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Old 04-13-2014, 06:56 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Runes What are the standards?

How do you think Blizz evaluates whether they told a good story or not?

Because a lot of the time I think they just assume that so long as they're still in business they're beyond criticism.
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Old 04-13-2014, 07:04 PM
Avon Avon is offline

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I assume they think doing the opposite of what everyone wants is good story telling.
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Old 04-13-2014, 07:11 PM
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They care about the story, and want to tell a good story. To them, a good story is a story that is fun to tell. That does not mean a story with continuity or good writing, or a story that can be presented well.
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Old 04-13-2014, 07:12 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
They care about the story, and want to tell a good story. To them, a good story is a story that is fun to tell. That does not mean a story with continuity or good writing, or a story that can be presented well.
So a story that's fun for them, but not necessarily for the players.

Sounds right.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:39 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Runes So how far do we take the rationalization?

At what point does making logical connections and inferences become making excuses for Blizzard?

Where do we draw the line from "Well they have limitations / They're Human" to... "This is sloppy / Bad" Or even "This needs work / attention"?
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:40 PM
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Things are stupid when ARM/Hlaalu can't rationalize them.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:42 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Things are stupid when ARM/Hlaalu can't rationalize them.
By that logic nothing is stupid.

ARM can make anything sound good and Hlaalu's damn close to that too.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
At what point does making logical connections and inferences become making excuses for Blizzard?

Where do we draw the line from "Well they have limitations / They're Human" to... "This is sloppy / Bad" Or even "This needs work / attention"?
I don't really think anyone here has a problem saying "Blizzard sucks" when it's warranted.

In hindsight, I think I've personally always tried to give them the benefit of the doubt, but have no problem calling their work crap when it's crap.

For example: I initially liked MoP, mostly because it wasn't Cataclysm, and because the Pandaren lore was a little new and fresh. But as time has gone on, I think Blizz has dropped the ball with the expansion... now I'm back to thinking they really haven't done much right since Wrath, and even that expansion introduced a few precedents that I wish would go away (mostly the notion of recycling content).
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:48 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
By that logic nothing is stupid.

ARM can make anything sound good and Hlaalu's damn close to that too.
Hmm, you've not seen my stance on the development of Varian and Jaina then, I take it?

I really can't sugar-coat how shoddily I feel that's been handled, and not even because of the whole "High King" part either. That's just an added irritation, really.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:50 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I don't really think anyone here has a problem saying "Blizzard sucks" when it's warranted.

In hindsight, I think I've personally always tried to give them the benefit of the doubt, but have no problem calling their work crap when it's crap.

For example: I initially liked MoP, mostly because it wasn't Cataclysm, and because the Pandaren lore was a little new and fresh. But as time has gone on, I think Blizz has dropped the ball with the expansion... now I'm back to thinking they really haven't done much right since Wrath, and even that expansion introduced a few precedents that I wish would go away (mostly the notion of recycling content).
Exactly.

On the other hand, I'm not afraid to give credit where it's due, Gilneas? Beautiful. The Zandalari on the Isle of Thunder? Fantastic. The Iron Horde's and much of Draenor's Thematics/Aesthetics in General? Amazing.

But the story still bites and all that cool stuff doesn't matter when the factions are a bunch of dull idiots that aren't all that likeable or respectable.

Alliance-side they actually seem to be fixing this. You have a Dark Iron, a Worgen, and some Draenei.

Whereas Hordeside...

ORCS ORCS ORCS ORCS and what's worse they're the most boring orcs ever the Frostwolves (Again, to be fair they might be making the Frostwolves actually interesting but I'm still nervous we won't see much else of the "Family" in WoD, just orcs finding themselves 2.0).


And Blizz doesn't ever seem to want to acknowledge it has done anything but a spectacular job.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Hmm, you've not seen my stance on the development of Varian and Jaina then, I take it?

I really can't sugar-coat how shoddily I feel that's been handled, and not even because of the whole "High King" part either. That's just an added irritation, really.
Agreed. Complete miss there.

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Exactly.

On the other hand, I'm not afraid to give credit where it's due, Gilneas? Beautiful. The Zandalari on the Isle of Thunder? Fantastic. The Iron Horde's and much of Draenor's Thematics/Aesthetics in General? Amazing.

