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Old 04-24-2018, 06:05 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Default Imagine if the developers were serious about the Alliance being "as bad as the Horde"

A long time ago, one of the previews for WCIII talked about how the developers would shift scales and make the Alliance almost as foul as the Old Horde. Shades of popped up in the game proper with connected novels and WoW (Blackmoore, Garithos, maybe Arthas if you stretch it), but they didn't go all the way, while still botching it.

Now, how could the Alliance from WC3 be shown as "almost" down there with the Old Horde while keeping in line with their characterization up until then?
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2018, 06:47 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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The Alliance in Warcraft III was victims. Victims of the Scourge, and victims of their complacency and disunity. It’s hard to make villains out of victims. Maybe had they left Garithos alive.

When you get to WoW it’s slightly easier.
Vanilla: Make the Scarlet Crusade an active faction within the Alliance.
Burning Crusade: The Draenei are Broken, and anti-orc terrorists who have no regard for collateral damage, taking innocent lives in their attacks.
For starters.
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Old 04-24-2018, 07:49 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
The Alliance in Warcraft III was victims. Victims of the Scourge, and victims of their complacency and disunity. It’s hard to make villains out of victims. Maybe had they left Garithos alive.

When you get to WoW it’s slightly easier.
Vanilla: Make the Scarlet Crusade an active faction within the Alliance.
Burning Crusade: The Draenei are Broken, and anti-orc terrorists who have no regard for collateral damage, taking innocent lives in their attacks.
For starters.
No.

They should have left Terenas alive.

Just have a troop of priests rescuing Terenas after Arthas' moment so that
isn't ruined.
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:18 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
The Alliance in Warcraft III was victims. Victims of the Scourge, and victims of their complacency and disunity. It’s hard to make villains out of victims. Maybe had they left Garithos alive.

When you get to WoW it’s slightly easier.
Vanilla: Make the Scarlet Crusade an active faction within the Alliance.
Burning Crusade: The Draenei are Broken, and anti-orc terrorists who have no regard for collateral damage, taking innocent lives in their attacks.
For starters.
No.

They should have left Terenas alive.

Just have a troop of priests rescuing Terenas after Arthas' moment so that glorious Shakespeare-esque scene isn't ruined.

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Old 04-25-2018, 08:36 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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They could have started from the end of the Second War. They could have had the streets of Stormwind paved with orc bones. Would have saved money on both cobblestones and internment camps.

That would accomplish about 33% of the goal of making the Alliance "as bad as the Horde".

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Vanilla: Make the Scarlet Crusade an active faction within the Alliance.
This is a really good idea. It would also create intra-factional conflict. I'd love to imagine the Scarlets' reaction to Dwarves and Elves. And Draenei. And Worgen.

Last edited by Jon Targaryen; 04-25-2018 at 09:21 AM..
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:07 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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If you're going that far to edit WC3's events then how about Undead Arthas really does become king of Lordaeron with it becoming a kingdom of Humans AND Undead?
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:57 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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During WoD we were discussing the potential of a "Fel Alliance". I don't remember the details, but it did involve Death knight King Arthas of Lordaeron. And Fel Illidan.
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:51 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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And Fel Illidan.
So like, Illidan.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:50 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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So like, Illidan.
I meant Medivh.
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:58 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
During WoD we were discussing the potential of a "Fel Alliance". I don't remember the details, but it did involve Death knight King Arthas of Lordaeron. And Fel Illidan.
They almost had this in Frozen Throne, but they discarded it. The Blood Mage should've been an Alliance hero.

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Many of the stoic high elves, reeling from the loss of their ancient homeland, Quel'Thalas, have given in to their hatred and despair and embraced the dark side of their magical natures. Calling themselves 'Blood Elves' - these cold hearted refugees seek to expand their remaining magical powers at any cost - even if it means courting the infernal powers of the Burning Legion! Though still loyal to the Alliance, the Blood Elves' passions will lead them not only to the highest pinnacles of power, but to the darkest depths of madness.
Frozen Throne's "Alliance Campaign" should have really been an Alliance campaign. Kael'thas' forces should have represented the majority faction of the human-elven-dwarven(-gnomish) Alliance. Garithos should've been a small rogue group.

