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  #51  
Old 02-20-2017, 09:58 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Except that it wasn't just "maybe we shouldn't unleash a horde of ravenous aliens on a civillian population and/or soldiers doing their jobs." It was "maybe we shouldn't unleash a horde of ravenous aliens on a civilian population and/or soldiers doing their jobs" EVEN WHEN THEY WERE FROM THE SAME ORGANIZATION THAT HAD MADE HER LIFE A LIVING NIGHTMARE FROM THE AGES OF 8 TO 18. Many people in her situation would have been gleefully on board with a plan to hurt them back regardless of whether they were civilians or not. Kerrigan didn't, and THAT speaks well of her (the fact that she was opposed using it EVEN on the people who tormented her.) Her line about "Arcturus will come around. I know he will." and "The Protoss are coming to destroy the entire planet, not just the Zerg" also provide another explanation. She thought Arcturus would evacuate the people of Korhal once the Zerg took out the Confederacy, or felt that there was some chance of survival from the Zerg.
She knows they're all going to die and that bit about the Protoss is a blatant lie. She doesn't even pretend that it isn't.

I'm not sure why you're typing in all caps. She in fact has no issue wiping out the people who were ultimately responsible for what happened to her. (She goes down to Tarsonis to ensure the deaths of the confederate leadership, she killed Rumm.) She's not above or beyond vengeance at all. I'd think she was pretty vicious (rather than actively apathetic and a big enabler) if she wanted to kill a bunch of civilians and soldiers for the sake of revenge.

Being a moralistic little girl is a bit different from being a heroic character. She's not a villain and I think Rebel Yell presents her as being very sympathetic, but she's definitely not especially moral.

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You try to, but there have been cases when someone has made a point and you've just asserted your opinion regardless of the points actually made.
Okay, apparently I need to be a little more firm about this.

I don't know why you think it's okay to make these reaching personal assertions about me over an internet debate about a video game. Stop it.

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There's a reason I accuse you of rose colored glasses. You're unwilling to turn the lens on Brood War and have gotten rather aggressive when people disagree with you about it. You rather scornfully refuse to address Genya too.
I have nothing to say to Genya. Their argument is basically 'Blizzard obviously agrees with us' as if that refutes my perspective. What the hell do I respond to that with? I disagree.

I'm tired of talking about the stupid 'everyone's an idiot!' aspect of Brood War. I don't agree with it, I've explained why about a THOUSAND times. It's a very tired conversation.

I also think it's incredibly rich that you're accusing me of being aggressive while you are CONSTANTLY confront me over this shit and bring up conversations I had YEARS ago when I had the AUDACITY to not agree with what what's-his-face on SCLegacy was saying and you think that means I was being disingenuous or something.

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Except that's not wholly true. It didn't say "She's evil because she's lonely." It was "she feels revenge is all she has left so she's going to do whatever it takes regardless of the cost. The "need a man" doesn't really hold up to inspection either. Kerrigan only went apeshit on Rumm after he murdered Somo Hung (who she cared for). And the fact she violently killed him could be seen as her getting revenge on him alone. Also, it's entirely probable that had Raynor been a woman she'd have had similar reactions; In Uprising she's drawn to Hung because he's a genuinely good person who cares for her. Raynor, like Hung, genuinely cared for her and wanted to help her. As such Kerrigan would have felt a connection. THAT'S why Raynor's memory worked to calm her; because he was one of the few people who was nice to her she couldn't just brush him off, meaning that his words had weight when they called her out. You're basically manufacturing reasons to not like her.
It's still mostly a story about a girl who's looking for someone to rescue her, and then who flips out when there isn't someone there ("let me hear your voice" is so cringe). That doesn't make it bad necessarily, but it is pretty sexist. And it's exacerbated by all the retconning in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. She's much more independent in the original game, even in Rebel Yell.

Like, I don't even dislike the idea of what happens in Heart between her and Jim if it wasn't such a preoccupation of the story, but it really isn't earned at all as far as being a follow up to Brood War. (And if you're okay with that then... more power to you I guess?)

As for manufacturing reasons: not to like who? Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan? I mean. Not liking something is a subjective thing (as opposed to thinking something's bad). But no, I don't like Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan.

If you'd like to know why:

Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan, beyond everything else I could say about the quality of the writing and the inconsistencies with Brood War Kerrigan and being a retreat of that story is that she's... boring. I don't find Heart Kerrigan emotionally engaging, she's cathartic and she flips out at the slightest thing. She spends most of the game being moon-eyed for Jim Raynor and I find it incredibly annoying. Nothing she says is particularly funny or insightful or cool. It's a lot of her being outrageously self-righteous, pedantic and didactic.

She's really over the top I guess. But while the original game was kind of campy and fun, Heart of the Swarm is so emotionally constrained and suffocating. It's over the top in a way that I find embarrassing instead of entertaining.

She's also just way too omnipresent. She's playable in every mission, she's constantly talking in every cutscene. Everything she does is some absurd moral dilemma. It's just too much. Like people complain she's a Mary Sue in Brood War but at least Brood War takes a break from her once in a while. Even if she's a looming presence through out the story.

