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  #26  
Old 07-27-2013, 11:31 AM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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And so we see the shallow nature of the faction-war and the factions in general.
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  #27  
Old 07-27-2013, 11:47 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Eliphas View Post
And so we see the shallow nature of the faction-war and the factions in general.
Which is why, of course, the war was a terrible idea to begin with, from beginning to end. It won't end in a good way, but that's more or less inevitable. Hopefully future stories can do better.
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  #28  
Old 07-27-2013, 12:37 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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You crazy people put more thought into this than Blizzard does.
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  #29  
Old 07-27-2013, 12:40 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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You crazy people put more thought into this than Blizzard does.
We are blessedly free of the burdens of game design, demographic concerns, or profit.
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  #30  
Old 07-27-2013, 01:33 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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You crazy people put more thought into this than Blizzard does.
Oui.
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  #31  
Old 07-27-2013, 01:42 PM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Eliphas View Post
And so we see the shallow nature of the faction-war and the factions in general.
Yes, because fighting pitiful demons that we will crush without difficulty is so much better than killing those who really endanger the factions, i.e, the other faction...
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  #32  
Old 07-27-2013, 01:44 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
Yes, because fighting pitiful demons that we will crush without difficulty is so much better than killing those who really endanger the factions, i.e, the other faction...
The game would have been better if the faction war never happened. All it brings is bitching and Horde favoritism - or, if the Alliance won back any of the billion things the Horde took from it, Alliance favoritism.

That said, at this point even the thought of fighting the Pantheon, all the Old Gods, and Sargeras in the same encounter is pitiful.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #33  
Old 07-27-2013, 02:51 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
You crazy people put more thought into this than Blizzard does.
Duh. That's kind of the point of this forum.
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  #34  
Old 07-27-2013, 02:53 PM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
We are blessedly free of the burdens of game design, demographic concerns, or profit.
More like we are blessed with way too much time to think about such things .
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  #35  
Old 07-27-2013, 05:07 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
Yes, because fighting pitiful demons that we will crush without difficulty is so much better than killing those who really endanger the factions, i.e, the other faction...
But, is there any real danger or just being told there is a sense of danger?

Have you seen anything gone really bad for the Horde and Alliance up until the Rebellion? Any signs of war-decay and attrition on both sides, growing numbers of homeless and wounded soldiers from battle who can no longer serve in Orc or Human society. The Tauren society beginning to show the decay of it's Shamanism as the sign of the war beginning to bear down on their people, breaking their spirit as they pursue more unorthodox methods.

Or the Defias, growing in strength and power as the Alliance is wasting it's resources on a futile war - many growing to the call of Justice against the Wyrnns as many fight and die for a cause that ended when he Second War ended. Or even, why are they fighting? Can anyone of the rank-and-file even remember?

The Blood Elves, more and more, are showing more to be a Three-Council Junta who has no intent on leaving. The political ramifications and benefits giving Lore'themar all the more reason to stay as, permanently until the Dynasty returns or until the Council can "name a new Monarch who is in merit and bloodline secure for the Throne", "Regent Lord". As time goes on the Junta becomes smaller as they struggle to make an Autocracy with One-Dominant Ruler.

The Orcs turn into a literal war-machine as everything is put towards winning the war, every male, female, and child drilled and trained for the days they are called to join the Orcish Raiding parties. Those who can not fight are sent to more menial tasks, supposedly a great honor though those who are sent there are broken and battered souls - seeing as if they failed their Warchief and Horde. The toll of this constant and never ending tragedy puts te Warchief into a near manic obsession into winning the war and achieving the Honor and Glory his father did. Defeating the Great Enemy and Oppressor of the Orcs and the Horde.


Bla bla bla - that is how a faction war should be done. Show me actual decay of fuckin society, the end of the normalcy and getting more and more grit. The Warriors returning, battered and dying, broken and lost - the civil population being forced to suffer ramification of each battle, win or lose.
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  #36  
Old 07-27-2013, 05:14 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Bla bla bla - that is how a faction war should be done. Show me actual decay of fuckin society, the end of the normalcy and getting more and more grit. The Warriors returning, battered and dying, broken and lost - the civil population being forced to suffer ramification of each battle, win or lose.
War is officially glorious in this setting, so I don't know if that would fit with the devs' vision.
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  #37  
Old 07-27-2013, 08:06 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
War is officially glorious in this setting, so I don't know if that would fit with the devs' vision.
Well, faction-war is officially glorious. When the Legion, or the Scourge, or the Twilight's Hammer, or the mogu, or anyone else is inflicting nightmarish death on the battlefield, it's dreadful and bad and has to be stopped.

When the factions do it, that same stuff's totally Metal and epic and BLOOD AND THUNDER!!!!!

Except in Pandaria, where we get schizophrenic "this war is bad and has to stop, and you're totally a hero who's wise and knows that's the case, but here are some quests where you gladly head out and help to keep the war going anyway, and some insinuations that your opinion about the war as a champion of Azeroth matters even though it completely doesn't and the narrative would have you burning down orphanages and hospitals for your faction even though that would be out-of-character for someone with your record of defending innocents and doing the right thing."

Seriously, the player factions can go screw themselves. I'm tired of everyone increasingly being a tabard first and a character second.
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  #38  
Old 07-27-2013, 08:09 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Well, faction-war is officially glorious. When the Legion, or the Scourge, or the Twilight's Hammer, or the mogu, or anyone else is inflicting nightmarish death on the battlefield, it's dreadful and bad and has to be stopped.

