Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old Today, 11:28 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Huntress
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 47

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Then we disagree on the fundamentals and there is little point in going forwards in this discussion for me.
I only disagree because I find it impossible for Ner'zhul to find his way back to Azeroth. Medivh had the power of a guardian empowered by ancient forces and millennia of accumulated experience. Ner'zhul was working from a single book that probably contained only a fraction of Medivh's knowledge, and he obviously was nowhere near as experienced and powerful.

Another equally powerful guardian saving Ner'zhul's bacon because he was following them the whole time is a lot easier for me to swallow.

That doesn't invalidate the Scourge being (relatively) young, since the Lich King as I imagined only started operating shortly after Medivh woke him up. Otherwise I think your idea of the Scourge as being akin to Christianity is perfect.

Last edited by BoxCrayonTales; Today at 11:31 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old Today, 11:35 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,483

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Do demons using a warmongering Horde for their schemes really have to ruin the Horde's free agency? It did when WC3 to Rise of the Horde did it since the Orcs were presented as pristine noble savages in the state of nature before the demons found them and their warmongering gets blamed on outside parties.
Except it didn't rob their free agency; it restored it. The whole "deceived noble savage" narrative was blasted down when Thrall confronted the bloodlusted Grom in Kalimdor and Grom basically revealed that the idealized image Thrall had been fed of the orcs as peaceful victims who'd been duped was nonsense and they chose their own corruption willingly.

(Incidentally the consequences of that are arguably among the main things that have contributed to Thrall's mismanagement of the orcs and the orcs' own narrative inconsistencies throughout WoW. Even once Thrall learned the truth himself, after building up a new Horde on the lie that none of what happened before was really their fault there was no easy way to undo the damage he'd unwittingly already done by erroneously instilling that sense of stubborn blamelessness into so many of them.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Won't deny the Legion hasn't turned out well overall. I'll say that making your world's archvillain be conquerors/destroyers of the universe who repeatedly fail to beat one single planet doesn't help their credibility.
WoW really did most of that damage though. WC3's handling of the Legion was fairly spot-on; they were projected as a genuine threat, relying on their undead proxies as fodder while most individual demons tended to have higher-than-normal stats, unique abilities and auras that made them more than a match for any single non-hero unit.

It was WoW that changed everything from felguard to infernals to eredar from powerhouses that often individually took whole squads of soldiers to hack down into basically just quillboars with a different model.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old Today, 11:48 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

Mountain Giant
Cacofonix's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 233

Default

I think the question of "How does the Scourge grow enough to become a serious threat in the time from Licj King Ner'zhul's first movements in the EK to the Third War's start?" can be addressed by:

1. Much of the Scourge's non-enthralled forces are deserters/traitors to the Alliance/Lordaeron.

2. Arthas advocates the Scourge without being implicated in Terenas' death.

3. The Scourge doesn't have the forces to overrun the world like WotLK said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
I am generally opposed to stories which strain credibility.

Medivh was the first person with the idea to use the Horde as his army to conquer Azeroth, and he was doing this of his own free will due to being corrupted by his own power. It strains credibility that random demon lords would show up and do the same thing, or that he was a puppet the whole time. That is not creative in my opinion.
Aegwyn's story in the WC2 manual made it sound like Medivh was a nice enough boy before demons got to him. Even if Sargeras had no connection to him, there's still a hint that Medivh was corrupted by an outside party. I mean, it's not like demonic corruption isn't an iconic part of Christian influenced mythology and fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
The Night Elves being aliens attracted to Azeroth and Draenor by the portals created using Medivh's knowledge could justify their involvement without needing to restrict the maps of Azeroth. Or maybe Ner'zhul stumbled upon their world and ended up fighting them, which led to them following him back to Azeroth when the Lich King rescued him.

The night elves, as said before, were originally much more violent and wild, so I think that portrayal could be helpful for informing these alternate alien counterparts. They fought with Ner'zhul's forces, Ner'zhul escaped them, they tracked down his trail for years until they found Azeroth and decided to attack in order to pre-empt any future invasions by what they perceived as hostile alien forces.

