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  #51  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:09 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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You what would be a cool balance between the WC3 lore, and the modern Draenei lore? If the Eredar were ALWAYS evil demons, and the Draenei were just a branch that got sick of being evil and got redeemed by the light.

Course, that might be "cliched". I don't know.
It's still a bit dumb, why do they even need to be linked to the Eredar, one of the most powerful demon races? Can't it be some minor demon races so there would be fewer problems?

Also pls take away those super technology, immortality, arcane magic, holy light and nature spirit, WAYY TOOO Mary Sueish.

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
How does TBC Draenei not work?
1 Retcon
2 super technology, immortality, arcane magic, holy light and nature spirit, relations to the burning legion lords making them WAYY TOOO Mary Sueish.
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  #52  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:26 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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In their old behind the scenes video, Blizzard said the retcon was because they really wanted playable eredar as the Alliance race for BC, and the draenei were the best idea they had for how it would work.
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  #53  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:29 PM
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In their old behind the scenes video, Blizzard said the retcon was because they really wanted playable eredar as the Alliance race for BC, and the draenei were the best idea they had for how it would work.
Which makes no sense to me.

All they need to say is "Some eredar met the naaru and turned good"

Literally no connection to the Draenei needed.
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  #54  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:32 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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To play devil's advocate... maybe it's also because they wanted the Alliance to have a shamanic race? Hard to tie them to shamanism if they're separated from Draenei.
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  #55  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:46 PM
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To play devil's advocate... maybe it's also because they wanted the Alliance to have a shamanic race? Hard to tie them to shamanism if they're separated from Draenei.
True but at the same time they could've just said shamanism was another path they explored, like the light.

Except Shamanism has been reduced to baby's first magic in the last few years... so hard to see why they'd want to.
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  #56  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:50 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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I wonder how the TBC Draenei and Blood Elves would have turned out if they swapped factions.
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  #57  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
I wonder how the TBC Draenei and Blood Elves would have turned out if they swapped factions.
Both would be about the same, Blizz has removed meaningful impact of the factions upon the narrative aside from the Orcs and certain human characters.
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  #58  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:55 PM
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How about set a third faction: The Illidari?

So you can have demon, blood elves, Dreanei and naga all together without breaking the lore at all.
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  #59  
Old 09-26-2015, 09:00 PM
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Both would be about the same, Blizz has removed meaningful impact of the factions upon the narrative aside from the Orcs and certain human characters.
But the Horde has turned out to be better off than the Alliance, if only due to how the Alliance has turned into the Wrynn Empire. Think of the TBC Draenei with the Blood Elves' spotlight.
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  #60  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:18 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
But the Horde has turned out to be better off than the Alliance
I think as far as race compilations go, yes, the Horde is much better off. Though storywise the Horde has its own narrative issues that are equally as unsalvagable as the Alliance's.
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  #61  
Old 09-27-2015, 06:09 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
You what would be a cool balance between the WC3 lore, and the modern Draenei lore? If the Eredar were ALWAYS evil demons, and the Draenei were just a branch that got sick of being evil and got redeemed by the light.

Course, that might be "cliched". I don't know.
That's what I usually suggest when we brainstorm ways of remaking the lore. The Eredar should've been conquerors before Sargeras got a hardon for them.
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  #62  
Old 09-27-2015, 06:12 PM
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But the Horde has turned out to be better off than the Alliance, if only due to how the Alliance has turned into the Wrynn Empire. Think of the TBC Draenei with the Blood Elves' spotlight.
Flipping factions wouldn't change tbc draenei's spotlight or lack thereof.
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  #63  
Old 09-28-2015, 07:36 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I really don't feel like we took the same things away.

I can't see RotH as a whitewash because it made the draenei genocide something that happened -without- demon blood to influence the orcs behavior, all it took was 'these guys are secretly plotting against you', and the orcs bought it and it did a very poor job of showing any orcs questioning this when faced with the Draenei's obviously noncombatant behavior (essentially, it didn't show anyone outside the frostwolves and ner'zhul question it at all)

The orcs being tricked isn't a problem, it was the portrayal of the process and how simple it was.

It is just mind-boggling that Ner'zhul was the only shaman to go to oshu'gun between the declaration of war on the draenei and gul'dan starting the guard the place with demons

It's mind-boggling that the draenei had no demon-alert system or contingency plan for the legion finding them.