But the story still bites and all that cool stuff doesn't matter when the factions are a bunch of dull idiots that aren't all that likeable or respectable.

Alliance-side they actually seem to be fixing this. You have a Dark Iron, a Worgen, and some Draenei.

Whereas Hordeside...

ORCS ORCS ORCS ORCS and what's worse they're the most boring orcs ever the Frostwolves (Again, to be fair they might be making the Frostwolves actually interesting but I'm still nervous we won't see much else of the "Family" in WoD, just orcs finding themselves 2.0).


And Blizz doesn't ever seem to want to acknowledge it has done anything but a spectacular job.
It's not just the lore, either... the gameplay has been totally borked.

One of the game's greatest strengths was its legacy - the fact that it was old was actually a perk, IMO. It was nice being able to go back and see how things were. They started screwing with that in Wrath by taking out the old Naxx, and they completely fucked it up in Cataclysm. I really, really hate that they did that.

They could have created an alternative 1-60 leveling path while leaving the old stuff alone. It would have cost them nothing. They could have made a copy of Naxx in Wrath, called it something else, and left the old one alone. It was stupid of them not to.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:57 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
Things are stupid when ARM/Hlaalu can't rationalize them.
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
By that logic nothing is stupid.

ARM can make anything sound good and Hlaalu's damn close to that too.
Aww, thanks.
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Old 04-14-2014, 12:00 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Agreed. Complete miss there.



It's not just the lore, either... the gameplay has been totally borked.

One of the game's greatest strengths was its legacy - the fact that it was old was actually a perk, IMO. It was nice being able to go back and see how things were. They started screwing with that in Wrath by taking out the old Naxx, and they completely fucked it up in Cataclysm. I really, really hate that they did that.

They could have created an alternative 1-60 leveling path while leaving the old stuff alone. It would have cost them nothing. They could have made a copy of Naxx in Wrath, called it something else, and left the old one alone. It was stupid of them not to.
Can't believe they took out the Fallen Hero of the Horde from his own quest chain in the Blasted Lands.

I mean the Demonhunter's all well and good but I miss him
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Old 04-14-2014, 12:02 AM
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Can't believe they took out the Fallen Hero of the Horde from his own quest chain in the Blasted Lands.

I mean the Demonhunter's all well and good but I miss him
I miss the old Quel'serrar quest.

I missed out entirely on having any shot at Atiesh or Corrupted Ashbringer.

I miss Edwin Van Cleef.

Ugh... I don't even want to continue this list... too depressing.
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Old 04-14-2014, 12:24 AM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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the problem is they're trying to tell a good story while maintaining a full universe of characters. This means focusing on a select few, and ignoring the rest. Siege of Orgrimmar shows this, and while they do give some attention to other characters, it really all boils down to the Thrall/Varian/Jaina/Vol'jin storylines.

I don't think the stories they tell are necessarily bad, but it's terrible for keeping a balanced historic continuity. You get chunks of story with nothing to string them all together.
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Old 04-14-2014, 12:32 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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the problem is they're trying to tell a good story while maintaining a full universe of characters. This means focusing on a select few, and ignoring the rest. Siege of Orgrimmar shows this, and while they do give some attention to other characters, it really all boils down to the Thrall/Varian/Jaina/Vol'jin storylines.

I don't think the stories they tell are necessarily bad, but it's terrible for keeping a balanced historic continuity. You get chunks of story with nothing to string them all together.
This is ridiculous.

We had way too much Thrall focus in Cata.

And now instead of developing new characters they're retreading old ones.

Plenty of zones exist where new characters could've had more attention and existing ones barely got any and Blizz instead chose to focus on a few big names.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:34 AM
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This is ridiculous.

We had way too much Thrall focus in Cata.

And now instead of developing new characters they're retreading old ones.

Plenty of zones exist where new characters could've had more attention and existing ones barely got any and Blizz instead chose to focus on a few big names.
The lore in MoP was just a case study in missed opportunities all over the place.

