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  #51  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:08 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Since Baron is too lazy I'll have to do it myself.

Here's the quest given by Matthias Lehner
But this is WoW... issue being, if we find mistakes with the plot here, nobody will care. Because people are already used to examining the story of WoW already and finding its faults. You might as well show the quests where we find out Muradin and Mal'Ganis are both still alive... which only makes Arthas's decisions more retarded.


~ ~ ~

Really, the only lore-based major criticism I have is the treatment of the Horde and the orcs. The demonization of the Old Horde simultaneous with the lionization of its leader. It's a hole, and the only way to fill it in is to say that Thrall is naive.

However... Thrall being naive is a fanon construct, as far as I can see. Blizzard agrees with Thrall in almost everything he does. It's only very recently, with Garrosh, that they are starting to show that even they believe he can possibly make judgment errors.


EDIT: That's my lore-based criticism. My gameplay-based criticism is not really having an Alliance campaign. Just an Arthas Campaign and a Blood Elf Campaign. The Horde-lore and Alliance-gameplay complaints combined to turn me away from Warcraft III, back in the day.

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  #52  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:10 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Agreed.

Also the reason TFT Fel orcs look the same is because who would bother to make entirely new models to showcase bony protrusions and bigger teeth when you have perfectly serviceable models with Chaos orcs.
And the rename in the MapEditor is entirely minor and certainly not something Blizzard intended to use as a means of spreading lore. It was changed just to avoid confusion with the actual users of the MapEditor (so they don't think they are dealing with slightly different models, hence wasting their time when it turns out they aren't).
Meet the Murlocs! The whole Murloc race (not just new Mur'gul units) got updated slightly, through the difference between TFT/ROC version (Map editor talk, you'll get it if you research the Object editor).

And guess what update did they receive? Bony spikes sticking out of their bodies!

As of WC3, no difference whatsoever was noted between Chaos and Fel orcs. By WoW's time, Chaos Orcs have been already removed from lore altogether, and Fel Orcs got a new model, so that you wouldn't have a whole half an expansion full of rehashs.

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Also Nazja made a good point, the protrusions are actually rocks they shove into their bodies because... they are crazy mazochists I suppose. Though I think the spines sticking out of their backs and giant teeth are mutations previously not seen on Chaos orcs.
This makes more sense. Nevertheless, riders and hedgeared warlocks have no such updated and just use the red-skinned orc model, like the Horde sentries in the Blasted Lands.
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  #53  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:13 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Really, the only lore-based major criticism I have is the treatment of the Horde and the orcs. The demonization of the Old Horde simultaneous with the lionization of its leader. It's a hole, and the only way to fill it in is to say that Thrall is naive.
The lionization of its leader doesn't really happen in warcraft III itself though. Thrall shouts "FOR DOOMHAMMER!", but that really is about it. The manual doesn't really express any sort of tone regarding doomhammer, and I don't think he's mentioned in-game (other than the battle shout) at all.
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  #54  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:18 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The lionization of its leader doesn't really happen in warcraft III itself though. Thrall shouts "FOR DOOMHAMMER!", but that really is about it. The manual doesn't really express any sort of tone regarding doomhammer, and I don't think he's mentioned in-game (other than the battle shout) at all.
* Thrall shouts "FOR DOOMHAMMER!", carries the doomhammer, and wears his armor.

* Lothar's death is retconned so that Doomhammer battled him fairly. (Note this is the same set of games that will have Daelin trying the same sort of ambush; it's not too evil for him, apparently.)

* Most damningly, the Founding of Durotan campaign establishes the name Orgrimmar, meaning the New Horde's capital will always and forever be named after the leader of its darkest demonic time in history.


Orc lore is still suffering identity crisis from this oversight, to this day.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-19-2013 at 09:20 AM..
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  #55  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:30 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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It could be handwaved with a little effort. Maybe there were no witnesses, so Dalaran could never prove it was Forsaken instead of Scourge who killed them. Maybe Dalaran was afraid of being totally killed by Sylvanas, so they didn't rock the boat diplomatically.

