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  #226  
Old 04-17-2017, 07:46 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
I think it's more about Illidan's fans relentlessly demanding a "redemption" arc for him, coupled with Blizzard's total and utter inability to write a proper redemption arc.

Cue fangirling Naaru, which I still hope is going to be revealed as a KJ plot later on.
Whoever asked for a "redemption" arc, other than Metzen himself?

I am of the opinion that the characters "fighting fire with fire" don't really need redemption as such, and it was the clumsy way of showing lore in TBC that led to them turning into loot pinatas. Which is why I also disliked the Naaru, associated with that raid content. But, it seems that whoever's writing Illidan's overall story, thinks that true redemption must come from the Holy Light, and stay justified by said Holy Light.
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  #227  
Old 04-17-2017, 08:02 AM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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He is being shoved in our faces with extreme prejudice, we are being shamed for ever opposing him in any way and there's a blatant recon going on to try to save his "reputation".

It's effectively the same thing.
No, no it really isn't. He's not being portrayed as a good guy, and I only see one character (Xe'ra) who is trying to cover up/excuse his extreme actions.

It would be like saying that Thrall was being whitewashed during Cataclysm because of how he was shoved in our faces and how anyone who opposed him was considered wrong.
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  #228  
Old 04-17-2017, 09:08 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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What doesn't really work is why all of his councilors and allies were not able to communicate Illidan's righteous goals to other factions. Why Akama never really trusted him, even after hearing of his true plans. Why the Horde attacked him too, when they had little gain in the matters of Draenei and Naaru.
Perhaps they tried and failed? Perhaps the messengers were assassinated by the Legion? After all, we know Kil'jaeden was trying to push us against Illidan.

Or perhaps the blood elves simply reviled the Horde. They weren't in Quel'Thalas and hadn't seen what the Horde (well, the Forsaken) had done for them - they were powerful on Outland, they did not need the Horde. Thus, to them, the Horde could very well still be a hated enemy.

As for Akama, I see it as him being absolutely traumatized by everything that happened to him: he is no longer thinking in a forgiving manner. He could not see beyond Illidan's demonic form. He wanted Karabor cleansed. Instead, Illidan filled it with demons. If Altruis is canon in Legion, then he eventually does come around.

----------

As for Xe'ra, that is one character whose motives and experiences we don't understand and with their own point of view. If they're an Illidan fannaaru, what of it?

Last edited by Ethenil; 04-17-2017 at 09:11 AM..
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  #229  
Old 04-17-2017, 10:14 AM
Krainz Krainz is online now

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
As for Xe'ra, that is one character whose motives and experiences we don't understand and with their own point of view. If they're an Illidan fannaaru, what of it?
The problem is naaru being the messengers of the Holy Light, of all that's sacred and divine.

Not even that, actually. The problem is said messenger of the Holy Light, all that's sacred and divine, saying that Illidan didn't do nothing wrong. And by wrong I say on the standards of such Holy Light.

inb4 Illidan fits the characterization of a Retribution Paladin
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  #230  
Old 04-17-2017, 11:48 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Perhaps they tried and failed? Perhaps the messengers were assassinated by the Legion? After all, we know Kil'jaeden was trying to push us against Illidan.

Or perhaps the blood elves simply reviled the Horde. They weren't in Quel'Thalas and hadn't seen what the Horde (well, the Forsaken) had done for them - they were powerful on Outland, they did not need the Horde. Thus, to them, the Horde could very well still be a hated enemy.
I'm not sure about Illidan-loyal elves, but Kael's faction was definitely up to date about them joining the Horde. One of the final TBC quests even implied correspondence between Thrall and Kael (regarding whether there were still living orcs on Draenor), though the elves hid the info that they were talking about fel orcs.

Really, one of the worst part of Horde experience in TBC was this abrupt shift in storyline somewhere between Zangarmarsh and Shattrath. There was never any big "revelation" that would make them hostile to Kael's elves, they're just suddenly considered enemies in the Terrokar settlement questlines. Prior to that, the Horde heroes would get quests from the very much pro-Kael blood elven settlement in Hellfire Peninsula about defiling draenei tombs and gathering demon blood from fel fiends.

For all the faults of later expansions, at least they mostly followed cause and effect in storylines (though Cataclysm's zone ones often ended abruptly), while TBC ones pretty much had you gallivant from one zone to another, suddenly finding Shattrath and deciding to become their greatest ally.

Which would have been fine for a Paladin playthrough, but for an elven/orcish Warlock? Eh.

TBC made me feel manipulated by random forces I didn't care about, but couldn't really refuse. I was immediately supposed to side with and trust Draenei gods, Draenei politicians, Elven deserters, These Particular Birdpeople, and so on, when certain "evil factions" weren't much worse from the Horde's own blood elves and Forsaken.

