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  #51  
Old 06-12-2015, 04:49 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Not MU canon!
Actually, all of Lords of War is MU canon.
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  #52  
Old 06-12-2015, 04:51 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
Then he promptly slaughters them. kek
Sure, if you ignore the text and talk that says even when they were on demon blood, with Cenarius not participating, they were getting pushed hard.

But that doesn't count because ORC SMASH GROM ELVES SucK (I mean, they do suck now days, but)
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  #53  
Old 06-12-2015, 04:53 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Check the WCIII deconstruction thread because it's relevant to the discussion.
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  #54  
Old 06-12-2015, 04:56 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Night Elf Icon (War3) What a foul beast.

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  #55  
Old 06-12-2015, 05:11 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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And Grom shows us what happens when orcs drink demon blood; more or less the exact same thing without it, as WoD shows.
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  #56  
Old 06-12-2015, 06:25 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Sure, if you ignore the text and talk that says even when they were on demon blood, with Cenarius not participating, they were getting pushed hard.

But that doesn't count because ORC SMASH GROM ELVES SucK (I mean, they do suck now days, but)
Of course he was being pushed hard. It was a single Orc clan (greatly diminished from its time in hiding since the Dark Portal closed as well as the trip from Lordaeron to Kalimdor) up against like 5 elven armies. Numbers eventually win out. Not only that, the elves had the home field advantage.
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  #57  
Old 06-12-2015, 06:31 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Grom does call them perfect warriors, and I doubt he'd apply that term to people who are winning only because of their numbers and home field advantage. He's referring to individual night elves, after seeing how they fight with his own eyes.
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  #58  
Old 06-12-2015, 06:32 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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I played the mission hours ago and he didn't say that. What triggers the dialogue?
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  #59  
Old 06-12-2015, 06:34 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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He says that after you kill the first group of archers that came to defend the wisps, IIRC.
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  #60  
Old 06-12-2015, 06:36 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
Of course he was being pushed hard. It was a single Orc clan (greatly diminished from its time in hiding since the Dark Portal closed as well as the trip from Lordaeron to Kalimdor) up against like 5 elven armies. Numbers eventually win out. Not only that, the elves had the home field advantage.
Which is why the Orcs won



Quote:
The orcs did not receive a warm welcome on Kalimdor. The night elves dispatched a number of scouts posthaste, and the scouts returned with frightening stories of the orcs' past atrocities during the First and Second Wars. In the meantime, the orcs chopped down a great many trees in Kalimdor, clearly intending to establish a settlement. Cenarius became certain that the orcs had returned to their warlike ways. He led a group of night elves and treants against a large group of the orcish intruders.
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  #61  
Old 06-12-2015, 06:37 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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I took the "perfect warriors" quote from here:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Spirits_of_Ashenvale

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
He says that after you kill the first group of archers that came to defend the wisps, IIRC.
I think that's the "they look like elves but are far too tall and far too savage" line. It seems like you need to do something more special

Last edited by Siegrune; 06-12-2015 at 06:45 PM..
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  #62  
Old 06-12-2015, 06:45 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
He says that after you kill the first group of archers that came to defend the wisps, IIRC.
I guess it's just random.
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  #63  
Old 06-12-2015, 07:10 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Which is why the Orcs won
Orcs didn't win because of numbers, buddy. They won because they killed the fuck out of their night elf enemies (who outnumbered them) and their demigod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
Grom does call them perfect warriors, and I doubt he'd apply that term to people who are winning only because of their numbers and home field advantage. He's referring to individual night elves, after seeing how they fight with his own eyes.
Think about it: the night elves are agile, they are experts at stealth (they can even turn invisible), and they prefer to fight from a distance. Compared to orcs, who prefer to fight in melee combat... the night elves very well would have come across as "perfect." A hard counter to Orcish strengths. Those elves still get chopped down the moment your grunts get within melee range, though.

Grom may have described them as "perfect warriors" when they had the numbers, had taken him by surprise, and had engaged him from a distance. But by the end... well... I think we all know how much he thought of them...

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Last edited by Frostwolf; 06-12-2015 at 07:14 PM..
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  #64  
Old 06-12-2015, 07:27 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
Think about it: the night elves are agile, they are experts at stealth (they can even turn invisible), and they prefer to fight from a distance. Compared to orcs, who prefer to fight in melee combat... the night elves very well would have come across as "perfect." A hard counter to Orcish strengths. Those elves still get chopped down the moment your grunts get within melee range, though.

