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  #5876  
Old 06-25-2018, 04:51 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Garona is as much Draenei as she is Orc and it's ironic that people forget that because she has green skin.
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  #5877  
Old 06-25-2018, 05:03 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Garona is as much Draenei as she is Orc and it's ironic that people forget that because she has green skin.
Genetically, but she’s only ever been involved with orcs. She was raised (albeit brutally) by Orcs. She has never had anything to say about the Draenei side of the family. She’s only ever defined herself in relation to her orcish heritage.
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  #5878  
Old 06-25-2018, 05:46 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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It also further implies the trend of Blizzard treating undeath as a magical allegiance changer even with nominal free will which is by far the most irritating aspect of how its been treated since Cataclysm.
Hasn't it always been like that?
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  #5879  
Old 06-25-2018, 06:19 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Considering how we have a novel telling us Forsaken totally deserve rights, the devs apparently haven't really been bothered to pick a stance and see it through. Which is, are Undead ultimately just monsters wearing the flesh of those gone or mouldy Humans/Knife-ears/Whatever who are only cackling supervillains from the Alliance/Human's meanness towards them?

The Forsaken really were a bad idea for the setting. Undead as established in WC3 just aren't suitable as a playable Race for a game like WoW (or at least for the direction WoW went in what with its two factions). They depend on contrivances like "No Tirion's posse doesn't see throwing plague bombs around as worhy of their attentions" and "Yes turning Joe McJoeson Undead makes him pal around with Greenskins then go LOK'TAR OGAR FOE DA HOORD on his Human neighbors." Them even pulling the Lightforge card at this point comes off as a concession that Undead as they are now are damn messy.

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  #5880  
Old 06-25-2018, 07:06 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Considering how we have a novel telling us Forsaken totally deserve rights, the devs apparently haven't really been bothered to pick a stance and see it through. Which is, are Undead ultimately just monsters wearing the flesh of those gone or mouldy Humans/Knife-ears/Whatever who are only cackling supervillains from the Alliance/Human's meanness towards them?

The Forsaken really were a bad idea for the setting. Undead as established in WC3 just aren't suitable as a playable Race for a game like WoW (or at least for the direction WoW went in what with its two factions). They depend on contrivances like "No Tirion's posse doesn't see throwing plague bombs around as worhy of their attentions" and "Yes turning Joe McJoeson Undead makes him pal around with Greenskins then go LOK'TAR OGAR FOE DA HOORD on his Human neighbors." Them even pulling the Lightforge card at this point comes off as a concession that Undead as they are now are damn messy.
I've always wondered why Blizzard chose the forsaken to be playable. I've heard that WCIII was developed with the WoW in mind so why did they make them(and Sylvanas)ruthless and evil? The 'Tragic Monster' trope can work if the monsters in question are sympathetic, and most important, NOT EVIL.

The common explanation of having the forsaken in the Horde is to give the Horde a foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms to counter the Alliance Night Elves. But couldn't they have chosen some other race? Like Goblins decide to settle together in the Eastern Kingdoms. Boom, you've got a race on the other continent. It would've saved SO much pain for this game.
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  #5881  
Old 06-25-2018, 08:41 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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The last time I tried to ask this, people refused to give me a straight answer and tried to bite my head off, but - why is it a big deal if Garona is or isn't part of the Horde?

I just don't understand the consternation. I've never really paid attention to this character and now I'm confused.
Garona's time under the old Horde was spent as a child of rape, artificially aged, mind controlled, and enslaved. After she broke free in the Second War she never looked back and in fact went around assassinating her Shadow Council slavemasters.

She was close friends with Khadgar, Lothar, and Grandpa Wrynn, and she's half draenei. She has just as much if not more ties to the Alliance as she does to the Horde, so her old dialogue saying "the Horde has always been my home" made no sense. Furthermore in beta she used to brag about killing Llane and saying "maybe I should kill another king", which completely ignores how every depiction of her doing that has had it be a mind control command from Gul'dan and she was crying as she did it. She was not proud of it in the least, it broke her.