Nothing was better for me in Legacy of the Void than when Artanis disappeared on Ulnar and we got to follow Vorazun and Alarak for like 5 minutes. (Incidentally in hindsight I probably do hate Legacy Artanis more than I hate Heart Kerrigan, though that's not saying very much.)

Then there's the whole messianic aspect. Which Legacy of the Void (mainly the epilogue) made even worse. It's lathered on so damn thick.

And just to continue my endless rant: the supporting cast is bad too. For all the foibles of how Fenix and Raynor, Zeratul and Mengsk are written in Brood War (and I think particularly Zeratul has a pretty severe personality switch from Vanilla to Brood War which gets even worse in SC2), they're at least interesting characters unlike Iszha, Zagara, Stukov and Dehaka. Who all have a single gimmick and man, do they ever stick to that gimmick through out the story. (Did you know Dehaka likes essence?)

DuGalle makes for a capable and engaging antagonist without even having to actually show up until the very end. Because hey, we spent a previous story getting to know him, we got different perspectives on what was happening which keeps things fresh. The relationship between Zeratul and Kerrigan is explored in Brood War -- even if you hate it and think it's bad and doesn't make sense hell, even if it IS bad. Heart of the Swarm instead just uses him to unload exposition and introduce a new location and move the plot along. And then he disappears into the shadows as if he was never there at all.

Overall it's just so plot heavy. And it's a really straight-forward plot at that.
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  #52  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:14 AM
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Legacy Artanis was a bit stiff but not terrible, i blame the writing and plot more than dislike him, the poor goof
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  #53  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:18 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Legacy Artanis was a bit stiff but not terrible, i blame the writing and plot more than dislike him, the poor goof
I hate... what he is more than who he is I guess. He's way more of a boyscout than I would have liked.
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  #54  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:19 AM
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I hate... what he is more than who he is I guess. He's way more of a boyscout than I would have liked.
That I'll agree with, the plot cast him as "the good guy protoss"
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  #55  
Old 02-21-2017, 07:37 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Actually, my point is more like "our opinion is a valid interpretation too" because the way you word your posts makes you seen like you're unable to understand how could anyone interpret the plot in a different than yours and that Blizz made a mistake when its OBVIOUS that mentally the Queen of Blades = normal Kerrigan.

Idk how you have defended BW before, i dont go around stalking you. In the end of the day, it doesnt change the fact that they didnt even bother testing the zerg-infested girl "without morals" (according to you) and then acted surprised when she backstabbed them, which is idiotic no matter how you spin it. If we get an "Starcraft Chronicles" i wouldnt be surprised if they add an "Kerrigan was subtly manipulating them psyonically to make them more trusting of her"
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  #56  
Old 02-21-2017, 11:40 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
Actually, my point is more like "our opinion is a valid interpretation too" because the way you word your posts makes you seen like you're unable to understand how could anyone interpret the plot in a different than yours and that Blizz made a mistake when its OBVIOUS that mentally the Queen of Blades = normal Kerrigan.

Idk how you have defended BW before, i dont go around stalking you. In the end of the day, it doesnt change the fact that they didnt even bother testing the zerg-infested girl "without morals" (according to you) and then acted surprised when she backstabbed them, which is idiotic no matter how you spin it. If we get an "Starcraft Chronicles" i wouldnt be surprised if they add an "Kerrigan was subtly manipulating them psyonically to make them more trusting of her"
I'm talking about how the story presents itself. You can have an interpretation but I think that particular interpretation is pretty unfounded in the story itself. But I mean everything I say is obviously just my subjective perspective. I'm... not sure why I have to say that.

Also: no one acted surprised that she betrayed them. Except Mengsk -- sort of. But I think that was more that Mengsk had this idea of this practical, sensible business deal that he and Kerrigan had and as long as the UED was around he could trust her to keep her end of the bargain (I also think he massively underestimated her ability to mobilize against him -- no proof for that one, though). But Fenix and Raynor pretty much spend the whole QOB campaign going 'she's probably going to betray us', but they sort of seem to have the same attitude that the UED is the bigger threat and it's worth the risk. (Though I don't think that was explained very well in the story.) But they very clearly don't trust her.

Also if you read between the lines really: Mengsk would have gotten arrested and executed by the UED if Kerrigan hadn't interfered and without her there's absolutely no way he's getting Korhal back and it's implied that Raynor and Fenix would have been overwhelmed by the feral Zerg on Aiur if she hadn't intervened.

I'm not saying you should have known that I've discussed this before, but I'm not going to bother to respond to it if I don't feel like it. I'm not obligated to respond to every point someone makes in a discussion. Eesh.
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  #57  
Old 02-21-2017, 02:35 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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"Acting surprised" is just a manner of speaking not literally being "oh kerrigan betrayed us"-surprised. In the end they didnt do shit to verify, prevent or mitigate a betrayal.

