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  #26  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:47 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
The point was that we, as humans, did things far worse than the orcs.
I don't know. Orcs tortured and corrupted countless Draenei souls. The souls of priests got fed to demons or used as fuel for demon engines. That's pretty evil. Funny enough, the orcs are probably the most ''human'' race.
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  #27  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:04 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Marthen is right, you know.
Et tu Nazja?


ANd it's not a mater of it being some universal truth, it's what's demonstrably played out over time.

People have not enjoyed the 'stupid evil' angle Blizz has given the Horde.

It's not even that they were tricked that's bad, it's just the way they did it.
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  #28  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:10 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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An original tale of survival, conflict and magic that leads directly into the events of the eagerly-anticipated blockbuster movie. In the realm of Azeroth, the strong and fiercely independent Frostwolf Clan are faced with increasingly harsh winters and thinning herds. When Gul'dan, a mysterious outsider, arrives in Frostfire Ridge offering word of new hunting lands, Durotan, the Clan's chieftain, must make an impossible decision: Abandon the territory, pride and traditions of his people, or lead them into the unknown.
Am I the only one taking issue with the highlighted sentence?
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  #29  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:12 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Am I the only one taking issue with the highlighted sentence?
It's just a typo. We saw the scene of the portal in the leaked video. The editor must have made a mistake.
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  #30  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:31 AM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Am I the only one taking issue with the highlighted sentence?
Confirmed by Golden on Twitter to be a typo.

Last edited by Mordecay; 09-25-2015 at 07:39 AM..
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  #31  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:32 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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I wonder what the Lore would be like if the Lord of the Clans game was released. Or at least that Golden's book and other sources of Lore were more like it.

In that version there was no demon curse, shamanism was flat-out necromancy, etc.
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  #32  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:56 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
I wonder what the Lore would be like if the Lord of the Clans game was released. Or at least that Golden's book and other sources of Lore were more like it.

In that version there was no demon curse, shamanism was flat-out necromancy, etc.
That would be interesting. I liked the Lord of the Clans game's story, except the part with Deathwing. But then again, Deathwing also was waisted in WoW so it's not like it really matters.
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  #33  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:09 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
I wonder what the Lore would be like if the Lord of the Clans game was released. Or at least that Golden's book and other sources of Lore were more like it.

In that version there was no demon curse, shamanism was flat-out necromancy, etc.
In terms of the narrative leading to Warcraft III? Mostly same, I would say. In terms of the narrative of Warcraft III? Still quite similar, I think. The main difference would be in the darker potrayal of both humans and orcs.
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  #34  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:52 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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There were other differences that just might tally up to a shifted Lore from what we got. Like Deathwing being Queen Alex's son who dies, the two not being Aspects, and Alex helping to take down a human army that did nothing to her or her brood. Or Ner'zhul being the power behind Blackhand and Doomhammer with Gul'dan apparently being lowered if not absent.

Last edited by Galdus; 09-25-2015 at 08:57 AM..
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  #35  
Old 09-25-2015, 04:20 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
It was given a flimsy excuse, and regardless of whether it'd be believable for IRL humans, it made for a lousy backstory to a playable race in a videogame.
Deception and psychology are not flimsy excuses. If anything it whitewashed orcs even more compared to WC1/WC2. In RotH the blame was basically shifted from an entire people to a few individuals. Aside from principles of storytelling, for example Chekhov's gun, realistic is better.

But from reading your later posts, I get the assumption that your problem is with how stupid the orcs were to be tricked.
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  #36  
Old 09-25-2015, 04:59 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Maybe the noble savage angle was the wrong direction for the Horde? Or at least the ''transformed thanks to otherworldly power'' part.