Note that I'm not saying I want her on Alliance either, just that her being on Horde is ridiculous.
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  #5882  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:36 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Garona's time under the old Horde was spent as a child of rape, artificially aged, mind controlled, and enslaved. After she broke free in the Second War she never looked back and in fact went around assassinating her Shadow Council slavemasters.

She was close friends with Khadgar, Lothar, and Grandpa Wrynn, and she's half draenei. She has just as much if not more ties to the Alliance as she does to the Horde, so her old dialogue saying "the Horde has always been my home" made no sense. Furthermore in beta she used to brag about killing Llane and saying "maybe I should kill another king", which completely ignores how every depiction of her doing that has had it be a mind control command from Gul'dan and she was crying as she did it. She was not proud of it in the least, it broke her.

Note that I'm not saying I want her on Alliance either, just that her being on Horde is ridiculous.
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  #5883  
Old 06-25-2018, 11:02 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Hoo boy do we ever fuck up the Horde in Stormsong. I'll enjoy leveling through this I think.
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  #5884  
Old 06-25-2018, 11:27 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I took the time to write up an extensive review on the gameplay enjoyment of all Battle For Azeroth DPS specs when it comes to questing and leveling, regarding the current Beta build:

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...rall_feel_not/
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  #5885  
Old 06-25-2018, 11:46 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Hoo boy do we ever fuck up the Horde in Stormsong. I'll enjoy leveling through this I think.
In what way?
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #5886  
Old 06-26-2018, 12:16 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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In what way?
For the first time ever we get to destroy a Horde quest hub
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  #5887  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:48 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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You're still avoiding the question.

It seems that bashing on the writing direction is more important than defending your (flawed) logic.

I stand my point. Have you seen people in real life with behavior issues?
There is no flaw in my logic.

Let me elucidate you on one of the basic truths of writing-Characters have no Agency.

Anything they do or say is entirely at the behest of the Writers. They cannot protest against their makers like one of Daffy Duck's Skit where he picks up Chuck Jone's pen and starts drawing with a will of their own. They're naught but blots of ink and voice given some measure of iconography and logic patterns to resemble something of a simulacrum of a person.

The writer's Job is to make certain that these characters seem like actual people and not what they truley are-which is whatever the Writer damn welll pleases.

Good deisgn is Invisible, etc.

Unfortunately Blizaard is hackneyed and incompetent and so their inability to convince a long time reader that any of these characters resemble people and not just whatever suits their whim is appallingly naked. The Suspension of Disbelief is stretched to the point where it has snapped long ago. The Illusion is broken, and can never be recast.


That is why "There are no Characters anymore." Because much like how there wasn't a single Human Being in the movie Crash, there isn't a single believable person in World of Warcraft at it's current trajectory.



All of which, of course, has fuck all to do with my personal experience with people with Behavior issues.
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  #5888  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:29 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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There is no flaw in my logic.


All of which, of course, has fuck all to do with my personal experience with people with Behavior issues.

You're simply obtuse.

Let me tell you the story of IWillDominate, a professional League of Legends player.

In 2012 he was banned for toxic behavior and was put into Riot's toxicity reform program.


Afterwards, there was quite a movement in the community for the company to deal with toxic professional players, since not only were they affecting regular players' games, but also getting professional support on their performance, so that should be reviewed.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.co...-player-reform

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...rs-reform-them

Reforming toxic players became a huge deal.

A few years later, a reformed IWillDominate comes by and tells his story, of how he now is a renewed person.

If IWillDominate was one of your so-cherished characters, he would've stayed in his path of ever-ascendancy. But he didn't. As a human, like you and me, he's fickle.

So he ended up being toxic again. And again.

Right now, IWillDominate is the perfect metaphorical equivalent to your Garona. He backtracked to previous behaviors he once overcame with lots of external help and therapy.

And that's why I don't see the Garona we were discussing (since she's been updated since then) as a surrealistic character. Instead, I see her as a character that portrays verisimilitude, because people in real life have behavior issues more often than not, and only fantasy characters stay in their very "reformed, new way" forever onwards.

