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  #26  
Old 09-24-2015, 10:42 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Its funny, i remember reading that WC cant be properly remade in SC because it cant handle the trees being interactable. So only Blizz can actually remake it.
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  #27  
Old 09-25-2015, 09:34 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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You guys think Blizzard is going to change anything? They are going to reskin everything, reuse everything they can (voice acting, as an example), and then sell it for fifty bucks a shot.

They will probably want something to release a year or two after Starcraft 2 comes out, to soak up the RTS crowd again. Then they can release a Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne HD a year or two after that, to buy some time for Starcraft 3: Raynor and Kerrigan's Wild Vacation.
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  #28  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:03 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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If it's not free then I don't see many people buying this, like I doubt it would pop a million. Even hundreds of thousands is not guaranteed.

If it is free then an updated WC3 might mean Blizzard is catching up with other companies and showing some common sense at last.
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  #29  
Old 09-25-2015, 03:45 PM
Myrillion Myrillion is offline

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That's pretty awful. It's clearly Illidan and his demon form is way too bulky. And using Illidan's model for the DH in custom maps is pretty stupid. At least change the tattoos.
Yes but the Blizzard art team is pretty obsessed with the hypermasculine.

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As long as it has a map editor, I'm happy.
'Reckon it'll be any easier to use than the Galaxy Map Editor?
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  #30  
Old 09-25-2015, 03:45 PM
CosmicGuitars CosmicGuitars is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
You guys think Blizzard is going to change anything? They are going to reskin everything, reuse everything they can (voice acting, as an example), and then sell it for fifty bucks a shot.

They will probably want something to release a year or two after Starcraft 2 comes out, to soak up the RTS crowd again. Then they can release a Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne HD a year or two after that, to buy some time for Starcraft 3: Raynor and Kerrigan's Wild Vacation.
So if they change things (like the voice acting) they'd be strung up and crucified for tarnishing Warcraft 3, but if they didn't change the voice acting, they'd be criticized for reusing old assets?

Sounds fairly like a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.
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  #31  
Old 09-25-2015, 04:11 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Honestly I'd be happy to pay 10$ for an updated WC3/TFT with better battle.net compatibility (I can't really play with my friends online anymore), updated models, and such.

Leave the sound/story/gameplay alone.

Maybe a new bonus campaign or something retelling WoW events. I dunno.
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  #32  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:27 PM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Maybe a new bonus campaign or something retelling WoW events. I dunno.
You know that would actually be kinda cool. Damage is already done, may as well make it playable this time.

Wrathgate, Siege of Orgrimmar, Quel'danas...

Huh, guess WoW:RTS basically be an extended Horde campaign.
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  #33  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:29 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
You know that would actually be kinda cool. Damage is already done, may as well make it playable this time.

Wrathgate, Siege of Orgrimmar, Quel'danas...

Huh, guess WoW:RTS basically be an extended Horde campaign.
I guess?

I'd rather see stuff adapted properly instead.
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  #34  
Old 09-26-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
Its funny, i remember reading that WC cant be properly remade in SC because it cant handle the trees being interactable. So only Blizz can actually remake it.
Yeah, SC2 has no destructible doodad system. They're just considered as buildings, and you can't fill the map with mineral nodes (the would be equivalents of trees).

Also, cliff levels are limited to 4, and one of them isn't even usable by ground units. W3 had circa 14 cliff levels, with shallow water and deep water, and included a cliff-advantage system were units had stat advantages when attacking from better positions.

Don't forget the day/night cycle too, and its repercussions in the map as a whole, as well as the stat modifiers when fighting at night.

Overall, SC2 is just worse than W3 in many aspects. Aside from the obvious technical improvements that had to happen anyway the bulk of the game was just a step back in so many aspects.

And then they overcomplicated the editor with bullshit no one wants or needs to use, but still have to deal with. In W3 you could create new units easily with a few clicks, while in SC2 you have to create attack and armor types with their own model instances, which is a goddamn pain in the ass and doesn't really provide any advantage over the old simpler system.

