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  #26  
Old 03-22-2018, 05:47 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Illidan was hardly better than Sylvanas in WC3 to TBC. If anything, he's an example of where Sylvanas is going (that is, a sneering baby kicking villain turned into a dark hero out of fanservice).

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I hope not, but what I hope for and what probably will happen are two different things. Again, I humbly propose a stingray as an answer to that.
She has almost all the trappings. She just needs her Jim Raynor.

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How does this make them Mary Sues?
Maybe I should have just called then poorly written.

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I missed the part where despite victory in battle, the Gilneans lose so many that it costs them the war. "Pyyhic victory" is a clearly defined thing, and we really need to get out of the habit of calling anything short of a complete victory "Pyyhric".
Gilneas came out of the invasion in worse shape than the Forsaken were. And the Alliance won little from the Horde in the end anyway (no reparations, no surrendered territory, just empty threats).

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Ok, but she is still thwarted. That's my point. They don't just get everything they want, they don't just win all of the time, and the Alliance does get victories over them.
In proportion to their atrocities? And how much damage has the Alliance really done to the Forsaken that impedes their ability to drop plague nukes?

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No I don't.
Come on, I'm sure you know that Blizzard is all about that status quo (see Varian's failed attempt to get the Blood Elves back as Alliance and Dalaran with its eternal neutrality) and parity. And really, I'd call seizing Ashenvale the better deal since it's not a plagued dump. The Alliance hasn't even moved to seize Quel'thalas (which I'd call the shining gem of the Eastern Horde). At best, the Alliance gets stuck with a dump that'll come with some drawback to it.

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Edit: One word of caution I'd throw at the end of that though: the Forsaken have always had a shade of darkness, scheming, and ruthlessness about them that players have enjoyed. You can't just take that away, so whatever solution you have must make substantial provision for them. Otherwise? They will rightly claim that their favorite race has been neutered - and as someone who knows how that feels, it is something I have to bring up as an outcome to avoid.
I didn't talk about removing darkness. They can be dark and scheming, just in a way that's more suitable for a playable faction largely drawn from Humanity that can't be wiped out. We already have the Ebon Blade to look towards.

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  #27  
Old 03-22-2018, 06:01 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Sylvanas is largely beloved by a good chunk of the fanbase.
Only by Forsaken fanbois. Sylvanas ruins the Horde with her insanity and petty evil schemes. She's little more than a sexy Garrosh Hellscream.
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  #28  
Old 03-22-2018, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Only by Forsaken fanbois. Sylvanas ruins the Horde with her insanity and petty evil schemes. She's little more than a sexy Garrosh Hellscream.
There are people on this very forum who will tell you that Garrosh did nothing wrong.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #29  
Old 03-22-2018, 07:33 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Then again, it's also said Hitler did nothing wrong. And going from 4chan the ones who say such overlap.

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  #30  
Old 03-22-2018, 09:32 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Only by Forsaken fanbois. Sylvanas ruins the Horde with her insanity and petty evil schemes. She's little more than a sexy Garrosh Hellscream.
As a conqueror-dictator she's on par with Blackhand and Doomhammer.
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  #31  
Old 03-23-2018, 12:18 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Well... time to reply to stuff.

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Maybe I should have just called then poorly written.
That works.

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In proportion to their atrocities? And how much damage has the Alliance really done to the Forsaken that impedes their ability to drop plague nukes?
Their atrocities do not matter to me. What matters to me is how their victories are balanced against their defeats in such a way that it makes the Forsaken player and the Alliance player feel a sense of enjoyment out of the plot. The Forsaken wins some and it loses some. The forsaken player can feel competent without being gods. That's not always communicated well to the Alliance player (for further reading, see Cata), but it's fairly balanced and I can appreciate that.

As for your question about whether the Alliance has harmed the forsaken to the point that it impedes their ability to drop plague nukes - the sense of consistency and setup, as well as the lingering ability to maintain suspension of disbelief is shot so much to hell at this point that I no longer feel comfortable making predictions about relative strengths and abilities. You HAVE to look to the writers and their biases. There's little internal consistency because this bunch doesn't care for it. So to that question? No, Sylvanas can and will drop plague when the writers want her to, and that would be just as true if she was commanding a global empire or if she was limited to a scrappy band of mercenary teenagers and the Sloop John B.

