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  #51  
Old 03-24-2014, 12:01 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I think that for an RTS game, StarCraft has put in more effort for immersion than either Diablo and WoW, and those are fantasy games.
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  #52  
Old 03-24-2014, 12:46 PM
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WoL disappointed me because I expected more from Starcraft (based on SC1 and some books) and it had some really dubious plot points (everything about Tychus' mission and situation mostly) but still it was much better than Warcraft is. That is pretty much all that people are saying, that SC is miles ahead of WC even though it has its own problems. And yes, it did lose in quality somewhat in the sequels.

However it is good, enjoyable and it can keep my attention, it is decent in so many words. The story is sensible enough, and the universe is colorful (what with all that extra info in game, as well as in Project Blackstone), things are more realistic and that makes the characters and the whole setting more believable, it has enough stuff to work while Warcraft only makes me groan in frustration and sometimes laugh in incredulity at how bad things get.
All of this.

But specifically on the bold point; Indeed. I found Arcturus Mengsk's portrayal in WoL and HotS to be a disgrace, especially after the books. He went from being a brilliant, complex, villain to a cartoon, mustache-twirling, cutout baddy. It was pathetic.

But it was STILL better than WoW-era WarCraft's Lore and character development. I mean....Deathwing in Cata, nuff said.
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  #53  
Old 03-24-2014, 01:53 PM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
All of this.

But specifically on the bold point; Indeed. I found Arcturus Mengsk's portrayal in WoL and HotS to be a disgrace, especially after the books. He went from being a brilliant, complex, villain to a cartoon, mustache-twirling, cutout baddy. It was pathetic.

But it was STILL better than WoW-era WarCraft's Lore and character development. I mean....Deathwing in Cata, nuff said.
But mad, insane villains with no reason can be cool sometimes.
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  #54  
Old 03-24-2014, 02:01 PM
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But mad, insane villains with no reason can be cool sometimes.
No one is saying they can't sometimes. But Mengsk was cool because he was a clear-eyed, intelligent political mastermind.
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  #55  
Old 03-24-2014, 02:02 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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But mad, insane villains with no reason can be cool sometimes.
Depends on how it's done and who. Deathwing was the wrong character for it, or at least they did it in the wrong way. A guy like him needs to be shown as falling into madness, not already crazy but we learn why through a story, or see how he's still somewhat intelligent in a book.
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  #56  
Old 03-24-2014, 03:28 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Hardly. There are many things that could have been done to make the games better (Have Amon fleshed out, make an actual appearance, have a linear story so that the main character's development is more obvious). I even think Kerrigan's arc could be improved by having her have to confront her past mistakes as the queen of blades, rather than just have her bulldoze her way through her foes for 3/4 of the story before finally being forced to admit that she's being selfish and growing into a better person. I feel that those like TSCR who say that WOL or HOTS destroyed the lore are being overly dramatic.

And honestly Megnsk was always someone who, while smart, could loose his temper if things really didn't go his way (his anger after Kerrigan double crosses him and when Raynor tells him to go fuck himself. The entire reason he was in shit in media blitz was because his temperamental ranting about "I will rule or see the galaxy burn") His actions on the Moros were pretty freaking ruthless (especially the "you and raynor can burn together" line), and the taunt he gives Kerrigan about how Raynor would probably hate her was also very very good because it's actually true. His increasing raving as Kerrigan closes in was also well handled; even as his forces fall he still clings to the delusion that he can win. And for the record his original quote of "take your vengeance and choke on the ashes" would have been better. He's lost everything, his armies have fallen and he's about to die. Him having a villainous breakdown would be entirely in character.

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  #57  
Old 03-24-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
All of this.

But specifically on the bold point; Indeed. I found Arcturus Mengsk's portrayal in WoL and HotS to be a disgrace, especially after the books. He went from being a brilliant, complex, villain to a cartoon, mustache-twirling, cutout baddy. It was pathetic.