Last edited by Galdus; 09-25-2015 at 05:21 PM..
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  #37  
Old 09-25-2015, 05:57 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
Maybe the noble savage angle was the wrong direction for the Horde? Or at least the ''transformed thanks to otherworldly power'' part.
I think it's an awesome angle. Most IPs feature orcs as an evil and disposable race.
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  #38  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:00 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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But it was WC3 that made the Orcs more like Tolkien's. Before, they were way more independent than what WC3 did with them.
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  #39  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:21 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
But it was WC3 that made the Orcs more like Tolkien's. Before, they were way more independent than what WC3 did with them.
I will have to ask you to elaborate. My only experience with Tolkien orcs is through the first film trilogy.
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  #40  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:29 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Tolkien's Orcs were pawns of Sauron. Like how WC3's Orcs were revealed to be pawns of Kil'jaeden.
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  #41  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:56 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Orcs aren't really noble savages anymore, that requires them to still be primitive and they've advanced quite a bit since Cataclysm. Referring to yourself as a 'war machine' kinda eliminates the whole primitive idea that noble savages uphold. Not to mention that 'innate goodness' doesn't seem to be a theme of Orcs when what's innate in them is a lust for war and conquest. I don't think that's necessarily an evil thing, I just don't think it's noble either.

If anything, the strongest example of Orcs being noble savages are the Frostwolf clan because they don't rely on technology and don't really have much of a sprawling civilization. Innate goodness also seems to be a theme with them, since they turn away from the practices that the other Orc clans began to develop. Sadly though, they are not the Orcs we can play as.

I've played other games like Elder Scrolls and the Orcs in that game are a far stronger example of noble savages than Warcraft's Orcs.
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  #42  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:58 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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While that's true, I don't think it erases the differences. Tolkien orcs are not noble savages or shamanistic. They were evil because they were evil.
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  #43  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:05 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I think what separates Tolkien Orcs from Warcraft Orcs is that the former are a derivative of elves whereas the latter are basically alien invaders. In that regard, Elder Scrolls Orcs are ironically closer to being like Tolkien Orcs than Warcraft Orcs even though I prefer Elder Scrolls Orcs a lot more nowadays.
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  #44  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:54 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Yeah, I liked the WC3 angle better. And aren't Elder Scroll orcs descended from elves too? I like them but they don't seem to have much going on.
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  #45  
Old 09-25-2015, 09:06 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Deception and psychology are not flimsy excuses. If anything it whitewashed orcs even more compared to WC1/WC2. In RotH the blame was basically shifted from an entire people to a few individuals. Aside from principles of storytelling, for example Chekhov's gun, realistic is better.

But from reading your later posts, I get the assumption that your problem is with how stupid the orcs were to be tricked.
I really don't feel like we took the same things away.

I can't see RotH as a whitewash because it made the draenei genocide something that happened -without- demon blood to influence the orcs behavior, all it took was 'these guys are secretly plotting against you', and the orcs bought it and it did a very poor job of showing any orcs questioning this when faced with the Draenei's obviously noncombatant behavior (essentially, it didn't show anyone outside the frostwolves and ner'zhul question it at all)

The orcs being tricked isn't a problem, it was the portrayal of the process and how simple it was.

It is just mind-boggling that Ner'zhul was the only shaman to go to oshu'gun between the declaration of war on the draenei and gul'dan starting the guard the place with demons

It's mind-boggling that the draenei had no demon-alert system or contingency plan for the legion finding them.


And all of this is separate from my main issue with Golden, which is that she has a tendency to apply much of the game literally to the world without accounting for mechanics, distances, number of settlements and gamescale in particular (though this is not exclusive to her and is a problem in all of Blizz's media)
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  #46  
Old 09-26-2015, 03:54 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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The TBC Draenei don't work let's be honest.

The WC3 Eredar's backstory was frankly more believable for a race capable and down with traveling across worlds.

Last edited by Galdus; 09-26-2015 at 04:02 PM..
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  #47  
Old 09-26-2015, 06:49 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
The TBC Draenei don't work let's be honest.

The WC3 Eredar's backstory was frankly more believable for a race capable and down with traveling across worlds.
Totally.
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  #48  
Old 09-26-2015, 06:50 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
The TBC Draenei don't work let's be honest.

The WC3 Eredar's backstory was frankly more believable for a race capable and down with traveling across worlds.
True but that's a separate issue with TBC lore than Christie Golden's writing style.
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  #49  
Old 09-26-2015, 07:15 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
The TBC Draenei don't work let's be honest.

The WC3 Eredar's backstory was frankly more believable for a race capable and down with traveling across worlds.
You what would be a cool balance between the WC3 lore, and the modern Draenei lore? If the Eredar were ALWAYS evil demons, and the Draenei were just a branch that got sick of being evil and got redeemed by the light.

Course, that might be "cliched". I don't know.
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  #50  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:02 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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How does TBC Draenei not work?
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