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  #76  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:27 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
But are her claims even relevant to the subject at hand?

Or is she saying "Sylvanas sells, thus necessary evil" and doing an extra effort on not being clear at that?
We did get on a tangent, but it is almost impossible at this point to disentangle discussion on Sylvanas from the story direction overall. The Horde acts, the Alliance reacts, and Sylvanas is Warchief. We get a lot of overlap therefore on several larger concepts, such as black and white storytelling, the "size" and variation of the story, all kinds of things.

I wish it weren't so, but I didn't make her warchief.
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  #77  
Old 04-17-2018, 09:35 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Sylvanas has a couple points in her own favor:
1. She’s smarter than Garrosh. For all his atrocities against the Alliance, Garrosh would probably have had the rest of the Horde playing defense with him at the Siege of Orgrimmar had he not alienated them.. Sylvanas as of yet hasn’t turned on her allies. Provided that doesn’t change, she should be able to avoid another Darkspear Rebellion.
2. She has a destiny. Vol’jin didn’t put her on that throne for kicks. The Loa told him to do it. Since we’re getting a crap ton of Horde-friendly Troll content it stands to reason that we might just find out why.

Here’s a scenario that occurs to me: Sylvanas probably should have an enemy in Odyn. Her attempt at taking Eyir shouldn’t be forgotten. However, if you read Chronicle, Odyn is an Asshole. He continues in this state as well during Legion, albeit in a more subdued manner. Odyn is exactly the sort of asshole that would fit in with the Alliance. Probably would want to bring Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes in under his wing. Possibly alienating the already crippled Kalimdor side of the Alliance. Perhaps start. Forcibly converting his chosen races back into Titan-forged, eliminating some of their Free will. Sylvanas may be the best one to lead the charge against him.
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  #78  
Old 04-18-2018, 04:59 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
2. She has a destiny. Vol’jin didn’t put her on that throne for kicks. The Loa told him to do it. Since we’re getting a crap ton of Horde-friendly Troll content it stands to reason that we might just find out why.
Well, for all we know, the "Loa" that talked to him was N'zoth in disguise. There's certainly something at play here, but it's not necessarily something benevolent.
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  #79  
Old 04-18-2018, 11:08 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Well, for all we know, the "Loa" that talked to him was N'zoth in disguise. There's certainly something at play here, but it's not necessarily something benevolent.
I doubt it was N’Zoth, but it doesn’t have to be an Old God to be less than benevolent. Fact is the Loa are bloodthirsty savage gods who demanded bloody sacrifices. The point is she has a destiny or a purpose, and I don’t think Vol’jin is one to be duped into listening to a fake loa, nor do I believe their/his purpose was to hurt the Horde.
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  #80  
Old 04-21-2018, 05:19 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
And while WoW is pretty black and white the older games did have villain protagonists galore and had them win big too.
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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Let's review:

Orcs and Humans to Beyond the Dark Portal: The Old Horde conquers Stormwind in OaH but is beaten and ends up in internment camps with Gul'dan ending up demon feed while Doomhammer is captured in ToD. Ner'zhul's Horde ends up getting their planet blown up then Ner'zhul gets painfully turned into the Lich King in BtDP. All in all the Alliance comes out on top and in better shape than the Orcs with Allies.

Reign of Chaos to Frozen Throne: Arthas joins the Scourge and massacres his kingdom then proceeds to rampage around the East but this was done to set up the Burning Legion's return. The BL are beaten. Illidan and his posse try to kill the Lich King but they're villainous. Garithos gets killed by Varimathas but he was a villain. Arthas stops Illidan but at the time this was written he was supposed to have been not really Arthas anymore (see official statements that the Lich King post-TFT is a composite entity and not just Corrupted Arthas) so really only Ner'zhul wins here from the villains if anybody.

I see a lot of suitable comeuppances.
See, you're taking it with a look-back perspective. Take each game in a contemporary perspective instead.


O&H: The villain option has a noble Conan culture and can win big through barbarian values (e.g. betrayal).

ToD: It turns out you won big last game, and you can win big again.

BtDP: Your new villain option is a rival to those losers who lost last game (Ner'zhul vs. Doomhammer and Gul'dan). Now you can win big, bigger than any of the possible victories in previous games: you can attain Valhalla on earth with the promise of conquest and victories without end.

RoC: The villain option(s) has the chance to rise up, mastermind the end of their demonic oppressors, and...

FT: ...attain near-absolute power over new, possibly unstoppable zombie era. This is also the one true canon ending to the RTS games.
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  #81  
Old 04-21-2018, 12:48 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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As I said, really only Ner'zhul won from the villains if anybody. That's iffy since past official statements and RPG books that Metzen himself worked on made it debateable whether the Lich King post-TFT was a composite entity or just Ner'zhul riding Arthas as his own meat mobile. Outside of Legacy of the Damned's King Arthas and that Dwarf Chapter (which got retconned) you fight other villains like the Legion Leftovers, Garithos' army, and the Illidari in the TFT Undead Campaign.