And stop giving me the "i dont have to answer to everyone!" sissy fit attitude because i didnt bring it up in first place. If in your opinion, my opinion is "unfounded in the story" that's cool and all but doesnt make yours any less unfounded in reality itself. You can argue all day and thats fine but story is already written and your perception of Kerrigan and the events surrounding her lost so its pretty useless.
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Old 02-21-2017, 04:11 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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She knows they're all going to die and that bit about the Protoss is a blatant lie. She doesn't even pretend that it isn't.

I'm not sure why you're typing in all caps. She in fact has no issue wiping out the people who were ultimately responsible for what happened to her. (She goes down to Tarsonis to ensure the deaths of the confederate leadership, she killed Rumm.) She's not above or beyond vengeance at all. I'd think she was pretty vicious (rather than actively apathetic and a big enabler) if she wanted to kill a bunch of civilians and soldiers for the sake of revenge.

Being a moralistic little girl is a bit different from being a heroic character. She's not a villain and I think Rebel Yell presents her as being very sympathetic, but she's definitely not especially moral.



Okay, apparently I need to be a little more firm about this.

I don't know why you think it's okay to make these reaching personal assertions about me over an internet debate about a video game. Stop it.



I have nothing to say to Genya. Their argument is basically 'Blizzard obviously agrees with us' as if that refutes my perspective. What the hell do I respond to that with? I disagree.

I'm tired of talking about the stupid 'everyone's an idiot!' aspect of Brood War. I don't agree with it, I've explained why about a THOUSAND times. It's a very tired conversation.

I also think it's incredibly rich that you're accusing me of being aggressive while you are CONSTANTLY confront me over this shit and bring up conversations I had YEARS ago when I had the AUDACITY to not agree with what what's-his-face on SCLegacy was saying and you think that means I was being disingenuous or something.



It's still mostly a story about a girl who's looking for someone to rescue her, and then who flips out when there isn't someone there ("let me hear your voice" is so cringe). That doesn't make it bad necessarily, but it is pretty sexist. And it's exacerbated by all the retconning in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. She's much more independent in the original game, even in Rebel Yell.

Like, I don't even dislike the idea of what happens in Heart between her and Jim if it wasn't such a preoccupation of the story, but it really isn't earned at all as far as being a follow up to Brood War. (And if you're okay with that then... more power to you I guess?)

As for manufacturing reasons: not to like who? Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan? I mean. Not liking something is a subjective thing (as opposed to thinking something's bad). But no, I don't like Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan.

If you'd like to know why:

Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan, beyond everything else I could say about the quality of the writing and the inconsistencies with Brood War Kerrigan and being a retreat of that story is that she's... boring. I don't find Heart Kerrigan emotionally engaging, she's cathartic and she flips out at the slightest thing. She spends most of the game being moon-eyed for Jim Raynor and I find it incredibly annoying. Nothing she says is particularly funny or insightful or cool. It's a lot of her being outrageously self-righteous, pedantic and didactic.

She's really over the top I guess. But while the original game was kind of campy and fun, Heart of the Swarm is so emotionally constrained and suffocating. It's over the top in a way that I find embarrassing instead of entertaining.

She's also just way too omnipresent. She's playable in every mission, she's constantly talking in every cutscene. Everything she does is some absurd moral dilemma. It's just too much. Like people complain she's a Mary Sue in Brood War but at least Brood War takes a break from her once in a while. Even if she's a looming presence through out the story.

Nothing was better for me in Legacy of the Void than when Artanis disappeared on Ulnar and we got to follow Vorazun and Alarak for like 5 minutes. (Incidentally in hindsight I probably do hate Legacy Artanis more than I hate Heart Kerrigan, though that's not saying very much.)

Then there's the whole messianic aspect. Which Legacy of the Void (mainly the epilogue) made even worse. It's lathered on so damn thick.

And just to continue my endless rant: the supporting cast is bad too. For all the foibles of how Fenix and Raynor, Zeratul and Mengsk are written in Brood War (and I think particularly Zeratul has a pretty severe personality switch from Vanilla to Brood War which gets even worse in SC2), they're at least interesting characters unlike Iszha, Zagara, Stukov and Dehaka. Who all have a single gimmick and man, do they ever stick to that gimmick through out the story. (Did you know Dehaka likes essence?)

DuGalle makes for a capable and engaging antagonist without even having to actually show up until the very end. Because hey, we spent a previous story getting to know him, we got different perspectives on what was happening which keeps things fresh. The relationship between Zeratul and Kerrigan is explored in Brood War -- even if you hate it and think it's bad and doesn't make sense hell, even if it IS bad. Heart of the Swarm instead just uses him to unload exposition and introduce a new location and move the plot along. And then he disappears into the shadows as if he was never there at all.

Overall it's just so plot heavy. And it's a really straight-forward plot at that.
1.) It's a lie she believes herself. Also when she finds out about Tarsonis she says "the Confederates on Antiga was bad enough...." showing that even months later she's still deeply upset about it. She doesn't defy Mengsk about it but she IS disturbed by it, so no she isn't interested in Revenge particularly. You're kinda reaching at this point dude.