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Come on, I'm sure you know that Blizzard is all about that status quo (see Varian's failed attempt to get the Blood Elves back as Alliance and Dalaran with its eternal neutrality) and parity. And really, I'd call seizing Ashenvale the better deal since it's not a plagued dump. The Alliance hasn't even moved to seize Quel'thalas (which I'd call the shining gem of the Eastern Horde). At best, the Alliance gets stuck with a dump that'll come with some drawback to it.
There are two problems with this.

First, you can't hold up both "status quo" in the context that the Forsaken retake the Undercity AND the homogenous continents model. They directly contradict each other.

Second, and I point this out with some frustration, we do not know if the throwaway parity move ends with what I'd regard as the constructive death of an entire playable race (which removing the Night Elves entirely from Kalimdor is nothing short of in my opinion), or with the Night Elves holding their territories in Kalimdor. Before you endorse either view, give the linked post below a look. (Sorry for just posting it, but I don't like to restate earlier-stated positions)

http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/show...1&postcount=61

Given that level of uncertainty, can I endorse a view that I know what Blizzard is going to do with the Undercity after its fall? No. I certainly can't also tell you that I agree that we can confirm that the Alliance is "trading" Ashenvale for some yet-unnamed Forsaken zone. (No, it isn't Tirisfal. We already traded Teldrassil for Tirisfal, and there's no evidence that the Alliance breaks out any further from there.)

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I didn't talk about removing darkness. They can be dark and scheming, just in a way that's more suitable for a playable faction largely drawn from Humanity that can't be wiped out. We already have the Ebon Blade to look towards.
Just so we're on the same page of course. You know how much of a critic I am of this idea that, once you have established role choices, that an MMO developer should favor some choices over others. If they wanted to do that, they should have written a single player RPG with a set protagonist. WoW has never been that, and should never be.
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  #32  
Old 03-23-2018, 02:12 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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As a conqueror-dictator she's on par with Blackhand and Doomhammer.
Blackhand, yes. Doomhammer, no. Sylvanas is an honorless dirtbag who only cares about herself, first and foremost.

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There are people on this very forum who will tell you that Garrosh did nothing wrong.
Well, they're wrong. Garrosh was scum who ruined the Horde that Thrall built. The Horde that was about honor and compassion, like a family. And now Sylvanas is ruining it with her blatant warmongering and WMDs.
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  #33  
Old 03-23-2018, 02:17 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Blackhand, yes. Doomhammer, no. Sylvanas is an honorless dirtbag who only cares about herself, first and foremost.
That's what we know, with meta knowledge. The public figure of Sylvanas cares about her people and manages to get them to yell "For the Horde!" throughout her appearances as Warchief.

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Given that level of uncertainty, can I endorse a view that I know what Blizzard is going to do with the Undercity after its fall? No. I certainly can't also tell you that I agree that we can confirm that the Alliance is "trading" Ashenvale for some yet-unnamed Forsaken zone. (No, it isn't Tirisfal. We already traded Teldrassil for Tirisfal, and there's no evidence that the Alliance breaks out any further from there.)
Silverpine, obviously.
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  #34  
Old 03-23-2018, 06:49 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Silverpine, obviously.
Have you seen any evidence that it's trading hands?
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  #35  
Old 03-23-2018, 09:53 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Thrall definitely can become Warchief again, they could easily have Sylvanas assassinate his family and try to pin it on the Alliance or to stop him from suing for peace but her Deathstalkers botch it, and then have him start a rebellion over it, and reset the Horde. And, yes, Blizzard is absolutely that ignorant to redo Garrosh's story, especially if they want to give Alliance players more fistpump moments. They even had her commit an atrocity, just like Garrosh, to escalate a war that was already going on, combined with a lot of dislike for her among the Horde leadership.