When the factions do it, that same stuff's totally Metal and epic and BLOOD AND THUNDER!!!!!

Except in Pandaria, where we get schizophrenic "this war is bad and has to stop, and you're totally a hero who's wise and knows that's the case, but here are some quests where you gladly head out and help to keep the war going anyway, and some insinuations that your opinion about the war as a champion of Azeroth matters even though it completely doesn't and the narrative would have you burning down orphanages and hospitals for your faction even though that would be out-of-character for someone with your record of defending innocents and doing the right thing."

Seriously, the player factions can go screw themselves. I'm tired of everyone increasingly being a tabard first and a character second.
Believe me, I'd love playing a more involved RPG here (especially if Bioware-esque).
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  #39  
Old 07-27-2013, 08:35 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I'm getting really sick of people shitting on the idea of faction war in general when if it was executed properly it could've been awesome. Just because Blizzard has attached itself by the hip to the status quo, thereby making any faction war ultimately pointless does not mean that faction war is innately bad or doomed to fail.

And the status quo is exactly the problem. How the fuck did Blizzard think that it was going to write a realistic, compelling faction war where nobody gets any real victory and nothing changes? THAT is what makes the faction war pointless, not the very idea of a faction war or even factions in general.

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Well, faction-war is officially glorious. When the Legion, or the Scourge, or the Twilight's Hammer, or the mogu, or anyone else is inflicting nightmarish death on the battlefield, it's dreadful and bad and has to be stopped.

When the factions do it, that same stuff's totally Metal and epic and BLOOD AND THUNDER!!!!!
This is the exact opposite of what is being sold in-universe. When it's a war against an NPC faction it's awesome and necessary and righteous, but when it's a faction war it's pointless and petty and terrible. Sometimes I wish that I could sucker-punch across the internet anyone who calls the faction war "petty" for the umpteenth time when one of the factions is rampaging across the countryside murdering everyone in their path for no reason.
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  #40  
Old 07-28-2013, 12:35 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Faction war in Warcraft 2 was AWESOME, because it really drew attention to things like moving fronts and war effort. Can anyone tell me where did GARROSH secure large amounts of oil for his Pandaria invasion fleet?

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This is the exact opposite of what is being sold in-universe. When it's a war against an NPC faction it's awesome and necessary and righteous, but when it's a faction war it's pointless and petty and terrible.
Actually, both of you would be right at specific cases.
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  #41  
Old 07-28-2013, 02:23 AM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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Thrall just had a fleet somewhere.

He only stopped working on it when he met Aggra. Because Agrra
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  #42  
Old 07-28-2013, 07:02 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Can anyone tell me where did GARROSH secure large amounts of oil for his Pandaria invasion fleet?
I will say that I'm impressed at how much "oil lore" Blizzard kept in World of Warcraft, considering nobody would have blamed them if they just pretended like oil was never a factor in this quasi-medieval setting.

"Why do you need oil for sailing/rowing ships?" was an annoying argument that the Command and Conquer fans would always bring up. But we defended that oil, gosh darnit, because of faction pride!
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  #43  
Old 07-28-2013, 03:26 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Seriously, the player factions can go screw themselves. I'm tired of everyone increasingly being a tabard first and a character second.
Amen.
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  #44  
Old 07-29-2013, 05:18 AM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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New factions!

We take the Horde & Alliance and fuse it together into Azeroth's defense force.

The opposing faction are demonic versions of the other races.


We keep the original warcraft good vs evil theme, faction bias is abolished, and no more plot tumors trying to perpetuate a conflict that should have ended ages ago.

Have your cake, eat it too.
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  #45  
Old 07-29-2013, 05:21 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Quaero View Post
New factions!

We take the Horde & Alliance and fuse it together into Azeroth's defense force.

The opposing faction are demonic versions of the other races.


We keep the original warcraft good vs evil theme, faction bias is abolished, and no more plot tumors trying to perpetuate a conflict that should have ended ages ago.

Have your cake, eat it too.
But won't that mean that evil can't ever be defeated? Then we sort of have the same problem.
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  #46  
Old 07-29-2013, 06:06 AM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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Originally Posted by Quaero View Post
New factions!

We take the Horde & Alliance and fuse it together into Azeroth's defense force.

The opposing faction are demonic versions of the other races.


We keep the original warcraft good vs evil theme, faction bias is abolished, and no more plot tumors trying to perpetuate a conflict that should have ended ages ago.

Have your cake, eat it too.
You just made a new cancer.
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  #47  
Old 07-29-2013, 07:16 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
But won't that mean that evil can't ever be defeated? Then we sort of have the same problem.
Exactly.

This is the problem with a faction-war game. You can't actually allow one side to win over the other. Hell, right now just having one side "quasi-win" a few times in Cataclysm has started a toxic faction-ism blowout that we have still not recovered from.
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  #48  
Old 07-29-2013, 11:14 AM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Eliphas View Post
You just made a new cancer.
I'm tired enough of the current one to consider it a change of scenery.
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2013, 11:37 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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In this analogy, are Blizzard's placating tweets chemo?
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  #50  
Old 07-29-2013, 11:39 AM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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In this analogy, are Blizzard's placating tweets chemo?
More like placebo at this rate.
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