2.) It's based on observation. There are numerous times when you've debated people and they respond and you either just repeat yourself or dodge the issue entirely.

3.) Genya's argument is more "you act as if your perspective is the one true one. Since I didn't that doesn't necessarily make it true." Translation: don't be a sanctimonious jackass and claim your interpretation is the only logical one while all others are stupid.

4.) As above THAT'S why I keep bringing them up. Not that you disagree but that you're kind of a weasel about it saying "Well that's just your opinion man." or "You are so totally wrong this is why" and completely ignore the meat of what's actually being said.

5.) The people I bring up ALSO criticize Starcraft 2. I myself have noted problems with it (fuck I posted a argument of how it could have been better written several times.). The difference is that they're consistent about it. They don't give brood war and vanilla a pass just because it was their game growing up. You do. Constantly. Many of the problems you slam Starcraft 2 for ARE in the original game as well, but you have no problem overlooking them.

6.) Except that they're trying to actually develop her to be more than "snidely whiplash." Her caring about Jim is given a perfectly believable motivation, there are instances where it takes a break (he doesn't come up on Kaldir for instance). Fuck you seem to view "displays more than one emotions or changes her mindset over the course of the game" as "mood swings." Kerrigan actually CHANGES over the course of the story, which you seem to have a problem. Rather than being "emotionally constricted and suffocating" it's exploring more. I found Kerrigan engaging enough, and that she shows actual signs of intelligence and insight.

The REAL reason I think you dislike her is that you locked into BW Kerrigan as the one true Kerrigan and hate the idea of her evolving past it. Heart tries to show more of her (and since it's HER story she has every right to be in all the cutscenes). Kerrigan undergoes more development in Heart of the Swarm than in all of Brood War and I for one applaud it.

7.) Uh they DO have character traits. Stukov is adrift and trying to find a purpose. He gains one fighting with the swarm. Za'gara learns the finer points of leadership and is being groomed to take over the swarm one day. Izsha's story was left on the cutting room floor but had it been included it probably would have dealt with issues like identity, and facing your past.

I agree that Kerrigan and Zeratul could have been better but I still feel that overall you're being kind of disingenuous in your criticism.

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  #59  
Old 02-21-2017, 04:54 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Izsha had a cut story? Do we actually know anything about it?
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Old 02-21-2017, 07:06 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Izsha had a cut story? Do we actually know anything about it?
She was going to be Amanda Haley (a Terran who got infested and her mind destroyer.) in the earlier stages (when Kerrigan facing her past was a focus) this would have come up. Kerrigan would have had to deal with that.

It was a missed opportunity and makes me feel that revenge shouldn't have been the focus as much as identity and having her face her past
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:44 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Oh i knew that. Meant the self issues and facing your past thing
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:24 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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"Acting surprised" is just a manner of speaking not literally being "oh kerrigan betrayed us"-surprised. In the end they didnt do shit to verify, prevent or mitigate a betrayal.

And stop giving me the "i dont have to answer to everyone!" sissy fit attitude because i didnt bring it up in first place. If in your opinion, my opinion is "unfounded in the story" that's cool and all but doesnt make yours any less unfounded in reality itself. You can argue all day and thats fine but story is already written and your perception of Kerrigan and the events surrounding her lost so its pretty useless.
I wasn't talking to you, though. Yoggy was acting like it was some personal insult because I didn't take the time to respond to your post when I didn't have anything I wanted to say. That's nonsense.

So to be clear: I didn't mean what I said as a personal comment towards you. I apologize if what I said was poorly worded or offensive.

But I didn't 'lose' anything. StarCraft, StarCraft: Brood War and Uprising all still exist despite them making StarCraft 2, a game which I do not like very much.

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As above THAT'S why I keep bringing them up. Not that you disagree but that you're kind of a weasel about it saying "Well that's just your opinion man." or "You are so totally wrong this is why" and completely ignore the meat of what's actually being said.
Oh heavens, I didn't say it was just your opinion. I said you were wrong. That's the essence of what a debate is. And I'm not being 'weaselly' : some of the things I say are objective facts from the game and some of them are my own personal opinions and preferences based on those facts.

Like... how is me going "I think you're wrong and here's factual evidence from the game backing up why I think that."... bad? I don't see what you see. I'm not sure why you're making this so personal. I don't take it personally if you don't like Brood War or think it's bad, you're entitled to believe whatever you want but you seem to think I'm some asshole because I don't buy into or love Kerrigan's sappy love story in Heart of the Swarm.

I asked very nicely for you to cut it out with the personal comments and you are seriously just bordering on personally harassing me at this point. It's obnoxious.

If you can't discuss this without making it so bloody personal all the time maybe you shouldn't be discussing it. Seriously.