And the RTS games before WC3 let both factions strike serious damage uncurable damage on their enemies and achieve super victory without any garbage about parity for the players. The Alliance can destroy the Orc's capital, throw them in internment camps, and do other feats worthy of fist-bumping (and be in the canon too). This is not the case for the far less threatening with a far more disloyal leadership Alliance.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 04-21-2018 at 12:52 PM..
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  #82  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:17 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Sylvanas dies fighting the old gods, maybe saving some Horde characters, Genn or some Alliance characters kill the Valkyr going to bring her back. She sacrifices herself and the Alliance stops her from coming back, thus she dies for the Horde and stays dead because of the Alliance!

Everyone wins (except Sylvanas).

Then again, with all the build up around Saurfang, I half expect him to stroll into Grommash Hold and declare Mak'gora, with Anduin, Genn, the Horde leadership and the player characters there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Sylvanas has a couple points in her own favor:
1. She’s smarter than Garrosh. For all his atrocities against the Alliance, Garrosh would probably have had the rest of the Horde playing defense with him at the Siege of Orgrimmar had he not alienated them.. Sylvanas as of yet hasn’t turned on her allies. Provided that doesn’t change, she should be able to avoid another Darkspear Rebellion.
2. She has a destiny. Vol’jin didn’t put her on that throne for kicks. The Loa told him to do it. Since we’re getting a crap ton of Horde-friendly Troll content it stands to reason that we might just find out why.
Perhaps the Loa and Voljin saw that the only way to excise the cancerous tumour in the Horde was to drag it out of the shadows and into a place where it can be removed without destroying the Horde in the long run.

Quote:
Here’s a scenario that occurs to me: Sylvanas probably should have an enemy in Odyn. Her attempt at taking Eyir shouldn’t be forgotten. However, if you read Chronicle, Odyn is an Asshole. He continues in this state as well during Legion, albeit in a more subdued manner. Odyn is exactly the sort of asshole that would fit in with the Alliance. Probably would want to bring Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes in under his wing. Possibly alienating the already crippled Kalimdor side of the Alliance. Perhaps start. Forcibly converting his chosen races back into Titan-forged, eliminating some of their Free will. Sylvanas may be the best one to lead the charge against him.
Why would the Alliance let that happen? The Alliance is not the Horde, we see the Night Elves fighting alongside Humans and the Eastern Kingdoms Alliance to take out the Undercity even though they would have every good reason to not be there and be fighting the Horde back home.

Odyn would make a good ally, but I doubt he could just waltz in and take over. This isnt the Horde after all!
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"

Last edited by Crazyterran; 04-22-2018 at 12:25 AM..
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  #83  
Old 04-22-2018, 02:44 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
See, you're taking it with a look-back perspective. Take each game in a contemporary perspective instead.


O&H: The villain option has a noble Conan culture and can win big through barbarian values (e.g. betrayal).

ToD: It turns out you won big last game, and you can win big again.

BtDP: Your new villain option is a rival to those losers who lost last game (Ner'zhul vs. Doomhammer and Gul'dan). Now you can win big, bigger than any of the possible victories in previous games: you can attain Valhalla on earth with the promise of conquest and victories without end.

RoC: The villain option(s) has the chance to rise up, mastermind the end of their demonic oppressors, and...

FT: ...attain near-absolute power over new, possibly unstoppable zombie era. This is also the one true canon ending to the RTS games.
Pretty much this. In their own games the villains won handily but then in future installments Blizzard would retcon the scope of the villain's victory (WC3) or just say it never happened (WC2).
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  #84  
Old 04-22-2018, 03:39 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Having the Humans win as an option with that option being what's used for the games afer is not retconning. And the primary antagonist force in WC3 (with its proxies) is defeated. Twice including proxies. Daelin Proudmoore also was defeated.

And there's the whole "Alliance/Humans in WC1-WC2 are actually reliably threatening and effective against their enemies unlike in WoW when against the Horde" difference.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 04-22-2018 at 03:41 PM..
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  #85  
Old 04-23-2018, 07:50 PM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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Hyper-Pragmatism cuts off an entire arm because the tip of a single finger has a bit of gang green.

Sylvanas is a liability to the Horde.
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  #86  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:56 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Bullroarer View Post
Hyper-Pragmatism cuts off an entire arm because the tip of a single finger has a bit of gang green.

Sylvanas is a liability to the Horde.
Especially given that her personal agenda basically amounts to empowering herself and the Forsaken so that they won't need to rely on the Horde, and we've seen the ugly precedent for what Sylvanas and the Forsaken do with allies they deem no longer necessary.

Sylvanas is a liability to the Horde because as soon as she gets what she really wants, the Horde will become the unnecessary liability to her.

Last edited by ARM3481; 04-23-2018 at 09:02 PM..
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