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  #76  
Old 11-18-2018, 03:33 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
There is an inherent lesson from WC1 and WC3, and it is this: nigh-almighty beings should NOT attempt to meddle in the affairs of mortals. Because mortals are dangerous. You will lose control of them, and they will kill you. It's like a dumb little kid throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

Medivh in WC1. If the humans hadn't stormed his tower, the orcs would have.

The Legion in WC3. They engineered two of the factions that helped kill them.

Don't. Play. With. Mortals!
While absolutely true for Warcraft I (and I'd say Warcraft II for Gul'dan), I am not so sure about Warcraft III, specifically because of the Kaldorei and Medivh. This has long been my primary problem with Warcraft III's setting, and ultimately, with the Kaldorei. Even though I love the race both conceptually and aesthetically, the way they were rooted into the world and its history, coupled the way they unnecessarily deprived the Quel'thalas elves' of many the themes they had was not particularly prudent.
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  #77  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:16 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I think they just wanted dark elves in Warcraft and to also do the "faded civilization" done for earlier elves with them.
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  #78  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:50 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
While absolutely true for Warcraft I (and I'd say Warcraft II for Gul'dan), I am not so sure about Warcraft III, specifically because of the Kaldorei and Medivh. This has long been my primary problem with Warcraft III's setting, and ultimately, with the Kaldorei. Even though I love the race both conceptually and aesthetically, the way they were rooted into the world and its history, coupled the way they unnecessarily deprived the Quel'thalas elves' of many the themes they had was not particularly prudent.
For WCIII, I meant the roles that were played by the Horde (in killing Mannoroth and helping defeat Archimonde) and the Scourge (in assassinating Mal'Ganis and Tichondrius), both of which were engineered by the Legion to be their puppets.
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  #79  
Old 11-18-2018, 07:09 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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One could call the Night Elves mortals considering their backstory of creatures empowered by one big arcane well.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 11-18-2018 at 07:16 PM..
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  #80  
Old 11-19-2018, 05:25 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
There is an inherent lesson from WC1 and WC3, and it is this: nigh-almighty beings should NOT attempt to meddle in the affairs of mortals. Because mortals are dangerous. You will lose control of them, and they will kill you. It's like a dumb little kid throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

Medivh in WC1. If the humans hadn't stormed his tower, the orcs would have.

The Legion in WC3. They engineered two of the factions that helped kill them.

Don't. Play. With. Mortals!
Isn't that just a cheap borrowing from Greek legend storytelling structures?

Mortal heroes and demigods overthrowing deities
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  #81  
Old 11-19-2018, 06:13 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
These are already specific designs you use in your "reimagination". You can't use these to argue that "the world needs guardians, otherwise it does not make sense" based off of historical observation, as the demons, the Kaldorei, and so on do not have to be written the way you describe. And that was the gist of my objection, in a world following Warcraft II thematically as much as factually, they shouldn't be written this way, as a Warcraft II based setting should primarily be about clashes of nations, their socities, philosophies, not about powerful mystical figures dictating the course of the universe, that is Warcraft III and even more so, World of Warcraft.
You have a good point here. It is all arbitrary fictional rules anyway.

I do agree with the part about clashes of nations and beliefs. I disagree that having guardians involved necessarily invalidates that. Medivh is the callous manipulator, and my idea for the Lich King is to be a glorified civil servant.

But at this point I would be content with anything that tells an engaging story. So I look forward to seeing your rendition when it is finished.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
There is an inherent lesson from WC1 and WC3, and it is this: nigh-almighty beings should NOT attempt to meddle in the affairs of mortals. Because mortals are dangerous. You will lose control of them, and they will kill you. It's like a dumb little kid throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

Medivh in WC1. If the humans hadn't stormed his tower, the orcs would have.

The Legion in WC3. They engineered two of the factions that helped kill them.

Don't. Play. With. Mortals!
Even with the guardians of the pillars idea I am brainstorming, this is a point I agree with.

The guardians probably had their non-intervention rule for many reasons, such as because messing with mortals results in huge problems. Mortals were responsible for destroying planets, for invading worlds, for starting wars, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
I think they just wanted dark elves in Warcraft and to also do the "faded civilization" done for earlier elves with them.
I am so annoyed with the fading elves cliche. Tolkien did it as part of his romantic belief in a steadily declining world, but it makes no sense in other settings where this isn't the case. Especially not settings where the past was worse or more chaotic than the present, unless the elves are supposed to be amoral fairies.

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
One could call the Night Elves mortals considering their backstory of creatures empowered by one big arcane well.
Yep. Something I pointed out makes them into, for lack of a better term, proto-demons.

The Lich King isn't strictly mortal either. He's undead.

Speaking of which, Tolkien's elves were immortal. I'm not just talking "live forever unless slain by sword or disease," I mean their spirits were eternal and could be resurrected. No other race besides the gods and angels could do the same.