KJ pulling a gambit and playing divide et impera is an interesting handwave to those stories and the lack of communication... But, I don't get how was he able to manipulate A'dal and the Naaru, if they are supposed to be so pure and all-knowing. King shouldn't have A'dal refuse Maiev on the basis of Illidan "not being so bad", but then attack him anyway just because he couldn't see past Kael's blackflag attack. Worse, given that Kael is described as being defeated prior to Illidan's fall, the Naaru should have seen Kael's image warning them about the wrath of KJ at the end of his questline. They should have known Kael wasn't working for Illidan anymore.
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  #231  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:08 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
KJ pulling a gambit and playing divide et impera is an interesting handwave to those stories and the lack of communication... But, I don't get how was he able to manipulate A'dal and the Naaru, if they are supposed to be so pure and all-knowing. King shouldn't have A'dal refuse Maiev on the basis of Illidan "not being so bad", but then attack him anyway just because he couldn't see past Kael's blackflag attack. Worse, given that Kael is described as being defeated prior to Illidan's fall, the Naaru should have seen Kael's image warning them about the wrath of KJ at the end of his questline. They should have known Kael wasn't working for Illidan anymore.
For this reason I've speculated that the naaru might have turned on Illidan because he was moving too quickly and too independently by alienating so many potential allies, dooming his plan to fail as it stood with only him and his Illidari involved, and said failure would just make things worse by handing a forewarned Legion an entire army of demon hunters to torture, corrupt and use against the rest of the universe.

Legion is arguably giving us the makings to execute parts of Illidan's plan with the rest of Azeroth's champions backing it up, instead of Illidan's forces alone looking to get the drop on Kil'jaeden when the attack on Nathreza had already tipped off the Deceiver to what they intended.

It's just a little too convenient timing-wise that right after the raid on the dreadlords, the Legion deliberately goaded Azeroth into invading Outland. Like perhaps Kil'jaeden opted to outsource Illidan's defeat to the unwitting Alliance and Horde because the Legion itself attacking Illidan en masse would have compelled him to heavily revise his plans. Illidan's overall pretty dismissive and contemptuous of any threat posed by anything that isn't the Legion, so he'd have felt confident enough to keep pressing onward with his original scheme even as we marched across Outland and kicked in his gates, even to the point of potentially rushing headlong into a trap on Argus. Our impending approach would have made Illidan hurry enough to get reckless, but not enough to pull up stakes and start something new somewhere else.

The naaru could have realized that and decided the only way to keep Illidan from altering his timetable and inadvertently delivering himself to the Legion was to help us expedite his defeat in Outland.

Last edited by ARM3481; 04-17-2017 at 12:10 PM..
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  #232  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:15 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I think it's possible Xe'ra actually wanted for Illidan to die there, and come back later. It could very well be something they planned.

But hey, I don't think Xe'ra ever said Illidan did 'nothing wrong' either, that's entirely your interpretation.
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  #233  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:21 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
For this reason I've speculated that the naaru might have turned on Illidan because he was moving too quickly and too independently by alienating so many potential allies, dooming his plan to fail as it stood with only him and his Illidari involved, and said failure would just make things worse by handing a forewarned Legion an entire army of demon hunters to torture, corrupt and use against the rest of the universe.
In TBC - yes, he was moving too quickly because he wanted to control the whole of Outland.

In "Illidan" he doesn't care about the rest of his empire after he secures Magtheridon as a source of new fel orcs. As far as this book goes, he wasn't fighting anyone except for the Legion Invasion Camps at his backyard.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Legion is arguably giving us the makings to execute parts of Illidan's plan with the rest of Azeroth's champions backing it up, instead of Illidan's forces alone looking to get the drop on Kil'jaeden when the attack on Nathreza had already tipped off the Deceiver to what they intended.

It's just a little too convenient timing-wise that right after the raid on the dreadlords, the Legion deliberately goaded Azeroth into invading Outland. Like perhaps Kil'jaeden opted to outsource Illidan's defeat to the unwitting Alliance and Horde because the Legion itself attacking Illidan en masse would have compelled him to heavily revise his plans. Illidan's overall pretty dismissive and contemptuous of any threat posed by anything that isn't the Legion, so he'd have felt confident enough to keep pressing onward with his original scheme even as we marched across Outland and kicked in his gates, even to the point of potentially rushing headlong into a trap on Argus.
Very much possible. Wouldn't even be surprised if KJ intended for Velen to escape him and join the Alliance JUST so that the Draenei could goad them into Outland and cry for the injustice that elves and orcs commited against them there. Goading everybody into war, and eliminating the forces of traitorous wildcards like Illidan and Kael - after all, Kael ended up much more useful to KJ after his main Sunfury army was destroyed, then when he was able to mine Netherstorm for mana and, theoretically, run back to Azeroth with that mana any time he wanted.

...You know, the plot of TBC becomes immensely more satisfying if it's indeed part of Kil'Jaeden's gambit to have the mortals who could potentially challenge or betray him fight each other instead. Again, makes the Naaru foolish, but eh.