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Except that they're trying to actually develop her to be more than "snidely whiplash." Her caring about Jim is given a perfectly believable motivation, there are instances where it takes a break (he doesn't come up on Kaldir for instance). Fuck you seem to view "displays more than one emotions or changes her mindset over the course of the game" as "mood swings." Kerrigan actually CHANGES over the course of the story, which you seem to have a problem. Rather than being "emotionally constricted and suffocating" it's exploring more. I found Kerrigan engaging enough, and that she shows actual signs of intelligence and insight.
I don't have a problem with her changing, and certainly she changed over the course of the original StarCraft (so much so you think it's unrealistic seemingly). But honestly: if I'd been writing it, my plot for WoL and HotS would probably be pretty similar.

WoL would star Jim Raynor, he'd actually be a drunk battling his personal demons, he'd find the artifact, find out it's an opportunity to either kill or save Kerrigan. It'd be a HELL of a lot more ambiguous about which he was going to do. And Tychus's arc would have actually made sense. I think I'd have integrated the events of the game more into a sort of overarching story. I'd probably have spent more time on some of the relationships and characterization and less on obscure mission gimmicks. I'd have actual twists and plot developments happen during missions not just in between them.

Mengsk would not have been such a foppish buffoon. He would have been cool, calm, collected. In control. The television broadcast would have been a minor setback and that would have been followed through on a bit more appropriately. I honestly think I'd have some missions where you see things through his perspective (if only because it's a staple of the series), but I'm not sure how to work that in.

There probably wouldn't have been quite so many goofy unfunny news scenes. Or at least they wouldn't have been quite so on the nose. Probably just cut out the newscaster characters and have them be speeches directly from Mengsk.

The confrontation between Tychus and Raynor would have probably been a little different. I think there would have been more of a lead in to it, I guess. I'm not sure exactly because I think their whole relationship is sort of all over the place. Mostly because they left all the cutscenes from the subplots they cut in the game. Wouldn't have raised a bunch of unresolved, obvious plot points with no follow up.

I would have done something entirely different with Zeratul. Probably more ambiguous and less direct. Have him warning Raynor of the impending threat (that we know to be the hybrid) but leave out all the heavy-handed prophecy stuff. I don't even hate him going back to Aiur to access the Overmind's memories necessarily, but I don't think they needed Tassadar or the switch on the Overmind being heroic at all. That was just distracting. I probably would have left in the destruction of the Protoss thing but I wouldn't have had an Amon or a Dark Voice or anything.

Heart would have been mostly a contextual thing. I think Kerrigan would be a lot more pissed and a lot less ambiguous about how she feels about being Valerian's pawn. I don't think she would have used the Zerg to teach him a lesson (she'd just bust out) and Valerian would be a far more sinister presence in the story than he was. Motivated by dreams of glory and the potential opportunity of a Zerg alliance -- this wouldn't have just been dropped after the first mission. That's way too interesting of a plot. No amnesia plotline either.

Raynor... I think would be far more guarded, cautious and nervous around Kerrigan. Not so set on his little happy adventure, island paradise with his girlfriend fantasy. There'd be more of a sense of the contention that they went through than just Raynor mostly not giving a damn that she's a murderer. Like, I wouldn't have given Kerrigan so much of the moral high ground I guess is how I'd put it.

I would have resolved the plot line with Arcturus by the halfway mark too. He'd be dead much earlier on. Rather than trying to conflate him with the Hybrid storyline. Seriously, these campaigns can have multiple acts and climaxes. Not everything has to be building to a single moment.

I wouldn't have done that absurd fake out with Raynor getting captured. I think Raynor wouldn't be nearly as significant in general honestly. I'd want the story to touch on their relationship and develop it, but I'm not sure how. It'd probably be a forgiveness story ultimately like it was, but I'd want it to be way more earned than it was. Raynor should be a harsh critic. Not her reward for nothing.

Probably wouldn't have brought back Stukov. I'm not sure he really contributes much of anything tangible to the story. I think another terran character who was one of the Moebius Foundations experiments would have been a bit more appropriate, someone who might be more of a... protegee for Kerrigan, someone younger. Stukov's really distracting.

Second section after Mengsk's death would be Kerrigan's repentence. The Protoss fleet would arrive and start their dogged pursuit of Kerrigan. I'm not sure how this could possibly end satisfyingly except with Artanis or Kerrigan killing the other, though.

Final act would probably focus more on the hybrid directly. I'm not sure how, though.

Kerrigan's arc would be more about survival. She'd have to escape the Umojan facility alone, I think she'd also be a bit more savvy about what's going on around her. I'm not sure what would drive her to kill Mengsk, since that revenge plot was such a big part of Brood War. I think I'd probably want him to be killed by his own hubris somehow. Or maybe offed by Valerian. Maybe Valerian trades information he has about the hybrid project and Moebius in exchange for Kerrigan killing Arcturus -- who has become increasingly dangerous in his eyes. Something like that. Like a weird pseudo-Manchurian Candidate plot.

I'm not sure what direction Kerrigan's interactions with Artanis would take or be. I mean I'd want them to go deeper with both characters but they don't even really have an established relationship.