At the end of the story, the Alliance would've thrown its lot with the Naga and Illidari and helped form an evil faction with albeit sympathetic motivations. It would keep its central themes of civilization and arrogance - demonic energy might have corrupted the childlike orcs, but WE can handle it.
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Old 04-26-2018, 06:07 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Might work.

Though we might have gotten the Horde Night Elves to provide contrast.
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:33 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
They almost had this in Frozen Throne, but they discarded it. The Blood Mage should've been an Alliance hero.

Frozen Throne's "Alliance Campaign" should have really been an Alliance campaign. Kael'thas' forces should have represented the majority faction of the human-elven-dwarven(-gnomish) Alliance. Garithos should've been a small rogue group.
That explains a lot actually. I always low-key wondered why it was calle the "Alliance Campaign".

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At the end of the story, the Alliance would've thrown its lot with the Naga and Illidari and helped form an evil faction with albeit sympathetic motivations. It would keep its central themes of civilization and arrogance - demonic energy might have corrupted the childlike orcs, but WE can handle it.
I wonder why Blizzard didn't go with that if they wanted both factions to be morally equivalent. Embracing evil out of desperation is extremely realistic.

On another point, the whole "desperation" in general and specifically "Alliance desperation" plotlines from ROC and TFT seemed to be abandoned between TFT and WoW. Was there such a dire need to evacuate the Eastern Kingdoms? The impression I got from TFT was that the entire EK was a plagued, undead infested wasteland, and that Theramore was the last bastion and remnant of humanity. Which of course was completely overturned in WoW where Khaz Modan and the Azeroth subcontinent were revealed as relatively untouched and remained going concerns.
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:13 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Stormwind was shown in pre-release info for WoW so I doubt it was supposed to be destroyed during WC3. I can see the EK north of the Thandol Span way more damaged.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:32 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
On another point, the whole "desperation" in general and specifically "Alliance desperation" plotlines from ROC and TFT seemed to be abandoned between TFT and WoW. Was there such a dire need to evacuate the Eastern Kingdoms? The impression I got from TFT was that the entire EK was a plagued, undead infested wasteland, and that Theramore was the last bastion and remnant of humanity. Which of course was completely overturned in WoW where Khaz Modan and the Azeroth subcontinent were revealed as relatively untouched and remained going concerns.
It was. Any other interpretation doesn't make much sense but Blizzard lowkey rectonned that. I think that was a bad choice. They should have made a bigger and more diverse Kalimdor and then had southern and northern Eastern Kingdoms as expansion material.

I once envisioned such a scenario and among other things I had northern EK mostly belong to the undead, both Scourge and Forsaken alike, due to the consequences of TFT. There are however demon and living stragglers trying to survive too.
But in southern EK the situation is reversed with a demon army reigning supreme and the undead have little presence here. Stormwind still stands because as the army of the dead and demons closed black dragons Onyxia and Nefarian along with their brood and Blackrock orcs arrived and offered to join forces and beat back the demons or fall alone. The choice being between annihilation and eating their pride they picked the latter. And though the black dragons presented themselves as equal partners over time their grip on Stormwind grew and the kingdom is a twisted version of itself now. Ironforge may hold out or it might have fallen to the Cult of the Damned and is a Scourge raid to break up the monotony of fighting demons.

The players would first arrive in southern EK and liberate it (if there is no faction system in this revamped WoW then ironically Stormwind could be a joint orc-human town and the city of the expansion) before doing the same in northern EK the next expansion. Throughout both expansions you are heavily outnumbered but you win by playing off the various villain factions against each other... damn, I need to get back on this project it really gets the creative juices going.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:37 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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It was. Any other interpretation doesn't make much sense but Blizzard lowkey rectonned that. I think that was a bad choice. They should have made a bigger and more diverse Kalimdor and then had southern and northern Eastern Kingdoms as expansion material.
The thing is, World of Warcraft entered development way before Warcraft III came out, and as such, the fault lies with Warcraft III not remaining consistent with the former plans. We know for a fact that from the very beginning, Blizzard planned Stormwind (and originally even Dalaran) be capitals for the humans, and we also know that originally, Kalimdor were to be much smaller.