But it was STILL better than WoW-era WarCraft's Lore and character development. I mean....Deathwing in Cata, nuff said.
Maybe he was getting old and complacent? I thought that the whole 'controlling the media' angle was laughable in WoL, but he was good overall.
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  #58  
Old 03-24-2014, 05:39 PM
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Maybe he was getting old and complacent? I thought that the whole 'controlling the media' angle was laughable in WoL, but he was good overall.
It was amateur by even real world standards of effective media control, especially when Kate remained unaffected.
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  #59  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:13 PM
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The friggin dialogue is just so bad. And anything you can take away from WoL or HotS thematically or even in terms of scope I feel is done better in SC1 or brood War.

Which aside from the gameplay and improved graphics make the games just feel unnecessary to me.
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  #60  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:16 PM
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The friggin dialogue is just so bad. And anything you can take away from WoL or HotS thematically or even in terms of scope I feel is done better in SC1 or brood War.
And still, sadly, somehow lightyears ahead of Warcraft.

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Which aside from the gameplay and improved graphics make the games just feel unnecessary to me.
I've heard that there is an updated version of Starcraft and Brood War crafted that uses the SC2 engine and graphics. I'd be curious to see how that plays.
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  #61  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:27 PM
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And still, sadly, somehow lightyears ahead of Warcraft.
Really depends.

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I've heard that there is an updated version of Starcraft and Brood War crafted that uses the SC2 engine and graphics. I'd be curious to see how that plays.
I saw some of it, wasn't a huge fan...
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  #62  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:41 PM
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It was amateur by even real world standards of effective media control, especially when Kate remained unaffected.
I think maybe it's just because Mengsk earnestly thinks he's a hero; as a result, instead of a state-run media parroting scripted content, he opted for a state-leveraged one so that he could convincingly play the hero by feeding the news media what they wanted to hear, in effect relying as much on the talking heads eagerly eating up the party line as on the threat of censorship. In short, if the lies being reported were actually believed by the news outlets rather than just mechanically regurgitated by them, it "justified" the whole thing. Conversely, if he'd maintained a Confederacy/UED-level lockdown the news, he'd have been admitting to himself how full of crap he was.

So he left them comparatively uncontrolled, because he was savvy enough to keep what limited freedom of movement he allowed the media always pointed at someone other than himself. Where the Confederacy would have just always had snipers pointed at every head from the start to maintain control, Mengsk was a lot more reliant upon his charisma and personal legend to fill in the gaps and allow just enough visible freedom of thought to keep those thoughts where he wanted them and not come across as just another Confederate-style dictator. The outer colonies were being pushed around and later abandoned to the zerg invasion, but he'd managed to boost his public image by sheltering the core worlds against the need for such blatant oppression through clever public manipulation. On Mar Sara the locals were being treated as disposable mulch and silence with bullets, but the citizens of Korhal weren't being shot by marines, and so they lived with the impression that things were better and freer under Mengsk than they'd been under the Dominion.

It worked as long as he had good news and juicy tales of sedition and terrorism to give them, but as soon as they got fed a story about him that was just too huge to pass up, it backfired and he was faced with the unpleasant prospect of preaching human unity against the enemies of mankind while his troops publicly mowed down humanity in the streets of Korhal.

As we saw when Jim confronted him after Tarsonis, Mengsk does not react well when his charisma stops working and people start demanding answers. He wants people to buy his spiel, because on some level he believes it himself. That's what keeps him from being completely detached; if he goes completely over the edge, he's just the Confederacy, nuking billions of people on Korhal just to shut them all up and make an example of them. The fate of Korhal let him justify Tarsonis to himself, but as soon as he starts forcing people to believe at gunpoint who aren't guilty of doing the same thing, he's admitting that his own legend as the "savior of humanity" is a big, fat, self-important lie.