Zeratul... I'm not sure what they could have done with that. But I definitely wouldn't have resolved Zeratul's hatred of Kerrigan so haphazardly. Zeratul would have been a threat to her, though. Definitely not an advisor.

I think ultimately the arc would be about Kerrigan being denied everything she'd obtained. Not her old life, but all her safety and security, all her power. The entire story would be her on the edge, constantly on the run from what's pursuing her and probably focus more directly on Narud rather than just using him as a throw away villain for that one cutscene.

I mean maybe that makes it more clear what I was looking to see from Heart of the Swarm? I doubt it, but it was worth an attempt I guess.

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She was going to be Amanda Haley (a Terran who got infested and her mind destroyer.) in the earlier stages (when Kerrigan facing her past was a focus) this would have come up. Kerrigan would have had to deal with that.

It was a missed opportunity and makes me feel that revenge shouldn't have been the focus as much as identity and having her face her past
Was that a dropped plot or just a 'fun fact'? I don't remember them saying that was going to be revealed/explored in the game at all. But I didn't really look into it much.
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Old 02-22-2017, 05:26 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I meant it's "lost" because it won't change the fact SC2 was already writtdn the way it was. The "I said you were wrong" thing is way you come off annoying and obnoxious btw. You can think that fine and dandy but in the end of the day neither him, me or Blizz isnt.

Idr where was the Amanda Hailey thing mentioned but it was never brought up again so we cant be sure its canon at all
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Old 02-22-2017, 08:12 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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The "I said you were wrong" thing is way you come off annoying and obnoxious btw.
Well I was being obnoxious on purpose. When someone calls me a weasel over something silly and starts berating me I really don't care that much how I come across.

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I meant it's "lost" because it won't change the fact SC2 was already writtdn the way it was.
But that's not what I was talking about. I wasn't saying they'd change how SC2 was written. I'm not even sure why that's relevant. My post here is more to demonstrate why I dislike it in a more tangible way and that I enjoy character development since he was accusing me of not liking that.
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Old 02-22-2017, 09:18 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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1- I'm not talking just about this recent debate. Idk or care who started it but point is you come off annoying-stupid when you post that.

2- I'm bringing that up myself. My posts arent fused to Yoggys
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:10 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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1- I'm not talking just about this recent debate. Idk or care who started it but point is you come off annoying-stupid when you post that.
All right, from now on I won't disagree with anyone then. Thanks for showing me the light.

Now if we can be done with this bloody nonsense and actually get back to discussing the game that'd be nice.
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:28 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Yes that exactly what i said. GJ Aldrius you nailed it.
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:34 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Yes that exactly what i said. GJ Aldrius you nailed it.
What the hell else could you be saying? You think me saying 'you're wrong' is smug, that's patently absurd. I get it, you think I'm full of myself. You don't actually know me, it has nothing to do with what we're debating but okay. Noted.

What else do you expect me to say? I even apologized to you and you just took that as an opportunity to make MORE personal comments about me.

What the fuck, dude?
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:13 PM
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What the hell else could you be saying? You think me saying 'you're wrong' is smug, that's patently absurd. I get it, you think I'm full of myself. You don't actually know me, it has nothing to do with what we're debating but okay. Noted.

What else do you expect me to say? I even apologized to you and you just took that as an opportunity to make MORE personal comments about me.

What the fuck, dude?
Surely you've been here long enough to realize that Genya isn't worth talking to.
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Old 02-22-2017, 01:27 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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No. Before i write anything else, I didnt say you couldnt disagree like you stated here

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All right, from now on I won't disagree with anyone then. Thanks for showing me the light.
I dont think that either me or Yoggy has said your SC1/BW interpretation is invalid, because it isnt, while on the other hand you dont even acknowledge why we might see things that way, instead just outright saying our vision is "wrong" and "unfounded in the story". Disliking or disagreeing with our views on the story is perfectly fine and normal, but (in this specific case) outright saying they are "wrong" and "unfounded in the story" when this perception aligns with SC2 story makes you sound like you have your head shoved in your ass.

When I comment on the futility of continuing this debate, i do it because; despite your views being perfectly valid without taking in account the sequel, SC2's story was written taking as basis a perception of SC1/BW plot that differs from yours (but aligns with mine) so if we made this a "Who Got It Right" contest you wouln't be the winner, as in the end, "Blizz" who is the author of the plot, saw things differently to you. Maybe it's original vision of SC1/BW aligned with yours but by 2010 or whatever SC2 got released, they saw the story from a different perspective (one that aligned with mine). That doesnt make any of them less plausible, but SC2 exists and only one is canon.

I hope you finally understood my point and i'm gonna leave it here, because you're giving me FojarXLordaeron lite vibes and i know better than to stay in one those "discussions"
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Old 02-22-2017, 01:58 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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No. Before i write anything else, I didnt say you couldnt disagree like you stated here



I dont think that either me or Yoggy has said your SC1/BW interpretation is invalid, because it isnt, while on the other hand you dont even acknowledge why we might see things that way, instead just outright saying our vision is "wrong" and "unfounded in the story". Disliking or disagreeing with our views on the story is perfectly fine and normal, but (in this specific case) outright saying they are "wrong" and "unfounded in the story" when this perception aligns with SC2 story makes you sound like you have your head shoved in your ass.

