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  #651  
Old 10-06-2017, 08:35 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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It seems that the people most resistant to reality and adhering to ideological fantasy despite all manner of facts to the contrary tend to be religious, though.
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  #652  
Old 10-06-2017, 09:16 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
It seems that the people most resistant to reality and adhering to ideological fantasy despite all manner of facts to the contrary tend to be religious, though.
I mean... you can argue with me that a living human being isn't a living human being, or you can argue with some of your fellow liberals that easy universal access to the most effective firearms doesn't result in frequent mass shootings (even though that's what's been happening).

And economics? Once a human finds his economic philosophy and clings to it, it seems so personally intuitive to him that everyone else is obviously living in an "ideological fantasy" about how numbers and reality work.

I'm not saying all beliefs are equal, because they aren't. But part of empathy is remembering that people have reasons for believing what they do. It's not always a blind lockstep.
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  #653  
Old 10-07-2017, 07:57 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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@Sarah, when I think militant atheist I think one that is very critical or religion and outspoken about it. I'd also argue that is the general usage of the term. I certainly did not mean to imply you go around rounding up believers and throwing them into gulags, or even just imaging doing it

Ultimately you and I would probably agree on most things though I feel our outlooks are quite different. For example I too am 99,99999% sure there is no magic of any kind but I am sad about this fact because a brief stint in a meaningless universe followed by eternal darkness is about as depressing as it gets imo. I want to want to believe but I can't, don't have it in me. So I am not very religious and would not like being faced with an overbearing theocracy. And while I can agree that religion was used to justify bad things it also inspired people to be good, also religion is another tool that can bind a bunch of people into a society. You probably don't think that matters and (if I recall your beliefs correctly) think we should be loyal to the whole species rather than any subsection. Which I would argue is a laudable thought but quite unlikely to matter any time soon. I'd also argue that tradition matters, that we have a debt to our ancestors to at least pay homage to what they fought and died for. Which I am sure you'd dismiss outright.

... So yeah, similar ideas but quite different outlooks
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  #654  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:53 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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A court has ruled that it's okay to discriminate against certain guests from giving invocations/prayers based on their religion or lack thereof.
"Although the court found that Barker was injured, and that the defendants did not have legislative immunity, she ruled that none of the defendants was ultimately responsible for that injury.
The judge claimed that the chaplain was powerless to allow Barker to give the invocation, due to House rules yet also dismissed Barker's claim against the House itself. The decision fails to identify who, if not the House chaplain and the House itself, could be sued for implementing a rule excluding nonbelievers from participation."
There's an impressive level of bullshit there. Yes, there was wrongdoing, no, nobody is immune, but who did it is a mystery that cannot be solved so don't bother trying!
https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...t-wake-up-call
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  #655  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:26 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
A court has ruled that it's okay to discriminate against certain guests from giving invocations/prayers based on their religion or lack thereof.
"Although the court found that Barker was injured, and that the defendants did not have legislative immunity, she ruled that none of the defendants was ultimately responsible for that injury.
The judge claimed that the chaplain was powerless to allow Barker to give the invocation, due to House rules yet also dismissed Barker's claim against the House itself. The decision fails to identify who, if not the House chaplain and the House itself, could be sued for implementing a rule excluding nonbelievers from participation."
There's an impressive level of bullshit there. Yes, there was wrongdoing, no, nobody is immune, but who did it is a mystery that cannot be solved so don't bother trying!
https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...t-wake-up-call

Are you fucking shitting me?
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  #656  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:34 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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A non issue and a foundation drumming up controversy for the sake of it.
woo.
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  #657  
Old 10-14-2017, 10:14 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
A non issue and a foundation drumming up controversy for the sake of it.
woo.
If the judge had at least said who the real defendant should be, I might buy that. If not them, then who?

Edit:
A Satanist in MO has won a case about anti-abortion laws violating her freedom of religion. I love these guys.
http://www.worldreligionnews.com/rel...igious-beliefs
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  #658  
Old 10-14-2017, 10:19 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Please try to avoid double posting.
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  #659  
Old 10-14-2017, 10:28 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Please try to avoid double posting.
I thought it was okay if the second post included new news on the subject. My bad.
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  #660  
Old 10-14-2017, 10:33 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I thought it was okay if the second post included new news on the subject. My bad.
No problemo. (As far as I know, there need to be at least 3 days between the posts regardless of the subject.)
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  #661  
Old 10-14-2017, 03:12 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
If the judge had at least said who the real defendant should be, I might buy that. If not them, then who?

