance, and badly managed government policies.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:24 PM
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The best part about america having trump instead of say sanders is that America will continue to be a developin country.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:29 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I do actually like some of Trump's educational policies. Clinton's talk about free college was a big strike against her, IMO (though she may have just been trying to capitalize on disaffected Sanders supporters--regardless, it's a bad idea).
I agree. I just knew the house would have blocked all of that.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I agree. I just knew the house would have blocked all of that.
Most likely. Has Trump gone into any more detail about improving access to vocational education? I know he's talked about it, but I haven't heard many specifics. Google didn't bring up that much.

My only concern is that some of the for-profit schools (like perhaps Trump University) can be pretty shady. They're very expensive, and the skills they provide aren't always up-to-date. But there are also good vocational schools. Do you think some kind of accreditation system for vocational education would be in order?
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Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 11-22-2016 at 12:37 PM..
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:53 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Thats not what's being daid, and that's pretty standard for Milo, who's an admitted second wave feminist.

Milo's argument is that women don't need special treatment and are more than capable of performing if they aren't coddled (which is why he mentions Pakistan) and that the belief that many modern feminists have that women aren't "competitive " and can't keep up with men, so need to be coddled with woman only classes is an inherently toxic argument for woman being seen as equals.

His next step is then saying "and then if it's trup women need to be treated special, why are we wasting grant money and spots on them when they can go to people who drop out less and perform better.

Milo is an asshole provocateur.

But he isn't sexist
"So by rights that cap on female places should – if we’re feeling optimistic – be set at between 5 and 10 per cent. Any higher and we’re giving in to ideology and social engineering, rather than looking at what the numbers say and respecting women’s choices." - Milo
How is what he said not what's being said...?
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