Comparable situations would be: Why didn't the end of the Founding of Durotar campaign cause a massive unending civil war between Jaina-loyal Theramore and Daelin-loyal Kul Tiras, enraged over the regicide of the Alliance Grand Admiral and their own leader?

What happened to the human soldiers under Arthas's command after the RoC Arthas campaign? The survivors of Muradin's camp know that Arthas turned traitor. What about the humans? And if they did know, why wasn't Arthas at least guarded a little bit when he returned to Lordaeron?


And really, it looks like Arthas just stabbed Terenas and ran away singing trololol. Because in the next mission Capital City is still standing, and Arthas is hiding in the shadows so ordinary Town Guards don't gut him like a fish.
The Scourge was beating down and headless in Cataclysm, and their presence was only marginal in Silverpine even in Vanilla.
Besides, look at the evidence. You have a pile of corpses leading to an Archmage, who like others of his rank held a powerful ring that is used in spellcraft.
Hours after his death the Forsaken take out the Ambermill defectors, which were protected by an impenetrably barrier which could only be opened by an Archmage's ring. Hmm, who dunnit?
Not to mention Dalaran doesn't have to attack the Forsaken on their own, just rejoin the Alliance after hearing those news. That wouldn't be too dangerous for them. That is why those two events don't work well together.

As for Kul Tiras and Theramore. It is likely Tirasi army and navy were too depleted after they all died with Daelin. By the time they stabilized it is likely they had cooled off or were just wary of new war.
Compare that to post-WotLK Dalaran which was just ascendant and brimming with newfound power.

If you recall after Arthas killed Mal'ganis he ran off into the snowstorm. It is likely his people waited for him, or followed him, while Muradin's men split after it was revealed he died.
Then Arthas came back with undead at his back and killed them all, raised them so they could follow him to Lordaeron (you can see his troops undead and behind him in the cinematic). This is wholly WCIII contained.
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  #56  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:34 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
* Thrall shouts "FOR DOOMHAMMER!", carries the doomhammer, and wears his armor.

* Most damningly, the Founding of Durotan campaign establishes the name Orgrimmar, meaning the New Horde's capital will always and forever be named after the leader of its darkest demonic time in history.
You forget one thing Orgrim did though: He founded the new horde. I don't think it's too much of a stretch they respect him to some degree for that. Orgrim is not just the leader of its darkest demonic time, but also the guy who led their rebirth.

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* Lothar's death is retconned so that Doomhammer battled him fairly. (Note this is the same set of games that will have Daelin trying the same sort of ambush; it's not too evil for him, apparently.)
That didn't happen in warcraft III, as far as I know. I can't fight anything in the manual that suggests a one on one battle. It is somewhat inconsistent with warcraft II in that the orcish charge against Lothar happened during the siege rather than before it, but the whole duel thing came from "Tides of Darkness"
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  #57  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:37 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Then Arthas came back with undead at his back and killed them all, raised them so they could follow him to Lordaeron (you can see his troops undead and behind him in the cinematic). This is wholly WCIII contained.
The problem Baron was talking about is that the very next mission has Arthas frantically running away from local footmen to save his life.
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  #58  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:39 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
As of WC3, no difference whatsoever was noted between Chaos and Fel orcs. By WoW's time, Chaos Orcs have been already removed from lore altogether, and Fel Orcs got a new model, so that you wouldn't have a whole half an expansion full of rehashs.
Well, it is reasonable that no one talks about Chaos orcs anymore because they were a very unique event. And even if they were referred to as Fel orcs (which I am sure they haven't) it could just be that people use the term for a lack of a better one. After all "Chaos orc" was just an abstract unit designation visible only to the omniscient player.

I suppose I just find my own interpretation more plausible and lacking anything concrete from you I am sticking to it, and vice versa for you.