And all of this is separate from my main issue with Golden, which is that she has a tendency to apply much of the game literally to the world without accounting for mechanics, distances, number of settlements and gamescale in particular (though this is not exclusive to her and is a problem in all of Blizz's media)
Must have, interesting how differently people can look at the same thing.

While what you are saying is true, I am still going to share what I observed. Originally orcs were evil, every single one of them. I don't recall demon blood being involved in their initial portrayal either but I could be wrong. WC3 changed that, and RotH further reinforced that. Orcs were turned form an all evil race to an innocent one that happened to be duped. I can't not call that whitewashing.

I do find it kinda funny you are concerned about realistic process of the orcs' corrupton when you dismissed realism earlier. A book has to keep a focused narrative. Your main complaints were brought up in the book, but it's only limited Durotan's perspective. If the story had been broader in scope then we might have seen more of how the orcs became corrupted.

I agree with Golden's writing not taking into account realistic world scales. I try to overlook it since she was able to make me care about the characters.
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  #64  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:00 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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One might keep in mind that the "whitewashing" of WC3 only really applied to some of the clans, in particular the Frostwolves, the Bleeding Hollow, and some of the Blackrocks.

Technically the Twilight's Hammer and certain of the clans who remained on Draenor (especially the Shattered Hand and Bonechewers) are, were, and always have been described as twisted monsters that the other clans thought were wholly untrustworthy and sick in the head due to their respective penchants for fanatical nihilism, ritual self-dismemberment, and cannibalism-fueled wearing of slaughtered enemies' body parts.

In that regard, WoD actually kind of reinforced the pre-WC3 lore of those clans, suggesting that Gul'dan probably had the right idea when he didn't let most of them participate in the invasion of Azeroth due to their being too difficult to control.

On that note, a lot of trouble caused by the orcs since WC3 might potentially be traceable to renewed exposure to the clans that were left behind on Draenor, several of which have retained their pre-WC3 precedents of having always been a bunch of rampaging maniacs that gleefully reveled in sadistic brutality from the very start.

After all, when they drink the blood again in WC3, who's involved? The Warsongs. When the Fel Horde is encountered, which clan is at the top? The Shattered Hand. In WoD, what clan is heavily implied in-game to have become Gul'dan's corpse-eating Shadow Council army? The Bonechewers. And when the worst of the Horde's old ways come to the fore again on Azeroth, who's in command? Garrosh, a Warsong.

Yeah...maybe MU Gul'dan had the right idea keeping certain clans of orcs away from the invasion of Azeroth. They just seem inherently too volatile and bloodthirsty to keep on a short leash.

Incidentally between the ritual tattoos and piercings, the tendency toward obsessive hero-worship, and Grommash's "meal" in his Lords of War short, the Warsongs almost seem like they might be a combination of the worst orcish traits, only made less evident at first glance by the fact that they happen to be rational and calculating rather than a pack of perpetually frothing lunatics.
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  #65  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:28 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I've never bothered to read the story, but even in the books, didn't the Orcs have a Darwinian culture? In fact, the Frostwolves seem to be the only "noble" Orc clan. Bleeding Hollow seemed pragmatic at best. The good Orcs comes down to individuals outside of the Frostwolves, rather than the race.
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  #66  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:46 PM
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I do find it kinda funny you are concerned about realistic process of the orcs' corrupton when you dismissed realism earlier. A book has to keep a focused narrative. Your main complaints were brought up in the book, but it's only limited Durotan's perspective. If the story had been broader in scope then we might have seen more of how the orcs became corrupted.
Poor word choice on my part, I suppose 'believable' might be better than realistic. Perhaps even 'compelling'?

I want the orcs to -not- seem like a bunch of jackasses that are super easy to get to commit genocide basically, and RoH did not do that for me.

I wanted the orcs to be a younger society that gets deceived by demons into doing terrible things, partially because they're fallible and mortal and like all societies they have their strengths and weaknesses, and partially because that's what demon's fucking DO and they do it VERY WELL.

Frankly I wanted something it didn't seem like a mage with some illusions fresh out of Dalaran could accomplish, I wanted to see why Kil'jaeden was called 'The Deceiver'

But admittedly all of this is offtopic and I've dwelled on it too long.