You've got a whole new continent that has never seen any of the shit the rest of Azeroth has seen for the last 10,000 years... potential for all new bad-guys and good-guys that aren't the least bit connected to the same-old, same-old.

The Mogu could have been awesome. Hell, the Thunder King could have been awesome. Had they stood on their own. But, nope... LETS ADD FUCKING TROLLS TO THEIR STORY.

The Sha could have been awesome. Totally unique bad guys. Maybe their origins are some dark and mysterious byproduct of the mists themselves. Sort of a yin/yang relationship. But, nope... LETS JUST MAKE THEM FUCKING OLD GODS AGAIN LOLZ.

The Mantid were pretty cool. I mean, a compelling bug empire that EVERYBODY was scared of (Mogu and Pandaren alike)... But, nope... LETS JUST MAKE THEM IDENTICAL TO THE QUIRAJI BUGS.

The final boss of Pandaria could have been a super-Sha, birthed by the collapse of the Mists, or another resurrected Mogu Emperor, or a pissed off Celestial, or a great Klaxxi Paragon that we should have left sleeping (Khan, anyone?)... but, nope.... LETS RAID FUCKING ORGRIMMAR, WHICH IS NOWHERE NEAR PANDARIA AND COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE PANDAREN STORY.

God, you fucked this up BAD, Blizzard. Not quite as bad as Cataclysm, but pretty fucking bad.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:39 AM
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Exactly, it's like they tried to tie things to the rest of the world without tying things t the rest of the world.

We had Mantid but no one from our factions brings up the Qiraji or nerubians when dealing with them do they?

We have Yaungol but the tauren never talk to them do they?


Do the darkspear even interact with the Zandalari in MoP onscreen? Or is it completely relegated to the books?
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Old 04-14-2014, 03:43 AM
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I don't know what the standards are, but they're somewhere in the Mariana Trench at this point.
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Old 04-14-2014, 03:46 AM
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I assume they think doing the opposite of what everyone wants is good story telling.
Seems that way, its the old dangling a carrot method, convince the crowds to have big plans for them, and then do the complete opposite, making them rage, but still wanting the carrot so there forced to remain if something good actually does come, which it doesn't.

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They care about the story, and want to tell a good story. To them, a good story is a story that is fun to tell. That does not mean a story with continuity or good writing, or a story that can be presented well.
I'll correct you, they Use to love telling good stories. Now they just roll out whatever shit they think will make for heated debates on threads and don't really give a shit if a few subs leave over it.
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:34 AM
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Whilst I agree with Bolvar that MoP was full of mist (HA) opportunities at least it finally finished off the faction war. Would you rather suffer another expansion of that?

The Thunder King really should have been MoP's main antagonist though.
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:35 AM
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The fact that many people thought the premise of WoD was a joke leak speaks volumes of Blizzard's standards.
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Old 04-14-2014, 06:09 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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A big problem may be that Blizzard's ethos relies pretty heavily on what's colloquially known as "Rule of Cool". This is the idea that whatever's coolest (by a particular definition) dictates the course of the plot. In small amounts this can work quite well, but it eventually suffers from diminishing returns as the creators struggle to top each epic set-piece.

Another is the age of the audience. As people grow older, they often think more critically about matters like plot. What may have passed muster back in the day no longer seems plausible. However, it's worth pointing out that some players started WoW at comparatively older ages and are still disappointed with much of the new content. Likewise, most players never WoW as high art or anything even when younger.

Also, the setting had fewer moving parts back in the old days, which allowed for more focused storytelling. There are now dozens of unresolved plots that they simply do not have the time to address. This has probably contributed to the increased emphasis on orcs for the Horde and humans for the Alliance.

There's also the matter of fatigue in both the creators and the players.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:36 PM
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Helping you get closer to the truth:
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Azekiel: @Loreology @MickyNeilson @ChrisMetzen @DaveKosak How does Blizzard internally evaluate the success or quality of their stories?
Quote:
Micky Neilson: @Loreology @Azekiel @ChrisMetzen @DaveKosak We employ professional story developers. Success is measured by views/numbers, reviews, etc.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:36 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
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The fact that many people thought the premise of WoD was a joke leak speaks volumes of Blizzard's standards.
Same can be said of MoP.
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