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However... Thrall being naive is a fanon construct, as far as I can see. Blizzard agrees with Thrall in almost everything he does. It's only very recently, with Garrosh, that they are starting to show that even they believe he can possibly make judgment errors.
It doesn't really matter what the writers believe, the story presented was that Thrall is naive IS the best explanation. Both in misunderstanding his own people and being too trusting (Grom, Varimathras...).
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  #59  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:39 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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The problem Baron was talking about is that the very next mission has Arthas frantically running away from local footmen to save his life.
Sounds like Arthas was chased by dozens of footmen... I have no idea where he gets the whole ''Arthas was running away'' bit, unless he sucked so hard he couldn't even play the mission right.
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  #60  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:45 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
You forget one thing Orgrim did though: He founded the new horde. I don't think it's too much of a stretch they respect him to some degree for that. Orgrim is not just the leader of its darkest demonic time, but also the guy who led their rebirth.
So did Orgrim do anything wrong, other than letting Gul'dan live and using his Stormreaver-created units? (And let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he repented of enslaving red dragons, too. I don't think he deserves it, but...)

Was there any problem with leading an army of Orcish Grunts to conquer/kill all of the Human-Dwarven-Gnomish-Elven kingdoms in the world? Is this kind of thing an okay thing for the Horde to do? Or is it a bad thing?

Identity crisis. Hello Garrosh. What is the Horde?


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That didn't happen in warcraft III, as far as I know. I can't fight anything in the manual that suggests a one on one battle. It is somewhat inconsistent with warcraft II in that the orcish charge against Lothar happened during the siege rather than before it, but the whole duel thing came from "Tides of Darkness"
Hmm, I'll have to look it up again. It could be that the "duel" was added later, but I'm pretty sure Doomhammer is credited with ordering a desperate charge or something.
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  #61  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:46 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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The problem Baron was talking about is that the very next mission has Arthas frantically running away from local footmen to save his life.
That is easy to explain.

First off Capital City did fall. Early undead missions tell us that explicitly.

So how did Arthas get to be chased by a bunch of common soldiers? Just like we saw. Tichondrius plucked him from his host with a teleport spell and sent him on an errand.

That also sets up the tone of the Legion not being friends to the Scourge (the way they treat Arthas), that the Scourge are just their lackeys.
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  #62  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:48 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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That didn't happen in warcraft III, as far as I know. I can't fight anything in the manual that suggests a one on one battle. It is somewhat inconsistent with warcraft II in that the orcish charge against Lothar happened during the siege rather than before it, but the whole duel thing came from "Tides of Darkness"
What are you talking about, you crazy man, you. Read the very first Human page!

Lothar’s forces surrounded the orcs’ volcanic citadel of Blackrock Spire and laid siege to their defenses. In a last-ditch effort, Doomhammer and his lieutenants staged a daring charge from the Spire and clashed with Lothar’s paladins in the center of the Burning Steppes. Doomhammer and Lothar squared off in a titanic battle that left both mighty combatants battered and drained. Though Doomhammer narrowly succeeded in vanquishing Lothar, the great hero’s death did not have the effect the warchief had hoped for.

Turalyon, Lothar’s most trusted lieutenant, took up Lothar’s bloodstained shield and rallied his grief-stricken brethren for a vicious counterattack. Under the ragged standards of both Lordaeron and Azeroth, Turalyon’s troops
slaughtered the bulk of Doomhammer’s remaining forces in a glorious, but terrible rout. There was nothing left for the ragged, scattered orc survivors but to flee to the last standing bastion of orcish power – the dark portal.


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Hmm, I'll have to look it up again. It could be that the "duel" was added later, but I'm pretty sure Doomhammer is credited with ordering a desperate charge or something.
He is wrong, don't worry.

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader
Sounds like Arthas was chased by dozens of footmen... I have no idea where he gets the whole ''Arthas was running away'' bit, unless he sucked so hard he couldn't even play the mission right.
All the knights and footmen in this mission have their stats heavily enhanced, forcing the player to run and hide, instead of fighting them. This is canon - Arthas had to evade even the smallest patrols in this mission, it was a definite "stealth" scenario.

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Well, it is reasonable that no one talks about Chaos orcs anymore because they were a very unique event. And even if they were referred to as Fel orcs (which I am sure they haven't) it could just be that people use the term for a lack of a better one. After all "Chaos orc" was just an abstract unit designation visible only to the omniscient player.
That's the thing. It was an early definition that only the player could see.

To explain, if you run ROC campaigns in TFT (which you can in form of the Enhanced Campaigns) you'll find all the Chaos Orcs re-named Fel Orcs.

