Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > Halls of Lordaeron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #9876  
Old 05-19-2017, 08:57 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 17,852

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You have people who benefit at other's expense because of government favoritism
Some would argue that nowadays the government favors the corporations. That they have reached a happy equilibrium of corruption.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #9877  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:00 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Some would argue that nowadays the government favors the corporations. That they have reached a happy equilibrium of corruption.
Governments tend to help those that help them whether that be a powerful bureaucratic body, corporations that do them favors, or industries they create with tax payer money.
Reply With Quote
  #9878  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:08 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

Elune
miffy23's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 10,096
BattleTag: miffy#1110

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Governments tend to help those that help them whether that be a powerful bureaucratic body, corporations that do them favors, or industries they create with tax payer money.
It fascinates me that you still insist on viewing "governments" as separate entities from the corporate lobbies that influence them, or more hilariously, as an opposing force that is actually attempting to control corporate.

Or that you can't see that the statement you just made pretty much describes why the US is a *drumroll* corporate state.
__________________
El. Psy. Congroo.
Reply With Quote
  #9879  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:16 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,001

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
industries they create with tax payer money.

Such as?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #9880  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:19 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
It fascinates me that you still insist on viewing "governments" as separate entities from the corporate lobbies that influence them, or more hilariously, as an opposing force that is actually attempting to control corporate.

Or that you can't see that the statement you just made pretty much describes why the US is a *drumroll* corporate state.
You don't fascinate me. You just make me sad and perplexed. Your ideas are so out there and don't make much sense but you are really proud for having them. Condescension isn't a substitute for substance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Such as?
Academia.
Reply With Quote
  #9881  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:35 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,001

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You don't fascinate me. You just make me sad and perplexed. Your ideas are so out there and don't make much sense but you are really proud for having them. Condescension isn't a substitute for substance.



Academia.
1. Could say the same thing about you.

2. Not really. Academia has its problems but it's not an industry 'created' by the government.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #9882  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:38 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
2. Not really. Academia has its problems but it's not an industry 'created' by the government.
It receives a lot of tax money. It is the way the government does it I think that promotes a lot of the corruption you see in academia.
Reply With Quote
  #9883  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:41 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 17,852

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
It receives a lot of tax money.
Tax money that could have been poured into the military industrial complex.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #9884  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:45 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Tax money that could have been poured into the military industrial complex.
The higher education industrial complex!

I would rather support people in war zones than pay for paper mill degrees or shoddy research. I think a lot of people would.

I even think the DoD R&D is more fruitful than some of the studies we fund at big universities. It is more focused on natural sciences so we get things like the internet.
Reply With Quote
  #9885  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:54 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,001

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
It receives a lot of tax money. It is the way the government does it I think that promotes a lot of the corruption you see in academia.
Because it is good to invest in an educated population.

I think you overestimate the corruption because you hate liberals and think they are selfish and lazy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
The higher education industrial complex!

I would rather support people in war zones than pay for paper mill degrees or shoddy research. I think a lot of people would.

I even think the DoD R&D is more fruitful than some of the studies we fund at big universities. It is more focused on natural sciences so we get things like the internet.

Just because it doesn't support your worldview doesn't mean the research is shoddy.

You're comparing apple's and oranges there. The DoD makes different things for different reasons than public universities.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #9886  
Old 05-19-2017, 09:59 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 17,852

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
You're comparing apple's and oranges there. The DoD makes different things for different reasons than public universities.
That was me, actually.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #9887  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:00 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Because it is good to invest in an educated population.

I think you overestimate the corruption because you hate liberals and think they are selfish and lazy.
A lot of people that come out of academia weren't educated in a meaningful or useful way.

I think you got that mixed up. I saw the corruption and hubris of academia and became more conservative.
Quote:
Just because it doesn't support your worldview doesn't mean the research is shoddy.

You're comparing apple's and oranges there. The DoD makes different things for different reasons than public universities.
I don't think research that only serves to placate the source of public funding is worthy of public investment. It needs more scrutiny and congressional input.

A lot of those things end up benefiting everyone because it is focused more on STEM and instead of being a black hole there is a sense of purpose and determination. That is why you see these big inventions come from there. It is the same reason I support NASA so much.
Reply With Quote
  #9888  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:12 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,001

Default

@Anansi: Whups


Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
A lot of people that come out of academia weren't educated in a meaningful or useful way.

I think you got that mixed up. I saw the corruption and hubris of academia and became more conservative.


I don't think research that only serves to placate the source of public funding is worthy of public investment.

It needs more scrutiny and congressional input.