When I comment on the futility of continuing this debate, i do it because; despite your views being perfectly valid without taking in account the sequel, SC2's story was written taking as basis a perception of SC1/BW plot that differs from yours (but aligns with mine) so if we made this a "Who Got It Right" contest you wouln't be the winner, as in the end, "Blizz" who is the author of the plot, saw things differently to you. Maybe it's original vision of SC1/BW aligned with yours but by 2010 or whatever SC2 got released, they saw the story from a different perspective (one that aligned with mine). That doesnt make any of them less plausible, but SC2 exists and only one is canon.

I hope you finally understood my point and i'm gonna leave it here, because you're giving me FojarXLordaeron lite vibes and i know better than to stay in one those "discussions"
That's kinda it. Aldrius is free to his interpretation but he acts like it's the only one you can legitimately draw, which is the height of pomposity and arrogance. I disagree and feel that Kerrigan's redemption was entirely plausible based on what we see in BW and SC1; him saying you're wrong is just being a jerk.


Another issue is that on an aesthetic level it's tiring watching everything end badly. Warhammer is hard to get into because nothing good happens to the good guys; they score pyrriac victories AT BEST and very rarely do things go their way. One guy proposed a HOTS where Kerrigan is evil....and it was just grim dark nonsense that was terribly written and overly depressing. Blizzard probably realized overly grim dark was stupid and tried to add a ray of light. SC2 has moments of darkness and sadness but at the same time the good guys actually accomplish shit that sticks.

Another problem is that a lot of Brood War Fanboys are rather hypocritical. All the other guys I mentioned (Chocopaw from team liquid, Fanatic Templar) ALSO have problems with SC2. The thing is.....they're consistent. They're willing to turn the lens on the original games and point out problems in them. Drake Clawfang pointed out that many people were all for his abridged spoofing of SC2.....but didn't really care when he lampooned BW and SC1. Many of the problems in SC2 were in Brood War (in some instances they were even worse in BW) but because they grew up with it they either ignore it or make excuses for it. I kept bringing up Fanatic templar and Hawki because Aldruis either refused to answer them or made up ridiculous excuses to try to bend over backwards and ignore their points. If he wants to like BW that's his right; but he should be consistent about it and willing to turn the lens on things he likes


PS

Hell I think they realized this with Diablo 3; in that game the heroes score an unambiguous victory against Diablo rather than just unintentionally fueling his plan
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Old 02-22-2017, 04:28 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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That's kinda it. Aldrius is free to his interpretation but he acts like it's the only one you can legitimately draw, which is the height of pomposity and arrogance. I disagree and feel that Kerrigan's redemption was entirely plausible based on what we see in BW and SC1; him saying you're wrong is just being a jerk.
Good lord, that's not being a jerk. And beyond that you blatantly have thought my interpretation of Kerrigan in SC1 was wrong and hell you've done worse than that, you've blatantly criticized me for even liking Brood War -- implied that I'm an edge lord and constantly told me "I have rose coloured glasses". As if I'm some naive simpleton or something.

You're not wrong to like it, you're not wrong to have an opinion, but I think your take on the story is incorrect. And you obviously think mine is and have argued against it numerous times. So I'm not sure why everyone's getting so sensitive about this.

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If he wants to like BW that's his right; but he should be consistent about it and willing to turn the lens on things he likes
I actually don't have to do anything. But I do recognize storytelling flaws and a lot of issues with the presentation in Brood War.

As to... SCLegacy (since I guess we're going to keep belabouring this for whatever reason). Fnatic doesn't even like Brood War. He pretty much dislikes everything passed the Fall as I understand it. Or as far as I remember. So I'm not sure he's as exemplary a bipartisan as you're making him out to be.

I seriously do not remember my conversations with Fnatic and Hawki being that contentious (though I hardly remember even saying much to Hawki). Fnatic wasn't really all that respectful of my perspective when I'd debate him, though. So I'm not exactly sure what I did that was so much worse.

What was your user name on SCLegacy even?

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Hell I think they realized this with Diablo 3; in that game the heroes score an unambiguous victory against Diablo rather than just unintentionally fueling his plan
I mean, as strange as it is to do that in a dark sci-fi epic, it's even weirder to do it in a horror game. It kind of makes everything a lot less scary if there's hope.

But Diablo kind of weirdly transitions from a Horror game to a high fantasy over the course of the series. Which StarCraft kinda did too. StarCraft 1 is actually kind of a sci-fi Horror like Alien at times -- Brood War transitions into being more of a space opera. StarCraft 2 takes that even further. So there's that I guess.
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Old 02-22-2017, 08:12 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Good lord, that's not being a jerk. And beyond that you blatantly have thought my interpretation of Kerrigan in SC1 was wrong and hell you've done worse than that, you've blatantly criticized me for even liking Brood War -- implied that I'm an edge lord and constantly told me "I have rose coloured glasses". As if I'm some naive simpleton or something.