Although it still doesn't explain much about how the Horde ended up in the Draenei coalition, but, theirs was pretty much an ancillary plot, except for getting to meet the Mag'har and the Mok'Nathal.

I mean, couldn't have Blizzard at least added some quest about Thrall ordering the MCs to listen to A'dal's commands and thus atone for the Horde's sins? Something other than fighting Alliance for random towers in Hellfire.
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  #234  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:26 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Yeah, TBC is a very weird experience for a horde character.

In general, Shattrath does not feel like a neutral faction. Velen is the head of the draenei priesthood, which are supposed to be the Aldor. The naaru are empowering the draenei capital, and are their objects of spiritual reverence, while slobbering (albeit accidentally) on the souls of revered orcish ancestors. Not to mention that one quest where you're asked to asked to go murder people because they refused to turn to the Light.

The Zangarmarsh and the Blade's Edge Mountains also feel somewhat off, with mirrored quests that don't make a lot of sense (stopping the ogres from cutting a path to the troll settlement, despite the fact that the path is clearly being cut towards the Draenei settlement), a ton of meaningless filler (even by the standards of collecting bear asses), a number of truly bizarre quests, odd inconsistencies in the faction relations, and having concepts that are both comparatively lacking in execution and underwhelming in-and-of-themselves.

Like with vanilla, WoD and Cata, I can only presume that there was a massive rejiggering of planned content at one point or another (did we ever learn the extent of the plans for the other side of the portals?), and the end expansion was the result of trying to build around the things that were already there.
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  #235  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:43 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Like with vanilla, WoD and Cata, I can only presume that there was a massive rejiggering of planned content at one point or another (did we ever learn the extent of the plans for the other side of the portals?), and the end expansion was the result of trying to build around the things that were already there.
Ramses, I really love how you reviewed those inconsistencies about Cata areas, could you do the same for TBC?
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  #236  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:46 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Ramses, I really love how you reviewed those inconsistencies about Cata areas, could you do the same for TBC?
I never even finished the Cata ones, but I suppose if I have time at some point I could give it a shot.

It's not like I'll ever actually finish that Garrosh post. Man, I started writing on that when he was still alive.
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  #237  
Old 04-17-2017, 01:02 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I never even finished the Cata ones, but I suppose if I have time at some point I could give it a shot.

It's not like I'll ever actually finish that Garrosh post. Man, I started writing on that when he was still alive.
Could you release what you've already written on the Twilight Highlands anyway?
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  #238  
Old 04-17-2017, 04:11 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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What was original Cataclysm supposed to look like?
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  #239  
Old 04-18-2017, 03:23 AM
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Yeah, TBC is a very weird experience for a horde character.

In general, Shattrath does not feel like a neutral faction. Velen is the head of the draenei priesthood, which are supposed to be the Aldor. The naaru are empowering the draenei capital, and are their objects of spiritual reverence, while slobbering (albeit accidentally) on the souls of revered orcish ancestors. Not to mention that one quest where you're asked to asked to go murder people because they refused to turn to the Light.

The Zangarmarsh and the Blade's Edge Mountains also feel somewhat off, with mirrored quests that don't make a lot of sense (stopping the ogres from cutting a path to the troll settlement, despite the fact that the path is clearly being cut towards the Draenei settlement), a ton of meaningless filler (even by the standards of collecting bear asses), a number of truly bizarre quests, odd inconsistencies in the faction relations, and having concepts that are both comparatively lacking in execution and underwhelming in-and-of-themselves.

Like with vanilla, WoD and Cata, I can only presume that there was a massive rejiggering of planned content at one point or another (did we ever learn the extent of the plans for the other side of the portals?), and the end expansion was the result of trying to build around the things that were already there.
In fairness, I think TBC should always be looked at as a product of it's time. A time when there were still a lot of MMOs around, and many were doing well if not at WoW's level. Blizzard, to their credit (and this is something I've always said going back to the time, and have never changed my mind on) didn't start doing what many other MMOs had done and shitting out expansions quickly. TBC was, as I recall, released over 2 YEARS after Vanilla WoW. For the time/market, that was remarkable.

But the issue was I don't think, when they DID decide to press forward with the expansion (that obviously turned into TBC), they were ready for it. You can tell the jump from Vanilla Questing > TBC Questing was a vast improvement, but there were still a lot of issues with their Game Design at that time. The story was, as many of us have discussed before, a little all-over-the-place and I think it's clear they spread themselves too thin, especially with the 2.0 content.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say at this point so I'll cease rambling, but yes, TBC I remember mostly fondly but it was certainly a product of it's time and that means it was far from perfect.
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  #240  
Old 04-18-2017, 03:25 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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What was original Cataclysm supposed to look like?
Read Ramses Reviews.
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  #241  
Old 04-18-2017, 06:27 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Read Ramses Reviews.
But does he just review the zones or can he figure what was th original concept?
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