This raises the question of why there are elves on multiple planets, which is something that could be left open for a future plot. As a matter of fact, the different elf cultures from canon could be rewritten as cultures from different planets rather than one. I honestly found the number of new ethnic groups growing unmanageably large in WoW.
Since I'm not too fond of the Army of Light, I'm not sure if jumping onto other planets besides Draenor is a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Except it didn't rob their free agency; it restored it. The whole "deceived noble savage" narrative was blasted down when Thrall confronted the bloodlusted Grom in Kalimdor and Grom basically revealed that the idealized image Thrall had been fed of the orcs as peaceful victims who'd been duped was nonsense and they chose their own corruption willingly.
The demons still were held as the ones who forged the Orcs into a war machine instead of them as a bunch of tribes hanging around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
(Incidentally the consequences of that are arguably among the main things that have contributed to Thrall's mismanagement of the orcs and the orcs' own narrative inconsistencies throughout WoW. Even once Thrall learned the truth himself, after building up a new Horde on the lie that none of what happened before was really their fault there was no easy way to undo the damage he'd unwittingly already done by erroneously instilling that sense of stubborn blamelessness into so many of them.)
I chalk that up to bad writing/planning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
WoW really did most of that damage though. WC3's handling of the Legion was fairly spot-on; they were projected as a genuine threat, relying on their undead proxies as fodder while most individual demons tended to have higher-than-normal stats, unique abilities and auras that made them more than a match for any single non-hero unit.

It was WoW that changed everything from felguard to infernals to eredar from powerhouses that often individually took whole squads of soldiers to hack down into basically just quillboars with a different model.
I know. If it was up to me I'd have the Legion be both smaller in scope (they're just Sargeras' empire/subjects) forever broken at the Third War.

Last edited by Cacofonix; Today at 12:34 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old Today, 12:37 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Triceron's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 583

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post

I would prefer to keep the WC3 tech trees around because they are pretty cool and offer a lot of strategy opportunities. And that's before introducing variants like the high/blood elves, corrupted ancients, and naga.
Well I think you can absolutely do a reskin of War3 using this new lore, just by omitting the campaign. Even Night Elves work aside from a Demon Hunter hero name swap to make it more relevant to this new universe. Mageslayer, done.

Tauren and Jungle Trolls can easily be swapped for Ogres and Amani. Instead of a Tauren Chieftain you have an Ogre Overlord, instead of a Farseer you could have a Bleeding Hollow inspired Dark Prophet. Wyverns are Red Drakes, Kodos could be Giant Turtles and you can pepper the rest with Goblin support.

For the Scourge, swap out the Dread Lord for a San'layn.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old Today, 01:03 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Huntress
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 47

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Except it didn't rob their free agency; it restored it. The whole "deceived noble savage" narrative was blasted down when Thrall confronted the bloodlusted Grom in Kalimdor and Grom basically revealed that the idealized image Thrall had been fed of the orcs as peaceful victims who'd been duped was nonsense and they chose their own corruption willingly.

(Incidentally the consequences of that are arguably among the main things that have contributed to Thrall's mismanagement of the orcs and the orcs' own narrative inconsistencies throughout WoW. Even once Thrall learned the truth himself, after building up a new Horde on the lie that none of what happened before was really their fault there was no easy way to undo the damage he'd unwittingly already done by erroneously instilling that sense of stubborn blamelessness into so many of them.)



WoW really did most of that damage though. WC3's handling of the Legion was fairly spot-on; they were projected as a genuine threat, relying on their undead proxies as fodder while most individual demons tended to have higher-than-normal stats, unique abilities and auras that made them more than a match for any single non-hero unit.