They also don't "have" to keep the faction war going. It should end, permanently, in this expansion. Otherwise there is no point to this expansion if the entire point is to "settle" it.
While that is cheesy and sappy imo, it can work. But do you consider how crappy it will be to go through a Garrosh 2.0 situation as a Horde fan? Not only are you to at first play a clueless dupe or a mediocre villain but then you are to become a rebel and wreck your own faction... again. I can get that you just want this over once and for all and will wade through a river of crap to get there but this is far from an ideal solution.

And I think Thrall fucked up way to much to deserve to lead the Horde. And now that we are apparently back in black with Sylvanas in charge we are set to have a Garrosh 2.0 clusterfuck. I am an old guard Horde fan by now, hell I don't even know much of the lore now, but I would be super pissed if the Garrosh storyline were to repeat just with Sylvanas (so probably worse).

I can go into detail about what the Horde should be and who could lead it, etc, etc... but honestly that can be summed up in two broad categories.

1. Have a Horde more like Thrall's Horde. How that works with Sylvanas in charge (or how to remove her from power without a major catastrophe) is harder to say. Maybe she is still the snake we know and love/hate but she pretends to be nice and actually leads the Horde competently with the rationale that a strong Horde = strong meatshield. Or she has some cheesy redemption, but I prefer option A, it lets the majority of Horde people do what they want (act honorably) while the snake in the grass Sylvanas adds some spice and intrigue to the faction.

2. We are the villains and we like it. I mean maybe most Horde players (the small % who care about the lore) didn't sign up to be bad guys but what they especially did not sign up for is to be incompetent bad guys who lose wars and fight miserable civil wars. If the Horde is to be the bastards faction under Sylvanas then let them be magnificent bastards. Full of flare, dark humor and most importantly victories. Warcraft is the game that finished two of its installments with a bad guy victory, why not keep up with that legacy?

Whatever happens I dearly hope we don't get a rehash of Garrosh. Again I am kind of disconnected from the fandom for a while now but if I was still playing/caring I'd go ballistic over that. Even with this distance in time I am sure I am not the only one who would react this way to a repeat of that travesty. And sadly knowing Blizzard repeating the same mistake is entirely on the table so who knows.

Give us something new and give us something good... or beware. That goes for both factions.
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  #36  
Old 03-23-2018, 12:18 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Have you seen any evidence that it's trading hands?
With Gilneas restored and Lordaeron retaken, it would make no sense to have Silverpine still on the hands of the Horde.
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  #37  
Old 03-23-2018, 12:29 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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With Gilneas restored and Lordaeron retaken, it would make no sense to have Silverpine still on the hands of the Horde.
Gilneas has been in Alliance hands since the end of the Forsaken Cata campaign. As for what makes sense or not, you and I can speculate on what makes sense or doesn't, but that a) would not create evidence, and b) can't reasonably be expected to correlate with what Blizzard's writers will decide.
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  #38  
Old 03-23-2018, 12:33 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
While that is cheesy and sappy imo, it can work. But do you consider how crappy it will be to go through a Garrosh 2.0 situation as a Horde fan? Not only are you to at first play a clueless dupe or a mediocre villain but then you are to become a rebel and wreck your own faction... again. I can get that you just want this over once and for all and will wade through a river of crap to get there but this is far from an ideal solution.
Oh, it will be crappy to go through that shit again. But I see absolutely no other options, as Blizzard has written themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. They can't keep her alive and leading the Horder after her atrocities, especially just after they threw out another genocidal and warmongering tyrant.