My concerns with Golden doing the writing for the movie novelization stand, she'll play it too literal and focus too much on hitting the bulletpoints Blizz gives her rather than making a cohesive narrative or believable characters that resonate with people.
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  #67  
Old 09-29-2015, 03:10 AM
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Now that the orcs were turned into degenerate Greeks turned Indians, what can you tell me about cannibalistic Indians during Alexander's time?
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  #68  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:17 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I've never bothered to read the story, but even in the books, didn't the Orcs have a Darwinian culture? In fact, the Frostwolves seem to be the only "noble" Orc clan. Bleeding Hollow seemed pragmatic at best. The good Orcs comes down to individuals outside of the Frostwolves, rather than the race.
WOD!Comics Blackhand is a true selfless hero.

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One might keep in mind that the "whitewashing" of WC3 only really applied to some of the clans, in particular the Frostwolves, the Bleeding Hollow, and some of the Blackrocks.

Technically the Twilight's Hammer and certain of the clans who remained on Draenor (especially the Shattered Hand and Bonechewers) are, were, and always have been described as twisted monsters that the other clans thought were wholly untrustworthy and sick in the head due to their respective penchants for fanatical nihilism, ritual self-dismemberment, and cannibalism-fueled wearing of slaughtered enemies' body parts.

In that regard, WoD actually kind of reinforced the pre-WC3 lore of those clans, suggesting that Gul'dan probably had the right idea when he didn't let most of them participate in the invasion of Azeroth due to their being too difficult to control.
wat

The Shattered Hand were never described as "twisted monsters" in WC2, and the ritual mutiliation by itself is practiced by tribal cultures of Earth, so calling it "monstrous" is not the best decision.

The Shattered Hand under Kargath was supposed to be one of the player-aligned clans in "Lord of the Clans" (curiously, Blackhand's sons were the total villains in this one), continued to survive in some from in WoW and started to include trolls in the New Horde, all the while glorifying Kargath Bladefist in at least four cases of topography.

Them being "on top of the Fel Horde" is related to the fact that Kargath captured Hellfire Citadel post-BTDP and was probably the first target for Magtheridon to corrupt when he invaded Draenor.

The monsters of WC2 that you are looking for were the Burning Blade Clan.

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  #69  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:23 AM
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WOD!Comics Blackhand is a true selfless hero.


wat

The Shattered Hand were never described as "twisted monsters" in WC2, and the ritual mutiliation by itself is practiced by tribal cultures of Earth, so calling it "monstrous" is not the best decision.

The Shattered Hand under Kargath was supposed to be one of the player-aligned clans in "Lord of the Clans" (curiously, Blackhand's sons were the total villains in this one), continued to survive in some from in WoW and started to include trolls in the New Horde, all the while glorifying Kargath Bladefist in at least four cases of topography.

Them being "on top of the Fel Horde" is related to the fact that Kargath captured Hellfire Citadel post-BTDP and was probably the first target for Magtheridon to corrupt when he invaded Draenor.

The monsters of WC2 that you are looking for were the Burning Blade Clan.
I still feel the best way to handle Kargath is to reveal that he was Orgrim's spy on the Shadow Council.

It explains him being the only known Non-caster in the inner circle (other warriors either wouldn't or couldn't be assed to get in, but he's smart enough and would be willing to lie or play along to get deeper in).

It explains how Orgrim was able to catch Garona too.
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Old 09-29-2015, 09:39 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Even in WoD, the Horde clans aren't the only good clans. Fenris might have been a bastard for being willing to kill his own family, but he did it for what he thought was the greater good, and not because he enjoyed doing so. Being misguided doesn't mean that you're evil, it just means that you're wrong.

That is why I like the WoD orcs, to some extent. Their portrayal, in-game, made them seem more villainous.
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Old 09-29-2015, 09:45 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I don't have much problems with the Rise of the Horde, except for:

1) Populating Draenor with clans that should not yet exist and forcing us to come up with explanations for them (looking at you, Blackrocks and Dragonmaw)

2) Ner'zhul playing a weakling that Gul'dan EXACTLY wants to see, instead of coming out with the fact that he was deceived to the clans.

3) EIGHTY FROSTWOLF ORCS. And, what, 200 Draenei from Argus? This shit should be fixed. Good Ol' Christie and her sense of scale.

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Which makes no sense to me.

All they need to say is "Some eredar met the naaru and turned good"

Literally no connection to the Draenei needed.
Sure. Why not just make them "Light Eredar" and have draenei as a separate race?

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I still feel the best way to handle Kargath is to reveal that he was Orgrim's spy on the Shadow Council.

It explains him being the only known Non-caster in the inner circle (other warriors either wouldn't or couldn't be assed to get in, but he's smart enough and would be willing to lie or play along to get deeper in).

It explains how Orgrim was able to catch Garona too.
Interesting.