Grom may have described them as "perfect warriors" when they had the numbers, had taken him by surprise, and had engaged him from a distance. But by the end... well... I think we all know how much he thought of them...
Well it's not like he's not going to kill people he thinks highly of as warriors. "A worthy opponent" and all that. I don't think Grom would have called them perfect warriors if he weren't impressed by their martial prowess.


By the way, I've finally found the line in-game:


33:25

It seems like you have to attack the teal base to trigger it.

Last edited by Siegrune; 06-12-2015 at 07:29 PM..
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  #65  
Old 06-12-2015, 07:40 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Sorry frosty, I just linked official Canon that supports the night elves being outnumbered.

The fel blood, and outnumbering the night elves are why the orcs won.

Unless you can present something to counter (5 armies doesn't cut it. How many per army?), saying otherwise is just fanon. Hell, even an insinuation

Give me something, man. Cuz, I've not seen anything that even hints at grom being outnumbered, and the text indicates he had more.

I'll take any evidence, printed or stated I won't take "Well, from and the warsong were weak from hiding" because Blizzard doesn't give a shit about shit like that.

Give me a shred of a source
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  #66  
Old 06-12-2015, 07:59 PM
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Grom's quote stood the test of time about as well as Jaina's insistence that the Horde had changed.
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  #67  
Old 06-12-2015, 08:46 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Night Elf lore died when Illidan died. The best thing about the Night Elf campaign was the banter between the three big characters. And without a third character to shake them up, Malfurion and Tyrande are both just boring together.

I won't even debate whether Illidan is a good guy or not, or whether all his actions were justified because I don't much care for that. He was one of the most interesting characters the Night Elves had.

Quote:
The problem is....lack of Illidan.

Really, it is.

In Warcraft III, Tyrande, Malfurion and Illidan formed a kind of thematic threesome.

Malfurion was the wise one who revered the natural order.

Tyrande was the rash one who revered a higher power.

And Illidan was the one revered himself.

That egotistical theme contrasted well with the other two. And there was so much more built upon it: llidan was defined by his ego, and it's an aspect of character's that can sometimes be really appealing. Where Tyrande devoted herself to Elune and Malfurion devoted himself to nature, Illidan just set himself on fire and yelled "I'M FREAKING AWESOME! FOLLOW ME EVERYBODY!".....and then he went too far.

When Illidan was taken out, the Night Elves lost something important. At first Blizzard tried to compensate by making Blood Elves an entire race that is very similar to Illidan's way of thinking....but they're Horde.

Then Blizzard tried making the Worgen, who have a backstory that parallels Illidan's in a Druidic way(Malfurion even comments on this in the Worgen comic series), but Blizzard is afraid to put Worgen into the story now....and still, Worgen are another race. Not Night Elves.

Blizzard took a step in the right direction by putting mages back into the race. But they need to bring things full circle and allows Warlocks as well. And more than that, they have to make the story behind Night Elf Warlocks somehow be related to Ilidan.

But the only way that's going to really happen is if something happens to Malfurion/Tyrande to make them allow it. Like humbling them, or Illidan coming back, or one of them dying. I personally would love to see how the story would unfold if Tyrande died and Illidan came back just to see his brother couldn't save her.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...0940?page=4#77

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 06-12-2015 at 08:49 PM..
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  #68  
Old 06-12-2015, 09:04 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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ew

----

anyway, homegirl Pained could fight on equal grounds with that Garrosh lackey, the blackrock one in ToW. And she was the one using the giant sword.

Last edited by GenyaArikado; 06-12-2015 at 09:30 PM..
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  #69  
Old 06-12-2015, 09:40 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Sorry frosty, I just linked official Canon that supports the night elves being outnumbered.

The fel blood, and outnumbering the night elves are why the orcs won.

Unless you can present something to counter (5 armies doesn't cut it. How many per army?), saying otherwise is just fanon. Hell, even an insinuation

Give me something, man. Cuz, I've not seen anything that even hints at grom being outnumbered, and the text indicates he had more.

I'll take any evidence, printed or stated I won't take "Well, from and the warsong were weak from hiding" because Blizzard doesn't give a shit about shit like that.

Give me a shred of a source
Except your quote (which you have yet to provide a source for) says nothing about the night elves being outnumbered.