It was WoW that changed everything from felguard to infernals to eredar from powerhouses that often individually took whole squads of soldiers to hack down into basically just quillboars with a different model.
That's pretty much why I prefer to write the Horde as binding and enslaving demons, like some of the blood elves do, rather than being easily tricked by them. Aegwynn made the demons out to be a pretty big danger to any planet they appeared on, since her Order went to great lengths to increase their power and longevity, so it strains credibility that the orcs survived so long without recognizing the threat demons posed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
I think the question of "How does the Scourge grow enough to become a serious threat in the time from Licj King Ner'zhul's first movements in the EK to the Third War's start?" can be addressed by:

1. Much of the Scourge's non-enthralled forces are deserters/traitors to the Alliance/Lordaeron.

2. Arthas advocates the Scourge without being implicated in Terenas' death.

3. The Scourge doesn't have the forces to overrun the world like WotLK said.
That's not the only beef I have with the Scourge. The other factions have centuries of implied history, whereas the Scourge is a new age religion being adopted by ancient cultures. Fair enough.

Where I disagree with Marthen's idea is that we keep the Scourge largely self-contained as a faction, rather than tying it into some of the other plot points introduced previously. The guardians as a plot point have massive ramifications for the history of Azeroth, but they've never received more than the tiniest attention in canon despite being integral to the arrival of the Horde and the wars. Bringing back legacy characters like Ner'zhul and his death knights strains credibility if they aren't receiving help from somebody with way more experience and power; ergo, I introduced another guardian to be the first Lich King and serve as the lynchpin of the Scourge even if everything else was made by his allies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Aegwyn's story in the WC2 manual made it sound like Medivh was a nice enough boy before demons got to him. Even if Sargeras had no connection to him, there's still a hint that Medivh was corrupted by an outside party. I mean, it's not like demonic corruption isn't an iconic part of Christian influenced mythology and fantasy.
Being corrupted doesn't equate to Medivh being possessed by the Devil. Kil'jaeden was afraid of him, not happy to see his teacher return. (As a matter of fact, there's no implication in WC2 that Kil'jaeden was on good terms with Sargeras. For all we know they could have been mortal enemies by the time Gul'dan was tutored.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Since I'm not too fond of the Army of Light, I'm not sure if jumping onto other planets besides Draenor is a good idea.
That ship sailed in Warcraft 1 when the entire premise was that orcs were literally alien invaders, and again in Warcraft 2 when Ner'zhul opened portals to a bazillion other planets. The strange thing is that none of those portals attracted attention from the connected planets, even though an experienced mage like Khadgar had reason to believe that any connected worlds would suffer negative consequences when Draenor exploded.

I would really like to pick up that forgotten plot point to justify more alien invasions. Maybe, I don't know, introduce interplanetary empires. Canon is already extremely small, so anything which opens the universe more is something I can get behind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
Well I think you can absolutely do a reskin of War3 using this new lore, just by omitting the campaign.
What lore? I'm still brainstorming.

I mean, I just had the idea for Northrend to be stuck in another plane of existence similar to the Negaverse/Dark Kingdom in Sailor Moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
Even Night Elves work aside from a Demon Hunter hero name swap to make it more relevant to this new universe. Mageslayer, done.
Having demon hunters isn't that strange when demons have been known to exist and attack worlds since WC1/2. In fact, depicting the sentinels as alien invaders with practical knowledge of portal travel means that demon hunters would be mandatory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
Tauren and Jungle Trolls can easily be swapped for Ogres and Amani. Instead of a Tauren Chieftain you have an Ogre Overlord, instead of a Farseer you could have a Bleeding Hollow inspired Dark Prophet. Wyverns are Red Drakes, Kodos could be Giant Turtles and you can pepper the rest with Goblin support.
The trolls don't need to be removed since they were introduced in WC2. The Kalimdor-specific races and creatures are difficult to work in w/o an invasion of/from Kalimdor but they don't absolutely need to be limited to Kalimdor. They could live somewhere else in proximity to Azeroth, or even be immigrants from another planet.

If the sentinels are part of an interplanetary empire or something, which makes no sense not to exist if interplanetary portals have existed as long as they supposedly have, then it makes sense for other planets to be accessible once the interplanetary wars start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
For the Scourge, swap out the Dread Lord for a San'layn.
Why can't we have both?