A lot of those things end up benefiting everyone because it is focused more on STEM and instead of being a black hole there is a sense of purpose and determination. That is why you see these big inventions come from there. It is the same reason I support NASA so much.
1. Elaborate.


2. I saw the corruption and hubris of businesses and republicans and became more liberal.


3. Neither do I, good thing that's not what most research does.

Again, you seem to hate bureaucracy but don't understand how congress cannot review every little thing, it would slow government to a crawl.

4. So do lots of other kinds of research, it is not just STEM that helps people.

Maybe you should look at who NASA supports.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #9889  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:14 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 17,852

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
A lot of people that come out of academia weren't educated in a meaningful or useful way.
I'm very sympathetic to people who study the world around them for its own sake. Intellectual curiosity is a virtue, in my opinion, even if it doesn't lead to something your military friends can use.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #9890  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:19 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Elaborate.
They can't really offer any sort of utility to society. It is more like an indoctrination. If you have to live your life by using the government to coerce people to take care of you I don't think you invested in yourself properly.

There is an opportunity cost here. I think a lot of people would be smarter and better off if they spent those four years and money doing something else. You can learn through experiences just as well as you can learn in a classroom about the kind of things you are talking about. Stop pretending there is only one way to learn about the world.
Quote:
2. I saw the corruption and hubris of businesses and republicans and became more liberal.
Okay...
Quote:
3. Neither do I, good thing that's not what most research does.
A lot of it is pretty arbitrary in its findings. You can't control variables very well so they come to conclusions that support the polices their political masters want. There needs to be diversity of thought and accountability to make sure it acts in the public interest.
Quote:
Again, you seem to hate bureaucracy but don't understand how congress cannot review every little thing, it would slow government to a crawl.
It would make it more accountable though. Why even use government at all if it is unaccountable? What makes it different than a more powerful monopoly?
Quote:
4. So do lots of other kinds of research, it is not just STEM that helps people.
A lot of research is really self-serving. It is thinly masked propaganda. It is just one big circle jerk.
Quote:
Maybe you should look at who NASA supports.
NASA is mostly STEM.
Reply With Quote
  #9891  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:24 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 17,852

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
NASA is mostly STEM.
I think he means who they support politically.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #9892  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:26 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I think he means who they support politically.
No one? Do you know who created NASA?
Reply With Quote
  #9893  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:27 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,001

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
They can't really offer any sort of utility to society. It is more like an indoctrination. If you have to live your life by using the government to coerce people to take care of you I don't think you invested in yourself properly.

There is an opportunity cost here. I think a lot of people would be smarter and better off if they spent those four years and money doing something else. You can learn through experiences just as well as you can learn in a classroom about the kind of things you are talking about. Stop pretending there is only one way to learn about the world.

Okay...

A lot of it is pretty arbitrary in its findings. You can't control variables very well so they come to conclusions that support the polices their political masters want. There needs to be diversity of thought and accountability to make sure it acts in the public interest.

It would make it more accountable though. Why even use government at all if it is unaccountable? What makes it different than a more powerful monopoly?

A lot of research is really self-serving. It is thinly masked propaganda. It is just one big circle jerk.


NASA is mostly STEM.
1. That is not evidence that is just you looking down on the arts. It is not indoctrination and you're conflating them with supporting aid to the poor and homeless and such.

2. It feels like if things were that way people would only learn to be laborers and not have any critical thinking skills to question the companies they work for.

3. You are just making things up and not offering evidence, claiming the research is not good is not enough, you have to give examples.

4. The fact that politicians rotate out when voted on whereas companies do not. Government is inherently more responsible to the people.

5. Again, you are just making things up because you don't like the research results without any evidence.

6. But have you looked at their politics or what they believe, not just what they do?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #9894  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:32 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

Elune
miffy23's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 10,096
BattleTag: miffy#1110

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You don't fascinate me. You just make me sad and perplexed. Your ideas are so out there and don't make much sense but you are really proud for having them. Condescension isn't a substitute for substance.
You have yet to put forward a single counter-argument rooted in actual reasoning on your behalf to anything I've ever posted as far as I can recall, so excuse me if I don't really take your attitude to heart. Your continuing attempts at sidestepping into assumptions of a personal nature don't really help your cause.
__________________
El. Psy. Congroo.
Reply With Quote
  #9895  
Old 05-19-2017, 11:48 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 20,920

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
To a certain degree, yes. However, I specifically mentioned the far right because there is virtually no fact-based anything on that side. You can argue that the far left has utopian ideas, but they are nontheless based on reasoning. Xenophobia and ultranationalism are not rooted in anything but irrationalism and herd mentality.