Quote:
Cenarius became certain that the orcs had returned to their warlike ways. He led a group of night elves and treants against a large group of the orcish intruders.
Where does this at all state that the orcs outnumbered the elves? Cenarius himself lead three Sentinel armies against the "orcish intruders." That is true. It's the very mission in which Grom kills Cenarius. In that mission, the night elves outnumbered the orcs by a large margin.

The Warsong Clan was the only Horde force operating in Ashenvale. Are you insinuating that the Warsong Clan was larger than the combined might of the night elven military? The Warsong Clan, which lived in a fucking system of caves in Hillsbrad prior to the Horde's exodus to Kalimdor?

Your source does not say what you claim it says. Plus, it's probably from some magazine or outdated manual. It makes no sense, within the context of the universe. You are resting your entire argument on a bullshit "source" which doesn't even say what you're arguing it says.
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  #70  
Old 06-12-2015, 09:47 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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It's from the enclyopedia that lore confirmed Canon.

And it makes a point to differentiate between force and large force.


None of MoP and all of WoD and much of cata doesn't make sense in universe either.

And I'm saying Grom didn't fight the combined might. He a few batallions and cenarius.

Hence why Tyrande and the other elves didn't know it was orcs that killed Cenarius in the opening cutscene for the first NE mission.

Or is your Orc hard on so great that you think outnumbered and against a demi God the warsong stood against the entire NE army?
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Last edited by Ruinshin; 06-12-2015 at 09:51 PM..
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  #71  
Old 06-12-2015, 10:09 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
It's from the enclyopedia that lore confirmed Canon.
Lol. The UVG has already been retconned a few times since its release. I wouldn't put too much stock in whatever your source is, buddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
And it makes a point to differentiate between force and large force.
That does not mean it said the orcs outnumbered the elves. In the actual mission in which Cenarius leads that force, his army outnumbered the orcs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
And I'm saying Grom didn't fight the combined might. He a few batallions and cenarius.
Battalions? Really? No. I don't think so. Brigades, at least. If we're going to use actual military terms, that is. The point is that the Warsong Clan was heavily outnumbered. The very mission in which Cenarius dies reinforces that fact, with grunts complaining about being outnumbered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Or is your Orc hard on so great that you think outnumbered and against a demi God the warsong stood against the entire NE army?
The Warsong Clan was heavily outnumbered. If they had outnumbered the night elves, Grom would not have been desperate enough to drink the blood. That's kind of the whole point. Grom and his clan are fighting against impossible odds, so they drink the blood. Then they kill the elves.

Is your night elf boner so great that you really think the Warsong Clan outnumbered the night elves? The Warsong did not even have children during the events of LotC, due to lack of food. That's not the sign of a massive force. They were small enough to hide in caves and evade human detection for years. There is no possible way they were large enough to outnumber the night elves. Your source does not say what you think it says.

The Sentinels suffered such large casualties during the Third War that they had to lift gender restrictions. We know for a fact that the night elf forces were vast. It is impossible for the Warsong to have outnumbered them.
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  #72  
Old 06-12-2015, 10:30 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Hey, think this might be best to take in PM's instead of messing up what I guess is supposed to be a Night Elf appreciation thread?

Anyway, I still like Night Elves to some small degree. Male Night Elves look very cool after the model update and I like how they look as Monks and Rogues. (Been half-tempted to change my Rogue to a NE but haven't done it yet.)
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  #73  
Old 06-12-2015, 10:40 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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I still like Maiev. Pretty much the most rational and intelligent character in Warcraft III. Post-game has been less kind to her, but who didn't get mauled by WoW and shit novels? Still, I think it's really unfortunate that people don't appreciate her, and are content to write her off as being merely a cog in Illidan's story.

As for Grom and the night elves, the only reason he praised them was to stroke his e-peen when he killed them. They're perfect warriors and I'm killing them in droves, so what does that make me!? Eh? EH!?
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  #74  
Old 06-13-2015, 01:10 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Just to counter some of the doom and gloom.





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  #75  
Old 06-13-2015, 01:53 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Night Elf Icon (War3)

You know, I'd completely forgotten about Glaive Toss. I suppose that Exotic Munitions could be used for Searing Arrows, so we're getting closer. Now, they just need a glyph that turns the crows into spectral owls or stars. (Starfall, get it? )

As mentioned before, Death Knights should get glyphs that turn their Ghoul into an Avatar of Vengeance and their Army of the Dead into Spirits of Vengeance.

Night elves should also get paladins.
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