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And I think Thrall fucked up way to much to deserve to lead the Horde. And now that we are apparently back in black with Sylvanas in charge we are set to have a Garrosh 2.0 clusterfuck. I am an old guard Horde fan by now, hell I don't even know much of the lore now, but I would be super pissed if the Garrosh storyline were to repeat just with Sylvanas (so probably worse).
I disagree. Thrall made mistakes, and was humbled by them. He is also the only one capable of being Warchief, as I doubt many would accept Lor'themar as Warchief, Baine is a pussy, Trolls have no leader, and Saurfang and Eitrigg are already one foot in the grave. It would also be good to rehabilitate his character, and have him become the badass he always should have been before Kosak and Metzen fucked it all up and made him some whiny vagrant. Killing off Aggra, of whom is a worthless scrappy and satellite love interest, along with his kids, would get him some needed fire in wanting to kill Sylvanas and make him relevant again. Sylvanas could even kill them for his "behind the scenes manipulations" such as with the Mag'har, due to her being paranoid. It would also make sense, at least from my fan crack theory, that they are bringing both Thrall and Jaina back, at the same time in the same expansion, to return both of the characters to who they used to be before Garrosh fucked everything up, and this will be the completion of that cycle.

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1. Have a Horde more like Thrall's Horde. How that works with Sylvanas in charge (or how to remove her from power without a major catastrophe) is harder to say. Maybe she is still the snake we know and love/hate but she pretends to be nice and actually leads the Horde competently with the rationale that a strong Horde = strong meatshield. Or she has some cheesy redemption, but I prefer option A, it lets the majority of Horde people do what they want (act honorably) while the snake in the grass Sylvanas adds some spice and intrigue to the faction.
I can't see this as possible. Sylvanas' crimes are far too great, and if she is left alive, she will just drag the Horde through more villainous horseshit while Alliance fans whine incessantly about how she is immune to any and all punishment, especially after Garrosh was killed off for pulling the same stupid shit.

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2. We are the villains and we like it. I mean maybe most Horde players (the small % who care about the lore) didn't sign up to be bad guys but what they especially did not sign up for is to be incompetent bad guys who lose wars and fight miserable civil wars. If the Horde is to be the bastards faction under Sylvanas then let them be magnificent bastards. Full of flare, dark humor and most importantly victories. Warcraft is the game that finished two of its installments with a bad guy victory, why not keep up with that legacy?
They largely can't do this, because it is an MMO now, rather than an RTS. While it would be refreshing to have the villains win, I don't want the Horde to become villains to win. If villains are going to win, I would rather it be a third party group like some Old God minions or the Void or something.

I also think that Blizzard has been far too blunt in hinting about where Sylvanas is going. They've said that Sylvanas will suffer a "reckoning", like here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=0GLxejJ-yYQ

I believe the current war is that "something" that we will have to "deal with". They've been building this up for years, as with Garrosh with the little hints during Wrath and Cata.

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Whatever happens I dearly hope we don't get a rehash of Garrosh. Again I am kind of disconnected from the fandom for a while now but if I was still playing/caring I'd go ballistic over that. Even with this distance in time I am sure I am not the only one who would react this way to a repeat of that travesty. And sadly knowing Blizzard repeating the same mistake is entirely on the table so who knows.
I did go "ballistic" over it. I immediately saw where the Burning of Teldrassil was headed, and at first I was pissed. After a while, though, I thought about how it might finally cleanse the Horde of the impure and unfit. The evil and stupid will be purged, and the honorable will thrive! THEY'LL MAKE THE HORDE GREAT AGAIN!
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  #39  
Old 03-23-2018, 12:41 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Oh, it will be crappy to go through that shit again. But I see absolutely no other options, as Blizzard has written themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. They can't keep her alive and leading the Horder after her atrocities, especially just after they threw out another genocidal and warmongering tyrant.
Garrosh was overthrown because he went apeshit on trolls and tauren, kicking them out of Orgrimmar.

Sylvanas is lovely benevolent to the races of the Horde. Inner politics wise, she's in a way better situation.
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Old 03-23-2018, 01:27 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Three thoughts:

1) I really admire the faith of those who believe blizzard will "finally" "settle" the Faction War with this xpac. Smae thing should've happened in MoP, and one expansion later (because WoD either doesn't exist or is merely fallout of MoP and setup for Legion) here we are again. Faction war (not faction conflict, faction war, with full mobilization) seems to be the soul of this franchise in Blizz's eyes.

