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Old 11-18-2017, 11:28 AM
Sargeras Sargeras is offline

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Cool Is Anduin a paladin?

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Old 11-18-2017, 12:19 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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More like the a cleric than a paladin. Like the old Clerics of Northshire, which were essentially armed and armored battlefield priests.
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Old 11-18-2017, 03:33 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Blizzard later elaborated that the reason why Anduin is really more a priest (even though such strict divisions are a bit absurd lorewise) still is philosophical, not mechanical (as in related to the classes as presented in-game). The key difference between priests and paladins is that priests are scholars first, combatants second in their approach and understanding of the Light, whereas paladins are warriors first.

Mechanically, Anduin is probably both. We see him as an adept swordfighter (he did take out two orcish warriors rather easily before being knocked by Saurfang), we see him use Light infused weapon strikes that characterize paladins (what he did against the troll seemed awfully similar to Templar's Verdict), but we also see him use spells normally utilized by "priests".

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
More like the a cleric than a paladin. Like the old Clerics of Northshire, which were essentially armed and armored battlefield priests.
Clerics were actually light armored, both in Warcraft I, the art for TCG, and as per Chronicle. Amored clerics are a trope, but one not much utilized in Warcraft.
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Old 11-18-2017, 04:45 PM
Sargeras Sargeras is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
what he did against the troll seemed awfully similar to Templar's Verdict
Oh? I was sure it was a Shalamayne thing
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Old 11-18-2017, 05:19 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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I wouldn't call Anduin's sword skills adept at all. He just knocked away those soldiers with single swings, and on the troll he used his sword more like a hammer.
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Old 11-18-2017, 06:03 PM
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Old 11-18-2017, 10:03 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Blizzard already said he’s not a paladin.
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:09 AM
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My impression was that he just deflected those two orcs to the side, and his attack against the troll seemed desperate and not very well-trained. Which is to say, he wasn't an adept fighter or anything.
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:17 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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He was the crown prince of Stormwind. Maybe he's not as talented at wielding a sword as his father, but if he didn't receive the best training his father's coffers could afford, I'll eat my hat.

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Old 11-19-2017, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Henwas the crown prince of Stormwind. Maybe he's not as talented at wielding a sword as his father, but if he didn't receive the best training his father's coffers could afford, I'll eat my hat.
He had the best trainers Varian could get (and Varian tried to teach Anduin himself as well), but per The Shattering Anduin always struggled with martial training, though he was passingly skilled with a bow and arrow.

It was why Varian sent him to Ironforge to train in combat, which ultimately had the opposite effect of convincing Anduin of his true calling as a priest.

So even with all of the training Varian tried to heap on him, it's an emphasized plot point that none of it really sank in because Anduin didn't have the temperament for it.

Last edited by ARM3481; 11-19-2017 at 12:39 AM..
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:27 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
He had the best trainers Varian could get (and Varian tried to teach Anduin himself as well), but per The Shattering Anduin always struggled with martial training, though he was passingly skilled with a bow and arrow.

It was why Varian sent him to Ironforge to train in combat, which ultimately had the opposite effect of convincing Anduin of his true calling as a priest.

So even with all of the training Varian tried to heap on him, it's an emphasized plot point that none of it really sank in because Anduin didn't have the temperament for it.
True, but that would still make him more adept than many.

While he certainly doesn't look it in the cinematic, I think that's more his lack of actual combat experience leading him to forget his training and less him not being skilled enough at sword combat.
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:28 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
I wouldn't call Anduin's sword skills adept at all. He just knocked away those soldiers with single swings, and on the troll he used his sword more like a hammer.
Being able to take a trained warrior with a single swing already means you are adept enough. Especially when those strikes seem to be quick and well executed, which they do. There's also a difference between adept and great.

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Oh? I was sure it was a Shalamayne thing
The weapon starts glowing with the Light before he brings it down in a powerful cut that erases the troll from existence.


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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So even with all of the training Varian tried to heap on him, it's an emphasized plot point that none of it really sank in because Anduin didn't have the temperament for it.

Well, the thing is that you don't have to be talented to become adept. Moreover, if it had been his temperament that formed a block for him, it might have changed as his outlook and world views changed. One of the major plots for him in Legion is starting to understand his father's words that to preserve peace, one must be willing to fight.
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Old 11-19-2017, 05:17 AM
Sargeras Sargeras is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Blizzard already said he’s not a paladin.
That's the point. Afrasiabi said he's not a paladin, but the original paladins were simply priests with some knight attributes
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
My impression was that he just deflected those two orcs to the side, and his attack against the troll seemed desperate and not very well-trained. Which is to say, he wasn't an adept fighter or anything.
Even if that's all he did, it's still pretty impressive. Those orcs were bigger and stronger than him and had probably seem more battles than he did, but he could still push them away. Maybe not eliminate or incapacitate, but at least hold his own. That's not something to scoff at.

Mind you, I was... Surprised to see that scene also, exactly because of the prior mentions of Anduin having no melee skill whatsoever. It doesn't really mesh with established lore, but...
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:11 AM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Even if that's all he did, it's still pretty impressive. Those orcs were bigger and stronger than him and had probably seem more battles than he did, but he could still push them away. Maybe not eliminate or incapacitate, but at least hold his own. That's not something to scoff at.