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Isn't that just a cheap borrowing from Greek legend storytelling structures?

Mortal heroes and demigods overthrowing deities
It varies. In Greek myth, the various kings of gods were overthrown by their own offspring. Uranus was overthrown by Cronus was overthrown by Zeus was overthrown by... Christianity?

Greek myth was interrupted because the people were converted to Christianity or something before they could tell stories about Zeus being overthrown. I have seen one author's interpretation of a continuation: Zeus is murdered by Hera for all his adultery, then she is executed by Athena, then Hercules is crowned the new king of the gods (for quick reference, his mortal half was previously killed to allow his apotheosis).
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  #82  
Old Yesterday, 07:40 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

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Whoops! Quick correction on my part. When I said Medivh planned to puppet the Horde to take control of Azeroth, I forgot this was the WCII retcon. In WCI lore, of course, it was still purely accidental.

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During the battle with his father, he inadvertently opened a gateway to the domain that they, and many other foul creatures, call home. The Orcs are disciples of chaos, however, and not even Medivh has the power to control them.
Same theme though. The orcs are very independent, very uncontrollable. An uncontainable horde, if you will.
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  #83  
Old Yesterday, 12:34 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Whoops! Quick correction on my part. When I said Medivh planned to puppet the Horde to take control of Azeroth, I forgot this was the WCII retcon. In WCI lore, of course, it was still purely accidental.



Same theme though. The orcs are very independent, very uncontrollable. An uncontainable horde, if you will.
A good catch. It's unfortunate that WC2 had to engage in retconning when it wasn't necessary. Does anyone have a list of the retcons between WC1 and WC2?

This could be reconciled by claiming that Medivh later chose to manipulate the Horde even if the initial rift was accidental. Aegwynn is the one who claims the orcs cannot be controlled, but Medivh is probably arrogant enough to believe he can.

While I am leery of making Medivh into just another pawn in a series of a pawns of pawns, I do think that the link to Draenor specifically could be explained by the planet being known to the guardians in some way such as instinctively connecting to a familiar name or whatever. For example, the guardians might have learned of Kil'jaeden or the eredar from Sargeras or his company, and Medivh's uncontrolled release of power instinctively sought out the eredar and connected to Draenor where they had settled.

Or we could just rewrite WC2 to better fit with WC1. For example:
  • the rift was accidental but Medivh later capitalized on it. It was never opened deliberately.
  • Kil'jaeden was never a student of Sargeras specifically, but he had heard of the species and told Gul'dan during his classes on the many demonic races he knew of.
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  #84  
Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Apart from the retcons created by merging the two campaign into a single narrative and making the player characters into lore characters (Doomhammer for the orc player character, Lothar for the human one), there are only two principal retcons, and both can be handwaved away pretty easily.

1) Gul'dan creating the necrolytes in Warcraft II. This one can be either handwaved as Gul'dan being an ego-maniac who revised history for his writings, or the ancient orcish religions being still death oriented (communing with the dead and channeling the cold energies of the underworld), yet not advanced enough as to raise dead until Gul'dan, or a combination of both.

2) The Medivh problem, which can be handwaved with the very original rift being accidental, Medivh only capitalizing on it, and Aegwyn correctly concluding that the orcs would prove too hard to control even for him.
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  #85  
Old Yesterday, 06:46 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

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Apart from the retcons created by merging the two campaign into a single narrative and making the player characters into lore characters (Doomhammer for the orc player character, Lothar for the human one)
I'll add that with this, specifically, the biggest change is the nature of how the Commander/Doomhammer became warchief. He originally outmaneuvers Blackhand and gains support from the Shadow Council. It's the Shadow Council that has Blackhand killed.

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The time has come for you to seize control of the Orcish hordes for yourself. Blackhand has become foolish in the deployment of his personal troops, and has left an opening that you can now exploit. A key outpost in the Black Morass is the core of Blackhand's supply lines - not only to his foremost battle groups, but to his castle at Black Rock Spire, as well. The complete destruction of this outpost will disrupt his power base long enough for you to secure his overthrow.
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The destruction of Blackhand's outpost has left him in a weak position. The Shadow Council, sensing your rise in power, orders the assassination of Blackhand and elevates you to the position of War Chief.
I'm not sure if the Shadow Council was connected to warlocks yet? All the manual says is that Garona was a member.

EDIT: Open for debate, but I think the WC1 orc ending treats the Shadow Council and the Warlocks as distinct factions. The Shadow Council is looking for new lands across the sea, while the Warlocks want to tinker with the Portal.

Quote:
What new conquests will await you in this place? The Shadow Council has begun to bring you information concerning the lands across the great sea that are as yet untouched by Orcish rule. The Warlocks also seek your permission to resume their experiments with the portal, their intent being the subjugation of other worlds.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; Yesterday at 06:56 PM..
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