2) Jaina going back to her pre-MoP ways, after being hit by the material and moral equivalent of an atomic bomb and finally, finally, finally, after almost a decade and a half, confronting the fact that she abandoned her father to die in the hands of the Horde would be pathetic beyond description. That's her character now. While she shouldn't be always itching to drown Orgrimmar and slaughter even the elderly and the children among the Orcs, she should always retain her edge when dealing with them. There's simply no realistic or acceptable way for her to become that naive pacifist again.

3) Sylvanas attempted enslavement of Eiyr is indeed too promptly overlooked. No matter how you slice it, she did try to rob a sentient, even divine being of her free will and reduce her to a piece of property to be used for her egotistical purposes. That's just unapologetically EVIL and should be addressed. Even if they don't want her to be Da Villain™, the fact should not be glossed over, but maybe rewrote as a move out of desperation (reaching, but possible) and punished accordingly.
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Old 03-23-2018, 02:39 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Three thoughts:

1) I really admire the faith of those who believe blizzard will "finally" "settle" the Faction War with this xpac. Smae thing should've happened in MoP, and one expansion later (because WoD either doesn't exist or is merely fallout of MoP and setup for Legion) here we are again. Faction war (not faction conflict, faction war, with full mobilization) seems to be the soul of this franchise in Blizz's eyes.
Well, I'm fucking sick of the Horde constantly being written to be the villains just to give the Alliance "fistpump moments", especially when it constantly results in shitty "victories" for the Alliance while the Horde gets ripped apart, leading to further douchitude from the Horde because the Alliance didn't get exactly the "win" they wanted. I want the Horde to be legitimate, completely morally justified, and unambiguous heroes, much like they were in Vanilla. You can still do that with some shades of grey, but they have gotten rid of those and replaced them with "edginess".

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2) Jaina going back to her pre-MoP ways, after being hit by the material and moral equivalent of an atomic bomb and finally, finally, finally, after almost a decade and a half, confronting the fact that she abandoned her father to die in the hands of the Horde would be pathetic beyond description.
No, that wouldn't be "pathetic", it would prove that Jaina was stronger than her racist monster of a father. Daelin was a genocidal wack job, and Jaina was entirely in the right letting him die to save innocent people, her father or not.

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That's her character now. While she shouldn't be always itching to drown Orgrimmar and slaughter even the elderly and the children among the Orcs, she should always retain her edge when dealing with them. There's simply no realistic or acceptable way for her to become that naive pacifist again.
But that's exactly what Jaina always will be, as long as she hates the Horde. Bigot Jaina has proven, time and again, that she's just Garrosh in a skirt, and is itching to butcher women and children. All it would take would be a simple misunderstanding, like say Varian dying because of a forced retreat that she stupidly labels a "betrayal" because she's a crazed hatemonger looking for an excuse, to flip out and butcher thousands for fun. Every character in Warcraft that has followed that same path of racist hate mongering and blind rage, has ended up in the same place: dead. Arthas did it, Daelin did it, Garrosh did it, Garithos did it, Sylvanas has been getting there slowly by steadily, and now Jaina's going to end up there.

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3) Sylvanas attempted enslavement of Eiyr is indeed too promptly overlooked. No matter how you slice it, she did try to rob a sentient, even divine being of her free will and reduce her to a piece of property to be used for her egotistical purposes. That's just unapologetically EVIL and should be addressed. Even if they don't want her to be Da Villain™, the fact should not be glossed over, but maybe rewrote as a move out of desperation (reaching, but possible) and punished accordingly.
She should have been killed after the Wrathgate. I always found it suspicious that she didn't "know" that the RFA and Varimathras were plotting behind her back.
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  #42  
Old 03-23-2018, 02:43 PM
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Sylvanas is better than Garrosh because she isn't a screaming retard fantasizing over racial supremacy while changing her personality every 5 minutes from honorable warrior to baby eater. She also conquered Kalimdor while keeping the Horde united. Garrosh is a piece of shit ''''''character''''' who should be buried and forgotten by everyone.
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Old 03-23-2018, 02:56 PM
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Well, I'm fucking sick of the Horde constantly being written to be the villains just to give the Alliance "fistpump moments"
Yeah, except, they're not about giving Alliance fistpumping moments. Like, at all. Ask any Alliance fan how they feel about the Faction war storyline since Cata or so and you will see. I'd argue that the entire thing is more about giving part of the Horde fanbase their Death Metal Wild Merciless Barbarian™ power fantasy than anything else, and then finding a scapegoat for their troubles later.