We have this preview from 2001, ie almost a year before Warcraft III's release, showing Westfall, Elwynn, Ironforge and talking about the kingdom of Azeroth, and we also have several conceptual maps from 1999 detailing their original plans.

https://imgur.com/a/0h3sF#0

https://i.imgur.com/REHqaKD.png

http://zaphoyd.com/wowcemaps/web-Images/16.jpg

In other words, Kalimdor as the main continent and the East scourged could have never happened, because Blizzard never planned it that way, even before Warcraft III's release, and Warcraft III screwed up a big time by suggesting that as a possibility.
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:16 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The thing is, World of Warcraft entered development way before Warcraft III came out, and as such, the fault lies with Warcraft III not remaining consistent with the former plans. We know for a fact that from the very beginning, Blizzard planned Stormwind (and originally even Dalaran) be capitals for the humans, and we also know that originally, Kalimdor were to be much smaller.

WoW entered development before WC3 came out because WC3 also entered development before its own release. They both entered development at about the same time.

The "former plans" were shared plans between both games that started development in tandem, not something unique to WoW that WC3 came along later and ignored.

Last edited by ARM3481; 04-27-2018 at 12:19 AM..
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:35 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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WoW entered development before WC3 came out because WC3 also entered development before its own release. They both entered development at about the same time.

The "former plans" were shared plans between both games that started development in tandem, not something unique to WoW that WC3 came along later and ignored.
Anybody knowing at least a bit about their development is well aware of that. But I am not sure what's the point you are trying to make here. The fact stands the final story of Warcraft III contradicted what they had laid out for World of Warcraft from the beginning (there's a reason why I specifically said not remaining consistent with the former plans instead of not ever being consistent with them). That they were developed in tandem only makes it worse, because we know the former (Alpha and pre-Alpha) story plans for Warcraft III were substantially different from the final product and more reflective of their World of Warcraft plans (focus on Azeroth and other human nations in the Alliance campaign, for example).
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Last edited by Marthen; 04-27-2018 at 12:40 AM..
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:03 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
The thing is, World of Warcraft entered development way before Warcraft III came out, and as such, the fault lies with Warcraft III not remaining consistent with the former plans. We know for a fact that from the very beginning, Blizzard planned Stormwind (and originally even Dalaran) be capitals for the humans, and we also know that originally, Kalimdor were to be much smaller.

We have this preview from 2001, ie almost a year before Warcraft III's release, showing Westfall, Elwynn, Ironforge and talking about the kingdom of Azeroth, and we also have several conceptual maps from 1999 detailing their original plans.

https://imgur.com/a/0h3sF#0

https://i.imgur.com/REHqaKD.png

http://zaphoyd.com/wowcemaps/web-Images/16.jpg

In other words, Kalimdor as the main continent and the East scourged could have never happened, because Blizzard never planned it that way, even before Warcraft III's release, and Warcraft III screwed up a big time by suggesting that as a possibility.
I am aware of that, I am just going by the story and trying to keep it consistent. I am creating an alternate history of sorts.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:42 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I am aware of that, I am just going by the story and trying to keep it consistent. I am creating an alternate history of sorts.
Sure, I was mostly referring to the "it was a bad decision" part. Looking at how it all went down, such a decision could have never been made (simply because when Blizzard made the decision to change Warcraft III's storyline, World of Warcraft was so far in development that it was impossible for it to reflect the change properly). The real bad decision was to make such a change to the original concept that it couldn't have been possibly reflected and thus made for such a discrepancy. If Warcraft III had been developed by itself, it would have been fine, but it wasn't.
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:49 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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You know, now I'm curious - What do we actually know about the "original plans" for WCIII's storyline?
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:54 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You know, now I'm curious - What do we actually know about the "original plans" for WCIII's storyline?
Check the Warcraft III Alpha thread. I posted a great deal in there.

One thing worth mentioning as it pertains to this thread, the Alliance's fall was to be driven far more internally, not externally, and the humans were to be a bit more nastier. Humanity having tauren slaves in the East, wars between human nations over the spoils of war and territory, the Alliance as a whole disbanding the Silver Hand, not just Arthas by himself, the trolls of Lordaeron almost driven to extinction after the Second War, and so on.
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Last edited by Marthen; 04-27-2018 at 05:59 AM..
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:15 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I wouldn't go that far about the fall being more external. Undead Arthas was there early on
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