Edit:
A Satanist in MO has won a case about anti-abortion laws violating her freedom of religion. I love these guys.
http://www.worldreligionnews.com/rel...igious-beliefs
Well, good news for the Aztecs.
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  #662  
Old 10-15-2017, 08:40 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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So, me rambling thoughts and everything right now.
I've come to see political ideology as a far greater threat than religion.
While religion fancies itself with silly fantasies one thing I've come to realize is that it's often less dangerous due to the concept of "personal salvation." Personal salvation allows for an individual to exist within a society of other people while simultaneously gaining "utopia". On the otherhand, a political ideology which has the main aim of establishing a utopia on earth can only arrive at "salvation" through either creating or taking control of society. Thus political ideologies require more than the individual and involve social control not personal discipline, a highly bloody existence.

While it is in the realm of possibility for society to develop competing philosophies on what is "the good life" and for these to compete for individual attention and "salvation" it does not seem to have a strong enough pull.
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  #663  
Old 10-22-2017, 02:49 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The GOP is trying to turn churches into PACs.
http://ramedium.com/republicans-usin...-church-state/
I don't understand why so many religious people hate the first amendment.
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  #664  
Old 10-22-2017, 07:39 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
The GOP is trying to turn churches into PACs.
http://ramedium.com/republicans-usin...-church-state/
I don't understand why so many religious people hate the first amendment.
It's probably related to why everyone in the country "hated the first amendment" until 1954.

Yeah, I've said before that I think this can only end with religious organizations losing their tax exempt status (likely followed by charitable groups forming as "independent" satellites of these religious groups, and those charities gaining the tax exempt status). But I feel it's only tangentially related to the religious establishment clause of the First Amendment.

EDIT: Meh, the whole thing is de facto null right now anyway.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/johnwha...amendment/amp/
Quote:
The distinction between 501c(3) and 501c(4) organizations apply to more than just churches. Planned Parenthood is a 501c(3) and cannot endorse candidates. On the other hand, Planned Parenthood Action is a 501c(4) that endorsed Hillary Clinton.
Tell me Planned Parenthood doesn't endorse or oppose political candidates, and then we can all enjoy a hearty bellylaugh together.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-22-2017 at 08:34 PM..
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  #665  
Old 10-22-2017, 08:58 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Tell me Planned Parenthood doesn't endorse or oppose political candidates, and then we can all enjoy a hearty bellylaugh together.
You just quoted a source saying that they don't. You do know that religious PACs are a thing, right?
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  #666  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:34 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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You just quoted a source saying that they don't. You do know that religious PACs are a thing, right?
Everybody knows which candidates the various churches, preachers, and Planned Parenthood leaders endorse. The value of saying they can't endorse candidates is nil, because it happens anyway. That's my point.

https://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...llary-clinton/

Quote:
The endorsement, technically made through the nonprofit's advocacy arm, Planned Parenthood Action Fund...
Technically, technically. The churches don't technically support anyone, either. Meh, the value of technically?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-23-2017 at 02:42 AM..
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  #667  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:50 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Everybody knows which candidates the various churches, preachers, and Planned Parenthood leaders endorse. The value of saying they can't endorse candidates is nil, because it happens anyway. That's my point.

https://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...llary-clinton/



Technically, technically. The churches don't technically support anyone, either. Meh, the value of technically?
Still separate, and still not sending money to campaigns.
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  #668  
Old 10-23-2017, 06:02 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Pause. I seem to have made a goalpost error. Lemme rewind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
The GOP is trying to turn churches into PACs.
http://ramedium.com/republicans-usin...-church-state/
I don't understand why so many religious people hate the first amendment.
I missed the crux of your article:

Quote:
Nonprofits that lack a faith affiliation, meanwhile, would still be beholden to the amendment.
That is a problem. Honestly, politicians should be able to agree that the Johnson Amendment is silly and therefore unenforced (which the article does seem to confirm) and act accordingly WITHOUT trying to create new legal divisions between spiritual and non-spiritual non-profits.
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  #669  
Old 11-10-2017, 05:09 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Random tidbit from another thread...