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I want the Horde to be legitimate, completely morally justified, and unambiguous heroes, much like they were in Vanilla. You can still do that with some shades of grey, but they have gotten rid of those and replaced them with "edginess".
Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think they are ever giving you that. The Horde theme is not "unambiguous heroes". Never has been and, from what I can tell about Blizzard's lore development, they never will be. Their entire aesthetic and lore is about being edgy and Savage™ and hardcore. If you want "unambiguous hero", try being Alliance (and then, later, tell me how does it feel to see that apparently, to be an unambiguous hero, you have to be ineffectual and reactive all the damn time)

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No, that wouldn't be "pathetic", it would prove that Jaina was stronger than her racist monster of a father. Daelin was a genocidal wack job, and Jaina was entirely in the right letting him die to save innocent people, her father or not.
Yes, it would be pathetic, precisely for posts like these. Almost everyone I see that want "old Jaina" back is a Horde fan looking for a compliant orc apologist.

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But that's exactly what Jaina always will be, as long as she hates the Horde. Bigot Jaina has proven, time and again, that she's just Garrosh in a skirt, and is itching to butcher women and children.
Wrong. That's like saying that Varian can be either the angry Lo'Gosh angrily baring his angry teeth at the Horde or a complete pacifist that never takes up his sword. Varian's development over the years have showed that it's perfectly possible to do balance. Jaina doesn't need to be a genocidal maniac to be wary of giving the Horde and specifically the Orcs any opportunity to give in to their worst instincts. Blizzard apparently hasn't quite gotten there yet, as that cinematic of Jaina doing an Onyxia impersonation in SoO shows, but they can do it.

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All it would take would be a simple misunderstanding, like say Varian dying because of a forced retreat that she stupidly labels a "betrayal" because she's a crazed hatemonger looking for an excuse, to flip out and butcher thousands for fun.
Yeah, no. Just... No.
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:01 PM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Gilneas has been in Alliance hands since the end of the Forsaken Cata campaign.
Maybe initially (as hinted with the presence and story of the Blackhowl in the end of the Cataclysm), but it was later stated (in the UVGs) to be completely abandoned and almost completely plagued, with small areas being healthy (as per a tweet from Kosak). Following the Siege of Orgrimmar, Varian said that he wants "to investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands so they can rebuild."
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:13 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The UVG are the kind of material that should be completely disregarded.

If I recall correctly, Gilneas has been restored as of MoP.
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:13 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Yeah, except, they're not about giving Alliance fistpumping moments. Like, at all. Ask any Alliance fan how they feel about the Faction war storyline since Cata or so and you will see. I'd argue that the entire thing is more about giving part of the Horde fanbase their Death Metal Wild Merciless Barbarian™ power fantasy than anything else, and then finding a scapegoat for their troubles later.
You mean like how they whine incessantly that their victories are never enough, and are never ever satisfied? Also, the Horde having a "Death Metal Wild Merciless Barbarian" power fantasy doesn't equate to the entire faction being written as evil monsters who need to be killed for Alliance "victories".

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Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think they are ever giving you that. The Horde theme is not "unambiguous heroes". Never has been and, from what I can tell about Blizzard's lore development, they never will be. Their entire aesthetic and lore is about being edgy and Savage™ and hardcore. If you want "unambiguous hero", try being Alliance (and then, later, tell me how does it feel to see that apparently, to be an unambiguous hero, you have to be ineffectual and reactive all the damn time)
Wrong. The Horde was rewritten after Warcraft III to be heroes. A bit rough and "savage", but "noble savages" who were out to survive in a world that hated and feared them. The Horde was then ruined in Cata-present by Kosak and others, and turned into a pathetic racist and honorless shell of what it originally was to pander to Alliance crybabies and "put the WAR back in WARcraft" PvP crowd.