Which also makes me believe that you're quite detached from how people work in reality and too attached to works of fiction that don't portray verisimilitude.

Now don't get me wrong, in real life there are people who do stay true in their new path and keep forever improving, so that also can happen in fantasy and fiction.

Also, quality storytelling is quite different from a storytelling that portrays verisimilitude (many fantastical works of fiction, within the best known in the history of men for their quality of storytelling are very, very, very detached from reality and hard to believe).

But since we started this discussion debating the verisimilitude of Garona's, Sylvanas', and Voss' situation, not their quality of storytelling, I believe that the discussion for analyzing the quality of Blizzard's storytelling in BFA is another matter entirely.

But of course, I doubt you'll read all of this, and even if you do, you'll keep believing that characters who don't backtrack to old behaviors aren't similar to real-life cases and that everything we discussed has nothing to do with people with behavior issues.
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  #5889  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:41 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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You're simply obtuse.

Let me tell you the story of IWillDominate, a professional League of Legends player.

In 2012 he was banned for toxic behavior and was put into Riot's toxicity reform program.


Afterwards, there was quite a movement in the community for the company to deal with toxic professional players, since not only were they affecting regular players' games, but also getting professional support on their performance, so that should be reviewed.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.co...-player-reform

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...rs-reform-them

Reforming toxic players became a huge deal.

A few years later, a reformed IWillDominate comes by and tells his story, of how he now is a renewed person.

If IWillDominate was one of your so-cherished characters, he would've stayed in his path of ever-ascendancy. But he didn't. As a human, like you and me, he's fickle.

So he ended up being toxic again. And again.

Right now, IWillDominate is the perfect metaphorical equivalent to your Garona. He backtracked to previous behaviors he once overcame with lots of external help and therapy.

And that's why I don't see the Garona we were discussing (since she's been updated since then) as a surrealistic character. Instead, I see her as a character that portrays verisimilitude, because people in real life have behavior issues more often than not, and only fantasy characters stay in their very "reformed, new way" forever onwards.

Which also makes me believe that you're quite detached from how people work in reality and too attached to works of fiction that don't portray verisimilitude.

Now don't get me wrong, in real life there are people who do stay true in their new path and keep forever improving, so that also can happen in fantasy and fiction.

Also, quality storytelling is quite different from a storytelling that portrays verisimilitude (many fantastical works of fiction, within the best known in the history of men for their quality of storytelling are very, very, very detached from reality and hard to believe).

But since we started this discussion debating the verisimilitude of Garona's, Sylvanas', and Voss' situation, not their quality of storytelling, I believe that the discussion for analyzing the quality of Blizzard's storytelling in BFA is another matter entirely.

But of course, I doubt you'll read all of this, and even if you do, you'll keep believing that characters who don't backtrack to old behaviors aren't similar to real-life cases and that everything we discussed has nothing to do with people with behavior issues.
If you were talking about other characters, I'd agree. People often snap back to their flaws. It's very hard to overcome some weaknesses.

But, in Garona's very specific case, she didn't serve the Horde or murder Llane willingly. It was all done against her will, throught mind control, and it was trully traumatic. If anything, I'd see Garona as someone who wouldn't tolerate being used like that again, nor would she brag about killing Llane. After Cho'gall's death, I could even see her retiring to some far off place because she was too tired of all the killing and war she never liked in the first place.
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  #5890  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:13 AM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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You know, this reminds me of how at Blizzcon 2015 they mentioned that Alonsus Faol was brought back as an undead because when working on the order halls, they realized there weren't enough Horde priest characters and decided to make him one.
Do you have a source to this? A video or a transcript?
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  #5891  
Old 06-26-2018, 09:17 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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If you were talking about other characters, I'd agree. People often snap back to their flaws. It's very hard to overcome some weaknesses.