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Roy Moore, a Republican who was kicked off of Alabama's supreme court twice for denying the Constitution and is running for Senate while proclaiming that "the transgenders don't have any rights," has been accused of sexually assaulting 4 women, 1 of which was 14 at the time. Rushing to his defense is another Republican saying that "Mary was a teenager" too. Yyyep.
http://time.com/5017940/roy-moore-se...e-jim-ziegler/
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3...nt-have-rights
Incidentally, that would make the Republican fellow neither Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Coptic, Assyrian, nor nearly any type of Christian that came before the 1500s.

He is also not Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer, or John Wesley... but I guess we also know that because they died.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perp...ginity_of_Mary
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  #670  
Old 11-10-2017, 05:32 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is online now

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He probably meant when Mary was married to Joseph (though she was probably closer to twelve when they married). Honestly, the whole way this is being handled is stupid.
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  #671  
Old 11-28-2017, 11:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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From another thread:

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
No, it's simple revisionist history bullshit that Christians love to pull. Finding the rare outlier that supported it doesn't mean much. Even most of the churches that "supported" gay marriage in the early to mid 00s took the position that gays should be allowed to be together, but it should be limited to being a "civil union" and keeping "marriage" for heterosexual couples.
The groups Genesis refers to represent a sort of secularizing trend. They're the mainstream (non-evangelical) Protestants.

I am of the opinion that they lack roots, that most of their membership are destined to become atheists (like Genesis) or members of a different spirituality/religion (like myself).

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-28-2017 at 12:00 PM..
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  #672  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:59 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
The groups Genesis refers to represent a sort of secularizing trend. They're the mainstream (non-evangelical) Protestants.

I am of the opinion that they lack roots, that most of their membership are destined to become atheists (like Genesis) or members of a different spirituality/religion (like myself).
Nope. Fuck you, BaronGrackle and your disrespectful mouth. You don't speak for me, my experiences, or my current beliefs. You know nothing. Speak for yourself, but not for me. And for the record, your condescending brand of Roman Catholicism turns me off more than anything mainstream Protestants have said, done, or professed. It has nothing to do with "roots" or secularizing trends. So take your poor excuse for a shitty half-baked opinion and cram it up your ass so far that you can chew it in your mouth.
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  #673  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:19 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Nope. Fuck you, BaronGrackle and your disrespectful mouth. You don't speak for me, my experiences, or my current beliefs. You know nothing. Speak for yourself, but not for me. And for the record, your condescending brand of Roman Catholicism turns me off more than anything mainstream Protestants have said, done, or professed. It has nothing to do with "roots" or secularizing trends. So take your poor excuse for a shitty half-baked opinion and cram it up your ass so far that you can chew it in your mouth.
I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not.
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  #674  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:02 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Nope. Fuck you, BaronGrackle and your disrespectful mouth. You don't speak for me, my experiences, or my current beliefs. You know nothing. Speak for yourself, but not for me. And for the record, your condescending brand of Roman Catholicism turns me off more than anything mainstream Protestants have said, done, or professed. It has nothing to do with "roots" or secularizing trends. So take your poor excuse for a shitty half-baked opinion and cram it up your ass so far that you can chew it in your mouth.
And you have a theology-related classroom. For the life of me, I don't understand why this is your nerve.

EDIT: Seriously. When I get told my ilk is the Whore of Babylon and enemy of true Christianity, I understand why and want to answer. When an atheist indicates my folk are the historical enemies of progress and all things good, that's something worth talking about. I know they're looking out for me as a person, to enrich me and the world. So I jump at a chance to answer. We sharpen each other that way. It's a journey for truth, right?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-28-2017 at 05:26 PM..
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  #675  
Old 11-28-2017, 06:08 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
And you have a theology-related classroom. For the life of me, I don't understand why this is your nerve.

EDIT: Seriously. When I get told my ilk is the Whore of Babylon and enemy of true Christianity, I understand why and want to answer. When an atheist indicates my folk are the historical enemies of progress and all things good, that's something worth talking about. I know they're looking out for me as a person, to enrich me and the world. So I jump at a chance to answer. We sharpen each other that way. It's a journey for truth, right?
To be fair, I can see why the protestant mindset of "do literally whatever you want as long as you feel bad about it later and tell Jesus you love him" would be opposed by more traditional sects.
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