It is definitely true that this social behaviour applies to everyone in various degrees, unless one simply detaches from all online interaction. But it is specifically the far right that most benefits from the exclusion of contradictory information - it is the modern day version of leaflet propaganda. A target audience that has no access to other information - whether by choice or by circumstance - is most easily influenced.

The social justice bubble is definitely a prime example of this behaviourism as well.
Since the Social Justice bubble is the far left, there is literally no reason for the far right being singled out as you did, other than to massage your ego and try and convince yourself both sides arent piles of shit striving to force their ideals onto other people who dont share them.

Both sides are unreasoning, unintelligent, fuckshits, and the left isnt somehow less so.

Dont be a twat and try and single out the far right as a way to make the left look better
__________________
All hail the Queen.
Reply With Quote
  #9896  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:05 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 7,880

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You just make me sad and perplexed. Your ideas are so out there and don't make much sense but you are really proud for having them. Condescension isn't a substitute for substance.
I just want to save this and reply to you with it later.
__________________

Last edited by Kakwakas; 05-19-2017 at 12:10 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #9897  
Old 05-19-2017, 04:16 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. That is not evidence that is just you looking down on the arts. It is not indoctrination and you're conflating them with supporting aid to the poor and homeless and such.

2. It feels like if things were that way people would only learn to be laborers and not have any critical thinking skills to question the companies they work for.

3. You are just making things up and not offering evidence, claiming the research is not good is not enough, you have to give examples.

4. The fact that politicians rotate out when voted on whereas companies do not. Government is inherently more responsible to the people.

5. Again, you are just making things up because you don't like the research results without any evidence.

6. But have you looked at their politics or what they believe, not just what they do?
I don't think you know what evidence is Mutterscrawl. Just because something doesn't agree with you doesn't mean it is unfounded. That is kind of the point I am making though. It is a circle jerk that doesn't listen to anyone else until they come pounding at their door.

Student loan debt is tremendous and many people either don't graduate or end up with a degree that isn't very useful. I am not buying your reasoning that those degrees imbue people with a special kind of critical thinking skills and I think it does the exact opposite. Ideologically homogeneity is extremely high and there is hostility to challenging voices. That is the opposite of critical thinking.

But really this is pretty absurd on its face. I know for some people it is fun to look down on others for no reason but how do these majors make people better thinkers than ones without them? Do you think people can't be artists without a $40,000 paper that says they can? You say it helps them question business but they never question government or academia. It isn't business that signs their paycheck. It is the government and business needs to be taxed to get that revenue. The demonization becomes necessary to get more of it.

They aren't the only ones who care about the poor. You might as well give people a religious education if that is your concern because religion is responsible for far more charity and volunteerism. I would argue that their method for alleviating poverty doesn't even work and large sums of that cash flow goes back to academic faculty and government workers. It comes in the form of grants and contracts. This is where a government contract becomes a substitute for intellectual curiosity.

You can't pretend that government is more responsive to the people when you hate the party in control right now. You can vote with your wallet when it comes to businesses. You don't have to work for them or buy from them if you don't want to. With the government that isn't the case. The presidential race comes down to two people and the winner many times doesn't even get half of the vote. The executive branch has become so powerful that that single race every four years has become too influential. In the other thread you simply fought against more accountability. The government is a monopoly and a collective choice between two options every four years is hardly accountability.

The gender wage gap uses spurious logic. So does the study that says the US is a oligarchy. When there is a financial incentive to produce results someone wants it became necessary to rig the studies to produce these specific results. These results are repeatable. Anyone could go out and refute them but they wouldn't receive as much grants and subsidies. This is why the lack of diversity in the social science is a bad thing. It creates a circle jerk. Out of all the disciplines this one needs people with different views giving each other feedback. Outside forces need to be able to pull the plug if they become their own special interest group because right now it is just government sponsored propaganda.

NASA was created by a Republican. The Republicans don't criticize NASA unless they want to divert climate change funding to space exploration. These agencies are supposed to be apolitical. I am not sure what kind of "What they believe," you are referring to. It certainly isn't this...

Neil Armstrong blasts Obama’s ‘devastating’ Nasa cuts
Reply With Quote
  #9898  
Old 05-19-2017, 04:56 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 17,852

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I don't think you know what evidence is Mutterscrawl.
That sure is an unhelpful thing to say.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #9899  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:01 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
That sure is an unhelpful thing to say.
Neither is accusing me of malice so many times and telling me "That isn't evidence!"
Reply With Quote
  #9900  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:10 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,440

Default

I've found that agreeing to disagree can be very useful once it's clear that an argument can't be settled by conventional means. Of course, you could also opt for mak'gora.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
realspace, serious business

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.