But, in Garona's very specific case, she didn't serve the Horde or murder Llane willingly. It was all done against her will, throught mind control, and it was trully traumatic. If anything, I'd see Garona as someone who wouldn't tolerate being used like that again, nor would she brag about killing Llane. After Cho'gall's death, I could even see her retiring to some far off place because she was too tired of all the killing and war she never liked in the first place.
At the same time, what Krainz is saying makes sense. I think Asterisk put up the most salient counterpoint, and what I found particularly persuasive about it was the contradiction evident in saying that she had always been Horde (as opposed to "I just joined it", which I don't believe her history should preclude). But trauma also does funny things to people - like the abusive father who is that way because as a child he was abused.

That being said, it's also not the players' responsibility to fill in explanations like that if Blizzard isn't hinting at that in some way. The recent backtracking leads me to say that the first pass of her characterization was a mistake and not a clever comment on the nature of how people can backslide and become the very monsters that screwed them up in the first place.
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  #5892  
Old 06-26-2018, 09:28 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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That being said, it's also not the players' responsibility to fill in explanations like that if Blizzard isn't hinting at that in some way. The recent backtracking leads me to say that the first pass of her characterization was a mistake and not a clever comment on the nature of how people can backslide and become the very monsters that screwed them up in the first place.
That is true.
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  #5893  
Old 06-26-2018, 09:33 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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There are zip limits on how far one will go to defend Blizzard Writing.
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  #5894  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:07 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Do you have a source to this? A video or a transcript?
It wasn't at a panel, there was a mini Q and A where some developers were just standing around near the voice actor's stage answering questions. I don't think anyone filmed it I'm afraid.


Artifact retirement questlines are up. Doing them gives you maximum ranks in all of your traits (including concordance) and increases the artifact level to the max, with the artifact level and concordance increasing beyond max each week until the pre patch. This should make the mage tower challenge significantly easier, which is now always available.

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  #5895  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:06 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Hey remember a few pages back when someone said that they wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard put Valeera on the Horde simply because she's a blood elf in spite of her backstory and character

Guess who's on the Horde gunship in the artifact retirement questline lmao
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  #5896  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:37 PM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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But of course, I doubt you'll read all of this, and even if you do, you'll keep believing that characters who don't backtrack to old behaviors aren't similar to real-life cases and that everything we discussed has nothing to do with people with behavior issues.
That was a very interesting account of someone going through Reformation and Relapse.


But also not really ever applicable to any character Blizzard has ever put out in this franchise or...ever.


So while it serves as a good example for whatever you were trying to argue, it had absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about. Which was that Blizzard is inept at character Consistency and it has reached it's zenith in the manifestation of blatant Parallel Universes appearing in Quest lines.

The writing department isn't just inept and clumsy it;s making active design decisions that are hare-brained and idiotic.
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  #5897  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:37 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Hey remember a few pages back when someone said that they wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard put Valeera on the Horde simply because she's a blood elf in spite of her backstory and character

Guess who's on the Horde gunship in the artifact retirement questline lmao
This doesn't make any sense. She never was with the Horde. And considering the circumstances of Varian's death, it's even more stupid.

As for Garona, it kinda sucks she isn't much around Khadgar in the game. He's pretty much the only friend she should have left. And yeah, her being with the Horde never made any sense.
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  #5898  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:55 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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This doesn't make any sense. She never was with the Horde. And considering the circumstances of Varian's death, it's even more stupid.

As for Garona, it kinda sucks she isn't much around Khadgar in the game. He's pretty much the only friend she should have left. And yeah, her being with the Horde never made any sense.
As of BtS she is still working for the Wrynns. It’s probably a mistake that we’ll never see again, or, well bear in mind she is a rogue. Headcanon is she’s a spy.
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  #5899  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:13 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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As of BtS she is still working for the Wrynns. It’s probably a mistake that we’ll never see again, or, well bear in mind she is a rogue. Headcanon is she’s a spy.
The Teldrassil quests do open with Anduin saying "his spies in Orgrimmar" found out the Horde was preparing to attack the night elves.
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  #5900  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:36 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I didn't realize how much I needed Wyrmbane 76 until now
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