You're not wrong to like it, you're not wrong to have an opinion, but I think your take on the story is incorrect. And you obviously think mine is and have argued against it numerous times. So I'm not sure why everyone's getting so sensitive about this.



I actually don't have to do anything. But I do recognize storytelling flaws and a lot of issues with the presentation in Brood War.

As to... SCLegacy (since I guess we're going to keep belabouring this for whatever reason). Fnatic doesn't even like Brood War. He pretty much dislikes everything passed the Fall as I understand it. Or as far as I remember. So I'm not sure he's as exemplary a bipartisan as you're making him out to be.

I seriously do not remember my conversations with Fnatic and Hawki being that contentious (though I hardly remember even saying much to Hawki). Fnatic wasn't really all that respectful of my perspective when I'd debate him, though. So I'm not exactly sure what I did that was so much worse.

What was your user name on SCLegacy even?



I mean, as strange as it is to do that in a dark sci-fi epic, it's even weirder to do it in a horror game. It kind of makes everything a lot less scary if there's hope.

But Diablo kind of weirdly transitions from a Horror game to a high fantasy over the course of the series. Which StarCraft kinda did too. StarCraft 1 is actually kind of a sci-fi Horror like Alien at times -- Brood War transitions into being more of a space opera. StarCraft 2 takes that even further. So there's that I guess.
I think it was LordYAM or something. Anyway okay I'll admit I crossed a line criticizing you for liking BW; the issue was more that you aren't willing to turn the lens on it. For instance I love the original trilogy; however a truly honest fan will admit that even they have a few problems. Things like the Temple on Shakuras is FAR more of a deus ex machina, since the Keystone was at least built up over the campaign and they explained the mechanics (it absorbed the energy)

Fnantic Templar did enjoy some elements of BW; he felt that some of the plot elements didn't really hold up in the stand or queen of blades.

It's like I said with Warhammer. It's hard to care because nothing good happens. Even if the series is dark, there should be SOME rays of light in the darkness. Even after the prequel trilogy (When Palpatine killed the jedi) there's hope Luke will be able to rise and stop him eventually. After BW it just seemed hopeless; WOL had a sad moment (Raynor has to kill his friend) but the zerg have finally been halted in their tracks and Kerrigan can be rehabilitated. Mengsk's war crimes have also been exposed to the public at large. Heart has it that Kerrigan has finally faced her inner demons and found balance, while humanity has a truly decent leader for the first time in decades. Legacy has it that the Khala is gone but Amon has been defeated and the races are together. Speaking of which Legacy DID wrap up the main storyline of the franchise quite well. The main plot points were finished and while adventures can be had the overarching story is done.
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Old 02-22-2017, 11:41 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I think it was LordYAM or something. Anyway okay I'll admit I crossed a line criticizing you for liking BW; the issue was more that you aren't willing to turn the lens on it. For instance I love the original trilogy; however a truly honest fan will admit that even they have a few problems. Things like the Temple on Shakuras is FAR more of a deus ex machina, since the Keystone was at least built up over the campaign and they explained the mechanics (it absorbed the energy)
I don't hate the Xel'Naga artifact and I don't hate the Xel'Naga temple. The only thing I hate about the Artifact plotline is the WoL Tal'darim. They didn't really do a very good job with the Tal'darim until Wings of Liberty. And even then the only reason I think I like them there is because of John De Lancie. Seriously, John De Lancie was the best casting decision outside of maybe Josh Keaton and James Harper in all three games. Alarak's design is kind of cool looking too I guess.

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Fnantic Templar did enjoy some elements of BW; he felt that some of the plot elements didn't really hold up in the stand or queen of blades.
He finds there're issue with Iron Fist too if I remember right -- I mean most people on SCLegacy aren't fans of the plot holes in Iron Fist. I am pretty generous with it (mostly because I love the two admiral characters) but I think there are reasonable explanations for the plot holes therein.
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:08 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I don't hate the Xel'Naga artifact and I don't hate the Xel'Naga temple. The only thing I hate about the Artifact plotline is the WoL Tal'darim. They didn't really do a very good job with the Tal'darim until Wings of Liberty. And even then the only reason I think I like them there is because of John De Lancie. Seriously, John De Lancie was the best casting decision outside of maybe Josh Keaton and James Harper in all three games. Alarak's design is kind of cool looking too I guess.



He finds there're issue with Iron Fist too if I remember right -- I mean most people on SCLegacy aren't fans of the plot holes in Iron Fist. I am pretty generous with it (mostly because I love the two admiral characters) but I think there are reasonable explanations for the plot holes therein.

He said he enjoyed it overall despite the plot holes. Also Tvtropes pointed out that Amon making the khala makes khas even more awesome. He took a tool made by the devil for evil forces and used it for good uniting people through compassion. That's pretty cool when you think about it. In any case there was a dark force out there. Amon wasn't entirely out of left field
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