In all likelihood that's not something Mengsk is capable of truly admitting to himself, so even as he had Kate Lockwell throwing unpleasant questions about unpleasant realities in his face, he couldn't really pull the trigger and start having everyone locked up or executed, because he'd be admitting what he really is to himself and to the rest of humanity. It would be his own nuking of Korhal, and that would be intolerable to him.
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  #63  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:41 PM
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Really depends.
But on a consistent basis?

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I saw some of it, wasn't a huge fan...
Good to know.
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  #64  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:45 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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But on a consistent basis?
I really don't like StarCraft 2. Honestly, Cataclysm onward is better to me than StarCraft 2... for the most part...
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  #65  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:49 PM
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I really don't like StarCraft 2. Honestly, Cataclysm onward is better to me than StarCraft 2... for the most part...
I would disagree. Cataclysm was just abhorrent and MoP had a little too much derp and character assassination.
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  #66  
Old 03-24-2014, 08:08 PM
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I would disagree. Cataclysm was just abhorrent and MoP had a little too much derp and character assassination.
Cataclysm was messy, but I still thought it got to the heart of the characters who had actual exposure better than StarCraft 2 did overall. And I loved all the 5.1 stuff in MoP. (Outside of Garrosh who's never been consistent, and Jaina where I just sort of disagree with the direction they took her in; I don't see much character assassination. The Varian fellatio was tiresome as always, though.)
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  #67  
Old 03-24-2014, 11:57 PM
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I hope that Amon's character will be properly developed in the last part of the trilogy. He is the main villain of StarCraft 2, but I just don't care about him. We know about him so little, that you can even turn Ulrezaj or Voice in the Darkness (from StarCraft: Frontline) into the main villians.
And I want at least one or two serious plot twists, like the ones from Brood War. And the Protoss should have some super-duper kick-ass units in the campaign: carriers with laser cannons, mothership with the "Planet Cracker" from Safe Haven mission, dark archons, purifiers from Ghost and reavers!
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  #68  
Old 03-26-2014, 04:26 AM
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Going by Blizzard's recent writing shenanigans, I think it's highly likely that the Protoss will retake Aiur during LoTV.
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  #69  
Old 03-26-2014, 11:41 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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One of the earliest established facts was that diplomacy would e involved. As such the best way to have it be involved would be to make the choices drive the plot (i.e. some guys want to invade aiur, some don't, to unite the tribes you have to choose one or the other)
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  #70  
Old 03-26-2014, 08:41 PM
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Going by Blizzard's recent writing shenanigans, I think it's highly likely that the Protoss will retake Aiur during LoTV.
As long as they do it without magic, I'm all for it.

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One of the earliest established facts was that diplomacy would e involved. As such the best way to have it be involved would be to make the choices drive the plot (i.e. some guys want to invade aiur, some don't, to unite the tribes you have to choose one or the other)
That was 6 years ago. I doubt much of anything they said would make it into the production.
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  #71  
Old 03-29-2014, 03:10 PM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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I have wondered for awhile if we would get a 4th expansion with it being everyone vs Amon with a lot of play on the prophesies involving his return.
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  #72  
Old 03-29-2014, 06:05 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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As long as they do it without magic, I'm all for it.
What do you consider magic? Because Kerrigan being able to gain control over those zerg seems legit to me (unless there's something I'm missing) but for other its may seen like an easy way out.
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  #73  
Old 03-29-2014, 08:13 PM
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What do you consider magic? Because Kerrigan being able to gain control over those zerg seems legit to me (unless there's something I'm missing) but for other its may seen like an easy way out.
Xel'Naga relics. I want a real military victory for the Protoss without any plot-devices or the aid of other races. Just the Protoss taking their home back by storm.
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  #74  
Old 03-29-2014, 08:14 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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  #75  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:14 PM
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Going by Blizzard's recent writing shenanigans, I think it's highly likely that the Protoss will retake Aiur during LoTV.
I want it to happen, but what issue would divide the protoss (a known theme of the expansion) more than sacrificing Aiur to defeat Amon? Then again, StarCraft II is rather upbeat. It is either Aiur or rehashed Dark/High Templar racism.
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