Personally, I was thinking how to connect him to the goddamn WoD backstory, and thought that this is a good opportunity.

Basically, Gul'dan sees the young chieftain and tries to make him more "civilized" instead of a brute he is - so that Gul'dan has his own enforcer among the chieftains. It works... Until Gul'dan leaves for Azeroth. Left to his own devices, but with better education, Kargath sobers up from being drunk on dark magic and takes the fact that, y'know, their world is dying, more seriously.

Of course, WoD backstory still destroys the idea that the Shattered Hand had, you know, long-standing traditions and culture. Instead, they are just masochists. So, how about we ignore it altogether?

As for RotH's "Kargath on Shadow Council", I think this is a simple mistake in which Shattered Hand switched places with the Bleeding Hollow, which continues to the end of the book, where Shattered Hand goes to Azeroth and Bleeding Hollow stays home, which is obviously not what happened. Don't you agree that it makes more sense for Kilrogg, the namesake (creator?) of a warlock spell, to be on the Shadow Council, instead of an orc that was mostly known for saying "Yup. Yup. CHOP CHOP" in a silly way?
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  #72  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Even in WoD, the Horde clans aren't the only good clans. Fenris might have been a bastard for being willing to kill his own family, but he did it for what he thought was the greater good, and not because he enjoyed doing so. Being misguided doesn't mean that you're evil, it just means that you're wrong.

That is why I like the WoD orcs, to some extent. Their portrayal, in-game, made them seem more villainous.
1. Didn't he laugh about murdering his old clan and stuff?

2. Eh? I feel like we've had enough villainous orcs.
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  #73  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:00 AM
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1. Didn't he laugh about murdering his old clan and stuff?

2. Eh? I feel like we've had enough villainous orcs.
In the game maybe, but in the superior comic, you could see his tears. He, and some of the others, simply want their clans to no longer have to fear for their lives. That's why they joined the Iron Horde, so they no longer have to fear the ogres, Breakers, Primals and arakkoa.

He learned that by working together, the orcs could defeat stronger foes, even if it meant sacrificing some of their own. That's why he needs the IH and is willing to sacrifice some orcs, including his former clan, if it means that the rest will be able to enjoy a better life. Blackhand is the same, I think. If Garrosh had allowed Grom to see the rest of the vision, maybe they could have been heroes of the Steel Horde.

I agree that we should stop having to fight orcish foes, though.

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Old 09-29-2015, 10:09 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Alternate idea for Orcs:

1. Long ago Orcs are going around punching each-other and other natives on Draenor like the Draenei (who are not connected to the Eredar at all). Screw making them noble savages. Their lineage been prey and predators for so long that being so would be silly.

2. Kil'jaeden shows up, sees the Orcs have potential as a client race. Disguises himself as a figure of worship who appears to the Orcs. He serves as their Prometheus in that he moves the Orcs along in their development.

3. Kil leaves. The Orcs go through many many years of working out what Kil'jaeden does for them. By the time WC1's backstory comes the Orcs have cemented themselves as the Apex race on Draenor.

Also, Orcish Necromancy is a branch of Shamanism while Demonology stemmed from whatever the Elemental callers did.
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  #75  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:13 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Personally, I was thinking how to connect him to the goddamn WoD backstory, and thought that this is a good opportunity.

Basically, Gul'dan sees the young chieftain and tries to make him more "civilized" instead of a brute he is - so that Gul'dan has his own enforcer among the chieftains. It works... Until Gul'dan leaves for Azeroth. Left to his own devices, but with better education, Kargath sobers up from being drunk on dark magic and takes the fact that, y'know, their world is dying, more seriously.

Of course, WoD backstory still destroys the idea that the Shattered Hand had, you know, long-standing traditions and culture. Instead, they are just masochists. So, how about we ignore it altogether?

As for RotH's "Kargath on Shadow Council", I think this is a simple mistake in which Shattered Hand switched places with the Bleeding Hollow, which continues to the end of the book, where Shattered Hand goes to Azeroth and Bleeding Hollow stays home, which is obviously not what happened. Don't you agree that it makes more sense for Kilrogg, the namesake (creator?) of a warlock spell, to be on the Shadow Council, instead of an orc that was mostly known for saying "Yup. Yup. CHOP CHOP" in a silly way?
Yeah let's ignore WoD, it's dumb and bad and terrible :|


Dunno why spoiler tags but yeah I felt Kilrogg would've been more likely to pretend to be on the Shadow Council.
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