I'll use this moment to promote the Enhanced Campaigns. Specifically, Kir's Lore Friendly version, which I'd be glad to send to anyone who wishes to replay the wonderful ROC campaigns with TFT additions!
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  #63  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:49 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It doesn't really matter what the writers believe, the story presented was that Thrall is naive IS the best explanation. Both in misunderstanding his own people and being too trusting (Grom, Varimathras...).
Okay. In that case, is it naive of the orcs to continue idolizing Orgrim Doomhammer?

Should we understand that the Horde of Warcraft III is still a murderous pack of marauders, as indicated by that random grunt in Thrall's group during the "Cry of the Warsong" mission? (Whom Thrall never berates for being so battle-eager?)

If your character is a Playable Orc who is proud of his New Horde heritage, is it part of your characterization that you are naive and ignorant of your race's history?
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  #64  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:50 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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So did Orgrim do anything wrong, other than letting Gul'dan live and using his Stormreaver-created units? (And let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he repented of enslaving red dragons, too. I don't think he deserves it, but...)

Was there any problem with leading an army of Orcish Grunts to conquer/kill all of the Human-Dwarven-Gnomish-Elven kingdoms in the world? Is this kind of thing an okay thing for the Horde to do? Or is it a bad thing?

Identity crisis. Hello Garrosh. What is the Horde?
Of course Orgrim did plenty of stuff wrong. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that warcraft III isn't arguing that. No opinion of Doomhammer's old policies are mentioned at all. Just that Orgrim helped free them, which is true. Hell, you could even argue Orgrim as the proto-typical redeemed orc.

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What are you talking about, you crazy man, you. Read the very first Human page!

Lothar’s forces surrounded the orcs’ volcanic citadel of Blackrock Spire and laid siege to their defenses. In a last-ditch effort, Doomhammer and his lieutenants staged a daring charge from the Spire and clashed with Lothar’s paladins in the center of the Burning Steppes. Doomhammer and Lothar squared off in a titanic battle that left both mighty combatants battered and drained. Though Doomhammer narrowly succeeded in vanquishing Lothar, the great hero’s death did not have the effect the warchief had hoped for.

Turalyon, Lothar’s most trusted lieutenant, took up Lothar’s bloodstained shield and rallied his grief-stricken brethren for a vicious counterattack. Under the ragged standards of both Lordaeron and Azeroth, Turalyon’s troops
slaughtered the bulk of Doomhammer’s remaining forces in a glorious, but terrible rout. There was nothing left for the ragged, scattered orc survivors but to flee to the last standing bastion of orcish power – the dark portal.



He is wrong, don't worry.
And now I need to go to an eye doctor.
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  #65  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:52 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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There is indeed a desperate charge (as said, the charge took place during the siege), but it was a charge specifically organized in the hopes of taking out Lothar, letting the alliance fall apart before they could take his fortress. Not exactly a clean battle tactic
Doomhammer and Lothar squared off in a titanic battle that left both mighty combatants battered and drained. Though Doomhammer narrowly succeeded in vanquishing Lothar, the great hero’s death did not have the effect the warchief had hoped for.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:52 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Of course Orgrim did plenty of stuff wrong. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that warcraft III isn't arguing that. No opinion of Doomhammer's old policies are mentioned at all. Just that Orgrim helped free them, which is true. Hell, you could even argue Orgrim as the proto-typical redeeded orc.
Who disbanded the Raiders between the First and Second Wars?

How did he have the power to do so?
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:54 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Who disbanded the Raiders between the First and Second Wars?

How did he have the power to do so?
Gul'dan, by the power of being mean!
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:54 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Who disbanded the Raiders between the First and Second Wars?

How did he have the power to do so?
Gul'dan, and completely unexplained.

Not exactly sure how that factors in here though. It's just a weird, random bit, which there are plenty of. Not really something that says "Orcs love doomhammer's old horde!"

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Doomhammer and Lothar squared off in a titanic battle that left both mighty combatants battered and drained. Though Doomhammer narrowly succeeded in vanquishing Lothar, the great hero’s death did not have the effect the warchief had hoped for.
Thank you for ensuring the health of the eye-related dutch health care industry.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:56 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Gul'dan, and completely unexplained.

