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Old 08-23-2016, 09:40 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Because we don't seem to have a general purpose Starcraft lore/gameplay/whatever thread, and because I have a question that could us such a thread. Sticky plz.

Anyway, here's a headscratcher for you all: Why does Arcturus Mengsk's theme tune borrow so heavily from old UED opera?
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Old 08-23-2016, 10:42 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Because we don't seem to have a general purpose Starcraft lore/gameplay/whatever thread, and because I have a question that could us such a thread. Sticky plz.

Anyway, here's a headscratcher for you all: Why does Arcturus Mengsk's theme tune borrow so heavily from old UED opera?
1. Because Blizzard reuses things even when it doesn't really make sense to.

2. Because it's to emphasize how both are old-fashioned in their political views and stuck on the importance of humanity but really just use it as a front to control others without actually caring about humanity in anything but the broadest concept.

Sort of like how Garrosh loved 'the horde', but made the horde miserable, he had this concept of how the horde should be and that was more important to him than people actually being happy.

Same with Arcturus, he had a view of himself, his life, his family, ruling a prosperous human empire, whether the people LIVING in it are actually any better off is unimportant, same with UED, the Koprulu sector people are 'lost children' to them that need to be saved and brought in line, but they worked to accomplish that through brutal military conquest and didn't really CARE about the people they're ostensibly helping to bring back into the fold. What mattered was humanity is united, not what was BEST for the dominion / koprulu sector.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:08 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I actually really liked the music used for the Terran endgame cinematic in the original Starcraft. The more American sound fit better with the Koprulu Terrans.
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:51 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I actually think the overall idea of SC2 (Kerrigan's redemption, Amon and the Xel'Naga) actually was solid in concept. Genya accurately pointed out that it's possible to argue that the infestation would have supressed things like empathy and compassion and given that Kerrigan did have clear moral standards and a desire to do the right thing (she's appalled at the idea of using the zerg even on the people who wronged her and the tarsonis debacle could be explained as misguided belief Mengsk would ultimately save civilians or deal with the zerg when the old families were gone or belief the protoss would leave fewer survivors) I can buy that she'd be angry and more violent after betrayal and infestation but NOT being as sadistic as she was in BW.

As someone else wisely pointed out

"Right at the beginning you rightfully find Kerrigan to be a complex character. Now why would a complex human, given great powers, immediately turn into a comicbook super villain? Even if we accept your claim that the mind of the being that was the Queen of Blades was not mostly the work of the Overmind and still very much the human being Sarah Kerrigan, why would she completely forsake the possibility of salvation, the hope of ever experiencing affection or love again? If she always was the psychotic being you make her out to be she wouldn't have been able to experience a connection with Jim - and even the loyalty and devotion to Mengsk, who pretty much was a father figure for her.
Now I understand the fascination with the brood war character, she certainly was a badass villain, but what I'm trying to say is that Blizzard is not far off the road here, that this is not the work of "evil new bliz" but very much attached to the sc1 storywork already. The salvation comes of course in the unlucky form of a deus ex machina plot device, yet Kerrigans transformation is absolutely believable. There she is again, the young woman that experienced deep distress on Antiga prime, facing the ethical conflict between sacrificing millions of lives and the command of her savior who (apparently) always knows whats best and cares deeply about her. That is not the reaction of a cold blooded killer.

And this young woman clearly was in love with Raynor pretty much from the beginning. While it is not untrue to say that it was always only implied, it was still completely obvious. Even the Queen of Blades saved his life multiple times or at least spared him, unlike the case of Mengsk as an act of sadism, but one of affection. In these acts the thirst for vengeance against Mengsk was also cleary visibile, which strengthens the assumption that we're dealing with a complex being, not a suddenly-turned-god with no mundane feelings/interests altogether. Why would this being, presented a chance at living something like a normal life instead of a hunted, lonely one, instantly start plotting again, and to what end?"