The Scourge already recruits souls and infrastructure from the nether. It makes no sense they wouldn't have preparations in place to deal with the demons that infest the nether. Spells like Holy Light didn't distinguish undead, demons and cultists in WC3, suggesting some kind of metaphysical connection.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old Today, 01:41 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

Mountain Giant
Cacofonix's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 233

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
That's not the only beef I have with the Scourge. The other factions have centuries of implied history, whereas the Scourge is a new age religion being adopted by ancient cultures. Fair enough.

Where I disagree with Marthen's idea is that we keep the Scourge largely self-contained as a faction, rather than tying it into some of the other plot points introduced previously. The guardians as a plot point have massive ramifications for the history of Azeroth, but they've never received more than the tiniest attention in canon despite being integral to the arrival of the Horde and the wars. Bringing back legacy characters like Ner'zhul and his death knights strains credibility if they aren't receiving help from somebody with way more experience and power; ergo, I introduced another guardian to be the first Lich King and serve as the lynchpin of the Scourge even if everything else was made by his allies.
When you put it that way, I guess Ner'zhul being the spokesman of this new Lich King might work out. Maybe have him team-up with Arthas as the representatives of the Orcs and Humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Being corrupted doesn't equate to Medivh being possessed by the Devil. Kil'jaeden was afraid of him, not happy to see his teacher return. (As a matter of fact, there's no implication in WC2 that Kil'jaeden was on good terms with Sargeras. For all we know they could have been mortal enemies by the time Gul'dan was tutored.)
Fitting that in with a Kil'jaeden as Sargeras' henchman, he could have been hoping he was gone for good so that he could upstage him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
That ship sailed in Warcraft 1 when the entire premise was that orcs were literally alien invaders, and again in Warcraft 2 when Ner'zhul opened portals to a bazillion other planets. The strange thing is that none of those portals attracted attention from the connected planets, even though an experienced mage like Khadgar had reason to believe that any connected worlds would suffer negative consequences when Draenor exploded.

I would really like to pick up that forgotten plot point to justify more alien invasions. Maybe, I don't know, introduce interplanetary empires. Canon is already extremely small, so anything which opens the universe more is something I can get behind.
BtDP's Alliance Campaign ended with Draenor's destruction though. This carried over into later lore so it looks like they were trying to keep focus on Azeroth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Why can't we have both?

The Scourge already recruits souls and infrastructure from the nether. It makes no sense they wouldn't have preparations in place to deal with the demons that infest the nether. Spells like Holy Light didn't distinguish undead, demons and cultists in WC3, suggesting some kind of metaphysical connection.
The Dreadlords could just be enthralled like Beta Warcraft 3.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old Today, 02:37 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,800

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
I only disagree because I find it impossible for Ner'zhul to find his way back to Azeroth. Medivh had the power of a guardian empowered by ancient forces and millennia of accumulated experience. Ner'zhul was working from a single book that probably contained only a fraction of Medivh's knowledge, and he obviously was nowhere near as experienced and powerful.
There's dozens of possible explanations, each more or less plausible given how the entire universe is structured. For example, one could easily write it so that unbeknownst to Ner'zhul or anyone else, the Book of Medivh was never about opening any portals, but specifically portals to Azeroth, leaving them stranded in Northrend. Or maybe the pull of the Great Portal and the link between the worlds was so strong that they were pulled to Azeroth, specifically Nortrend anyway. Or maybe time passes differently in the Lower Planes, and Ner'zhul had enough time to become a god-like figure and a motivation of his own to return to Azeroth. Or maybe there was another group of demons unrelated to Kil'jaeden or Sargeras involved in his return (cough cough Nathrezim).

The point is, nothing is truly impossible when it comes to writing, provides you have enough imagination and finesse to fit within the existing context, all that matters is the design. And for me, the Scourge being born out of orcish necromantic practices is far more interesting than an ancient imprisoned on Azeroth and disconnected from the orcs completely.

------------------------------

Also, I am not sure where does this need to erase Kalimdor completely from the map come from. It simply can't exist as a "forgotten and mythic land in the west" or a continent the size of Lordaeron, Quel'thalas, Khaz Modan, Azeroth combined, but there is no reason it can't exist at all.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.