Not exactly sure how that factors in here though. It's just a weird, random bit, which there are plenty of. Not really something that says "Orcs love doomhammer's old horde!"
Originally, it was Doomhammer who did it, because the Wolf Riders were staunch supporters of Blackhand. WC3 retconned it away to make Doomhammer better and Gul'dan meaner.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:58 AM
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Okay. In that case, is it naive of the orcs to continue idolizing Orgrim Doomhammer?

Should we understand that the Horde of Warcraft III is still a murderous pack of marauders, as indicated by that random grunt in Thrall's group during the "Cry of the Warsong" mission? (Whom Thrall never berates for being so battle-eager?)

If your character is a Playable Orc who is proud of his New Horde heritage, is it part of your characterization that you are naive and ignorant of your race's history?
Well I feel you are just being hard on purpose here.

Because obviously it is a complex situation. To begin, how orcs see Doomhammer as a good guy was already covered before. I won't repeat myself.

But are you a naive fool who doesn't know your history when you show pride in the Horde? Yes and no, it is likely you adhere to a whitewashed version of history but every bit of good the Horde has done since WCIII is a true source of pride. Even though it is partially predicated on wrong pretenses the redemption of the orcs was a real and true thing, well mostly (see Cataclysm and MoP).

Either way it is a complex and nuanced situation. As I've said at the very start, it is these gray PoV falacies that make for a good story where both sides have goals and motivations you can sympathize with.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:01 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Thank you for ensuring the health of the eye-related dutch health care industry.
Why won't you post your "special look" articles here on SoL?
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:01 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Gul'dan, and completely unexplained.

Not exactly sure how that factors in here though. It's just a weird, random bit, which there are plenty of. Not really something that says "Orcs love doomhammer's old horde!"
Completely unexplained, and completely impossible. You say that Doomhammer's old policies aren't mentioned, and this is generally true. That's because doing so would create a conundrum for Blizzard---the Old Horde is bad bad, and Doomhammer is good good.

Remember that Lord of the Clans was out already, establishing that Orgrim Doomhammer never drank the demon blood. He was a good, strong, proud orcish warrior.



I criticize the Tides of Darkness novel a lot, but it did away with the demons commanding Doomhammer's Horde... and I can't blame it for doing so. After all, how do you depict a demon-corrupted army doing evil things under the specific orders of a non-corrupt and honorable leader? The only way would be to make Doomhammer a puppet. Which would be an even worse characterization defamation.

Of course, this leads back to war and genocide not being a bad thing, so long as you're doing it for the good of the Horde. That sounds awfully familiar to me.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:02 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally, it was Doomhammer who did it, because the Wolf Riders were staunch supporters of Blackhand. WC3 retconned it away to make Doomhammer better and Gul'dan meaner.
So, I looked it up.

Gul'dan: "Although his suspicions of me were never fully assuaged, I did succeed in convincing the War Chief that the Raiders were preparing to unite with the sons of Blackhand in a revolt against him. Although this claim was untrue, Orgrim was already suspicious of Rend and Maim and so disbanded the multitude of Wolfriders, sending them into the various arms of the Grunt forces."

Orgrim did the disbanding, but Gul'dan is the one who tricked him into it. It's really not a matter of shifting responsibility around, as it is a matter of shortening the backstory.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:04 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Orgrim did the disbanding, but Gul'dan is the one who tricked him into it. It's really not a matter of shifting responsibility around, as it is a matter of shortening the backstory.
That's Warcraft II lore.

Warcraft III lore states that Gul'dan disbanded them himself, per the manual description for the Raider unit. Remember that Raiders are good good and Doomhammer is good good... good good wouldn't disband other good good.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Thank you for ensuring the health of the eye-related dutch health care industry.
I actually sat down and talked with a Dutch guy for a long while one time. One of the many topics we covered was how Privatized Medicine was a bad idea, and he complained of Dutch healthcare being very bad in this regard.


Oh and Kir, I just disagree with your view on Fel orcs, sorry. I don't want to drag it on since we both seem unwilling to give ground in this case.
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