Even if you don't agree with her being in love with Raynor she certainly CARED for him (she defied the overmind's orders when she let him go in Agent of the Swarm, and only really felt weary AFTER he called her out.) Having it be that the infestation amplified her inner darkness and suppressed compassion and empathy doesn't take away her agency so it's fine. The only problem is that up until the Moros Kerrigan is pretty nasty. She has believable reasons (she's lost her chance at normalcy and revenge is all she has) and she does show humanity even before jim turns out to be alive after all. What's more, originally Kerrigan would have become friends with Lassara (if blizcon 2011 is to be believed). Had they gone that route, given her more scenes with zeratul, have her openly express regret for her crimes more frequently I think that the redemption arc would be solid. She's pretty nice in Legacy of the Void and the fact that Valerian didn't really offer her anything during the Korhal invasion combined with her genuine shock when Raynor helps it's safe to say that her decision to spare the people was a genuine desire to do what was right rather than desire to please Jimmy.

Amon and the Xel'Naga were also not terrible. Amon's meant to be a lucifer figure and in a way his rhetoric of "breaking the cycle" masking his true desire (he was unwilling to bear the burden that came with being a god and when he couldn't back out he tried to back out he blamed the Xel'Naga) of hate and pride works on that score. Even the reveal that HE was the one who uplifted the Protoss is actually kinda cool. It's a major curveball but given that Amon and his faction WERE xel'naga it doesn't actually violate the lore that much.

In a way he's a dark mirror of Kerrigan and Artanis. Like Kerrigan when he found himself a pawn he tried to smash the board, but unlike both (they were willing to accept the burdens of power and leadership) Amon was unwilling to and basically blamed the Xel'naga rather than taking responsibility.

That's a pretty cool concept actually.

The Prophecy is rather convoluted and needs to be addressed but overall the Dark force on the horizon plus Kerrigan's redemption is sound.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:21 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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There's something I was pondering the other day about the Xel'naga and what Amon's involvement in the creation of the protoss and zerg could mean.

The protoss and zerg were "falsely" elevated by Amon. They were fabricated against the plan of the Xel'naga, who were fundamentally against directly manipulating the evolution of the life they seeded throughout the galaxy beyond its most basic initiation. The Xel'naga were staunch believers in allowing the evolution to occur on its own, without tampering.

And it did. Repeatedly. Tons of times. Over and over again, two races reached a state of pure essence and pure form, encountered each other, and united to become the new Xel'naga. As infinitesimally huge as the odds were against it when accounting for the scope of an entire galaxy, this cycle that the Xel'naga basically had running on autopilot kept on happening.

So Amon failed to stop it. The hybrid and zerg never overran the whole galaxy, consuming everything and ending the cycle. And since the Xel'naga didn't involve themselves in the intermediary development of the intended races, the cycle would have still been going even after they were killed. It wasn't halted without them, because it was already continuing without them.

Which means theoretically, somewhere out there, two other races are likely evolving toward a purity of essence and of form, only naturally instead of artificially as was done to the zerg and protoss.

And nothing says they started from scratch every time, either. They didn't wipe the slate clean and purge the prior seeding efforts during each cycle, meaning there could feasibly be species in the galaxy that have been evolving and changing since the very first time. Somewhere out there, any number of other alien species could still be moving toward becoming that next potential incarnation of the Xel'naga, at infinitely various rates and along countless paths. There could be races out there with a mastery of psionic power which completely dwarfs that of the protoss, or species whose rate and range of adaptability would put that of the zerg to shame.

In fact, even if he'd won in LotV, how certain was the success of Amon's ultimate plan? It was pretty much completely dependent upon a certainty that the hybrid-led zerg were the ultimate threat to all other forms of life. Yet the Xel'naga supposedly ran around seeding countless planets with the beginnings of life throughout the galaxy. That's a lot of potential worlds that could have produced any number of species both imaginable and unimaginable.