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Yes, it would be pathetic, precisely for posts like these. Almost everyone I see that want "old Jaina" back is a Horde fan looking for a compliant orc apologist.
And everyone I see liking "new Jaina" just wants a racist hatemonger against the Horde (which was completely redundant because they already had that with Genn/Tyrande/Varian and didn't need to ruin Jaina for that end), they want their own Garrosh. Jaina was a tolerant, kind, and strong character who stood by her morals. Now, she's just a simpering racist monster who needs to be put down before she butchers thousands for laughs at the slightest provocation. Of course, if she does, Blizzard will write her as being completely justified in it, as the Horde "had it coming", like they have done with every faction war storyline for the past 3 expansions.

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Wrong. That's like saying that Varian can be either the angry Lo'Gosh angrily baring his angry teeth at the Horde or a complete pacifist that never takes up his sword. Varian's development over the years have showed that it's perfectly possible to do balance. Jaina doesn't need to be a genocidal maniac to be wary of giving the Horde and specifically the Orcs any opportunity to give in to their worst instincts. Blizzard apparently hasn't quite gotten there yet, as that cinematic of Jaina doing an Onyxia impersonation in SoO shows, but they can do it.
Jaina was ruined entirely to prop up the "High King" and his wretched spawn. He's not exactly a good basis for development.

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Yeah, no. Just... No.
Every single instance involving Jaina recently shows that as a "yes". She's just looking for any excuse to butcher the "mongrels" for something Garrosh did.
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  #47  
Old 03-23-2018, 03:42 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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It's indeed lovely how Garrosh is somehow Jamie Madrox from the X-Men - An army unto himself. It's never "the Horde under Garrosh", it's always "Garrosh" alone, as if most of the Horde didn't follow him willingly and enthusiastically even after the bombing of Theramore.

Eh, I'm not going to lose hours on this.
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  #48  
Old 03-23-2018, 03:44 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Mordecay View Post
Maybe initially (as hinted with the presence and story of the Blackhowl in the end of the Cataclysm), but it was later stated (in the UVGs) to be completely abandoned and almost completely plagued, with small areas being healthy (as per a tweet from Kosak). Following the Siege of Orgrimmar, Varian said that he wants "to investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands so they can rebuild."
None of that contradicts what I said. The overall point here though is that Gilneas is not a recent victory for the Alliance.

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You mean like how they whine incessantly that their victories are never enough, and are never ever satisfied? Also, the Horde having a "Death Metal Wild Merciless Barbarian" power fantasy doesn't equate to the entire faction being written as evil monsters who need to be killed for Alliance "victories".
Broken fanbases do not just happen. They are the result of years of missteps, and the Alliance is no exception. You cannot, for years, bury victories in the "text" of the work while allowing the aesthetics and framing to scream "you suck!", and expect players not to react to that framing. By and large, people don't play video games to feel incompetent, and Cataclysm gave the Alliance those feelings in spades.

But also no, the reaction of the Alliance fanbase was not the reason for Blizzard's decision, after consulting a universe of possibilities for how to right the ship and make both factions feel pride in their factions, to make Garrosh evil. That was all them.

Don't absolve the writers of writing poorly. What they did to Garrosh was in no way the only option.
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  #49  
Old 03-23-2018, 06:41 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Sylvanas is a piece of shit she is worse than garrosh, at least Garrosh cared about some people as opposed to sylvanas "Voidlordtotallynotanoldgodminionusingloasghuunfor themtotellvoljintomakeherwarchieftogivehermoreexpe ndablefuckingfootsoldiers" SinRunnr.
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  #50  
Old 03-23-2018, 07:06 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Broken fanbases do not just happen. They are the result of years of missteps, and the Alliance is no exception. You cannot, for years, bury victories in the "text" of the work while allowing the aesthetics and framing to scream "you suck!", and expect players not to react to that framing. By and large, people don't play video games to feel incompetent, and Cataclysm gave the Alliance those feelings in spades.
Eh. I can't say much but the Alliance questlines in Southern Barrens and Twilight Highlands felt pretty satisfying.
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