Mind you, I was... Surprised to see that scene also, exactly because of the prior mentions of Anduin having no melee skill whatsoever. It doesn't really mesh with established lore, but...
I think Anduin's fighting prowess is explained along the lines of what Marthen said re: Anduin's story in Legion. It's one thing for a child to be trained in sword fighting when the child has no real interest in it. It's another thing for a young adult, who now actively desires to know how to fight, to get some training.
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:22 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Even if that's all he did, it's still pretty impressive. Those orcs were bigger and stronger than him and had probably seem more battles than he did, but he could still push them away. Maybe not eliminate or incapacitate, but at least hold his own. That's not something to scoff at.
Agreed, although if you look at the cinematic closely, that is not all he did.

With the first orc warrior, we can see a well aimed and quick upward strike aimed at the orc's upper vital area (neck/head). The orc is hit, sent off his feet (which indicates some extent force applied given their average weight), his helmet splinters. In the better case, he would be at least incapacitated for a prolonged amount of time, in the worse one, he would die of either trauma or perhaps a cut to his neck.

With the second one, we can see even a clearer image. Anduin again strikes against his upper vital area, either knocking him unconscious or even causing fatal damage, and then, as the orc falls down, strikes him across his unarmored body, this time causing fatal damage with near absolute certainty.

Hardly just a deflection, hardly something a person not at least adept could do. And I am not even taking the pretty large possibility these orcs were rather experienced, seeing how they were part of Saurfang's vanguard, into the equation.
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:51 PM
Yorenec Yorenec is offline

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Adept is too strong of a word perhaps. By its very definition adept means talented or an expert which he's not.

I don't find anything particularly impressive. The first orc he swings at not only a smaller hitbox in the orc's head, but an armored area at that whereas the chest is not only a bigger target but also unarmored. The second orc his strike for the head makes more sense as it was not only an easier to hit but it also completely halted the momentum of the orc's swing. The problem here is when he immediately tries to follow through to finish the downed(and likely heavily disoriented/possibly concussed) opponent. He makes the horrendous mistake as not only the highest ranking person on the field but as a combatant of taking his eyes off the battlefield, and pays for it by not having enough time to react to Saurfang.

The troll is self-explanatory. Like Ethenil and Asterik said, it came off as desperate more than anything.

There's no doubt given his upbringing and the weapon he wields being of far superiority quality to pretty much every other one there that he's more than a match for the average grunt, but as it stands he's 0-2 against actually talented people.

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I think Anduin's fighting prowess is explained along the lines of what Marthen said re: Anduin's story in Legion. It's one thing for a child to be trained in sword fighting when the child has no real interest in it. It's another thing for a young adult, who now actively desires to know how to fight, to get some training.
His whole struggle in the cinematic is trying to emulate his father's way of being a king and warrior hence the armor and Shalamayne because he doesn't know any other way of doing either then coming to terms with the fact that's just not who he is. I don't really see him seeking further training, and I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually sheds the armor and hangs up Shalamayne to embrace being a more spiritual king who focuses more on bolstering and healing his troops than fighting with them.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:09 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Seems some of us have some really different standards when it comes to fighting and swordfighting. Time to agree to disagree, I suppose.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:15 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Anduain is a priest that took up some melee fighting, that doesn't make him a paladin. Paladins belong to a certain order.
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:48 PM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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Priest Anduin wielding a two-handed sword while wearing plate armor reminds me of the mighty esquilax.
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  #21  
Old 11-23-2017, 01:29 PM
AshenWings AshenWings is offline

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Default What is a Paladin?

I hope this is a chance to better define the differences between Priests and Paladins. I know "being part of an order" is part of the definition of Paladins - Silver Hand, Blood Knights, Argent Dawn, etc. But that order can be anything, and can spring up over time - like the Tauren Sunwalkers. As well, there are many groups and orders of priests, such as all the priests of the Stormwind Cathedral.

I honestly thought the difference was, a Paladin was a holy magic user that chose to wear armor and wield deadly weapons to wade into battle, rather than staying on the back lines and casting.

As such, Anduin wearing armor and a sword, fighting in the front line, to me looked like a paladin. But we were told specifically, Anduin is a priest.

A big distinction between the two - a priest (can) be about balance of light and void. They can embrace shadow magic. A paladin cannot. Shadow is, apparently, an anathema to paladins, which was the reasoning given for no Void Elf paladins. There will be Void Elf holy and discipline priests, though.

If it is not being part of an order, it is not wearing armor and heavy weapons, what is a Paladin? The big difference is their inability to work with the void.

It feels like an unanswered question. What is a paladin besides a priest in plate?
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:47 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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If Sargerei such as Tyrant Velhari are still paladins, then wielding the Light is not a requirement. I think we have to look at the wording of it. Might it have to do with a priest necessarily worshipping something, such as the Light, some Old God or like the sun and moon?

Or maybe the distinction is just a game mechanic. Anduin is a paladin if he says he is. If he says he's a priest, then that's what he is. Furthermore, I think him being there wielding a sword and armor is a rare exception.
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Old 11-25-2017, 08:17 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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He still got combat training, he will know what to do.

The whole "not good at melee combat" thing was a reason Varian had misgivings, but don't forget he also got combat training from his dwarven minder when in Ironforge after that fact.

Friendly reminder all good human royalty have dwarven combat training.
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Old 11-25-2017, 08:29 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I wonder whether Blizzard would also call Tyrant Velhari a paladin. It's obvious that her abilities are based on theirs and that she is to them what a Sith is to the Jedi, but if you ask Afrasiabi, what would he say?
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:28 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Friendly reminder all good human royalty have dwarven combat training.
So did Arthas...
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