Earth, Zerus, Aiur, and the Koprulu Sector add up to a combined minuscule portion of the galaxy's total size. If just the protoss, terrans and zerg managed to stop Amon, who's to say his goal of consuming and destroying all life wouldn't have swiftly led him and his hybrid crashing against even more powerful species that didn't evolve along the criteria that Amon deliberately engineered into the protoss and zerg so he could use their "designs" against them?

Last edited by ARM3481; 08-25-2016 at 12:23 AM..
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:37 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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There's something I was pondering the other day about the Xel'naga and what Amon's involvement in the creation of the protoss and zerg could mean.

The protoss and zerg were "falsely" elevated by Amon. They were fabricated against the plan of the Xel'naga, who were fundamentally against directly manipulating the evolution of the life they seeded throughout the galaxy beyond its most basic initiation. The Xel'naga were staunch believers in allowing the evolution to occur on its own, without tampering.

And it did. Repeatedly. Tons of times. Over and over again, two races reached a state of pure essence and pure form, encountered each other, and united to become the new Xel'naga. As infinitesimally huge as the odds were against it when accounting for the scope of an entire galaxy, this cycle that the Xel'naga basically had running on autopilot kept on happening.

So Amon failed to stop it. The hybrid and zerg never overran the whole galaxy, consuming everything and ending the cycle. And since the Xel'naga didn't involve themselves in the intermediary development of the intended races, the cycle would have still been going even after they were killed. It wasn't halted without them, because it was already continuing without them.

Which means theoretically, somewhere out there, two other races are likely evolving toward a purity of essence and of form, only naturally instead of artificially as was done to the zerg and protoss.

And nothing says they started from scratch every time, either. They didn't wipe the slate clean and purge the prior seeding efforts during each cycle, meaning there could feasibly be species in the galaxy that have been evolving and changing since the very first time. Somewhere out there, any number of other alien species could still be moving toward becoming that next potential incarnation of the Xel'naga, at infinitely various rates and along countless paths. There could be races out there with a mastery of psionic power which completely dwarfs that of the protoss, or species whose rate and range of adaptability would put that of the zerg to shame.

In fact, even if he'd won in LotV, how certain was the success of Amon's ultimate plan? It was pretty much completely dependent upon a certainty that the hybrid-led zerg were the ultimate threat to all other forms of life. Yet the Xel'naga supposedly ran around seeding countless planets with the beginnings of life throughout the galaxy. That's a lot of potential worlds that could have produced any number of species both imaginable and unimaginable.

Earth, Zerus, Aiur, and the Koprulu Sector add up to a combined minuscule portion of the galaxy's total size. If just the protoss, terrans and zerg managed to stop Amon, who's to say his goal of consuming and destroying all life wouldn't have swiftly led him and his hybrid crashing against even more powerful species that didn't evolve along the criteria that Amon deliberately engineered into the protoss and zerg so he could use their "designs" against them?
Yeah, a lot of the story falls apart upon closer inspection. I don't remember if they gave any reason for wanting one species with purity of form, and another with purity of essence, but it's hard to imagine a hypothetical reason being any good.

Regarding Mengsk using UED music—UED culture would not be well-known to the average citizen of the Dominion. I can see Mengsk appropriating aspects of the UED (which seemed to do the whole authoritarian thing a lot more successfully than the Confederacy) in order to create a kind of national culture. It has the kind of grandiose quality that a dictator would appreciate.

Korhal culture, filtered through UED, with bits of the old Confederacy.
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Old 08-25-2016, 06:55 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
I actually think the overall idea of SC2 (Kerrigan's redemption, Amon and the Xel'Naga) actually was solid in concept.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:02 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Anyway, here's a headscratcher for you all: Why does Arcturus Mengsk's theme tune borrow so heavily from old UED opera?
It's an aria about how we should honor the abandoned and forgotten soldier.

So it suited both scenes where it's played.

...it was way MORE suited to that guy we knew nothing about from Brood War, but that's neither here nor there.
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