The best outcome would be for them to improve SC2 with all those things that didn't make it from W3, and then release it there. I could see W3HD working as a standalone just like Heroes of the Storm, but I think that would be a mistake. They need to unify all their SC2-engine-based games into a single platform around the arcade, for fuck's sake. But hey it's Blizzard, killers of the mapmaking community. Don't expect anything out of them.
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  #35  
Old 09-28-2015, 06:51 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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announcing blizzard: Stormlords.

basically disney infinite skylanders (metzen is a fan), lego dimensions etc but of blizzard guys.
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  #36  
Old 09-28-2015, 11:38 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Also, cliff levels are limited to 4, and one of them isn't even usable by ground units. W3 had circa 14 cliff levels, with shallow water and deep water, and included a cliff-advantage system were units had stat advantages when attacking from better positions.
The cliff advantage system wasn't a 'stat' advantage. It was totally RNG-based miss mechanic. (Which SC1 had too)

Cliffs in SC2 basically act as a big huge cloak. Ground units can't see up cliffs. So things on cliffs can shoot stuff on the ground with impunity.

More strategic (need air presence, need cliff presence), less random nonsense.

Other stuff was just more useful in the WC setting. SC games didn't really need more than a few cliff levels. Day/Night cycle wouldn't really add anything either.

If they made a proper WC3 HD or a WC4, these things should definitely be in it. But I wouldn't call SC2 a step back in THAT regard. It has a number of other problems.
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  #37  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:44 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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It's not really needed. WC3 is, like, super-moddable on itself, with WoW models pretty much insertible through the editor, so doing it in HD does not require dealing with SC2 and stuff. Have you seen, say, this map? Even terrain is moddable.

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
If it's not free then I don't see many people buying this, like I doubt it would pop a million. Even hundreds of thousands is not guaranteed.

If it is free then an updated WC3 might mean Blizzard is catching up with other companies and showing some common sense at last.
Common sense? More like WASTING MAH MANHOURS! Do you want a free WC3, or a new dungeon? RIP Raid Tier!
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  #38  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:50 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Converting WoW models was kinda annoying. All those extra meshes you had to remove...
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  #39  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:56 AM
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Can't look at any of the stuff right now. We sure this is real?

Edit: Ok, checked on my phone. Not a lot here but seems legit?

Is it too much to hope for new content too? Would love for this to somehow be an "HD WarCraft Trilogy" where they port over WC3 mostly the same but rebuild the first two games in the new engine as well. This is way too much to ask I'm sure but I can dream

Edit 2: And it just occurred to me.... Suddenly the random addition of WC3 high res heroes to the SC2 editor makes perfect sense...
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  #40  
Old 09-29-2015, 06:33 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Is it too much to hope for new content too? Would love for this to somehow be an "HD WarCraft Trilogy" where they port over WC3 mostly the same but rebuild the first two games in the new engine as well. This is way too much to ask I'm sure but I can dream
Hey, they said at one point they were working on something like that.

Sort of. Maybe possibly.

It'd be nice to see, even if it'd probably suck. Just as long as they're not TOO ambitious with the plot.
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  #41  
Old 09-30-2015, 08:45 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
It's not really needed. WC3 is, like, super-moddable on itself, with WoW models pretty much insertible through the editor, so doing it in HD does not require dealing with SC2 and stuff. Have you seen, say, this map? Even terrain is moddable.


Common sense? More like WASTING MAH MANHOURS! Do you want a free WC3, or a new dungeon? RIP Raid Tier!
I wish blizzard would use manhours more. I want to SJW troll them.
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  #42  
Old 09-30-2015, 08:48 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I wish blizzard would use manhours more. I want to SJW troll them.
Well you're too late. Them's orchours now.
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  #43  
Old 10-01-2015, 04:03 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
It's not really needed. WC3 is, like, super-moddable on itself, with WoW models pretty much insertible through the editor, so doing it in HD does not require dealing with SC2 and stuff. Have you seen, say, this map? Even terrain is moddable.
Ability editing is kinda limited though.
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  #44  
Old 10-13-2015, 09:53 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Any news on that? With the Blizzcon shedule out, there doesn't seem to be anything coming out on this.
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  #45  
Old 10-14-2015, 08:57 AM
Andrettin Andrettin is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
The best outcome would be for them to improve SC2 with all those things that didn't make it from W3, and then release it there. I could see W3HD working as a standalone just like Heroes of the Storm, but I think that would be a mistake. They need to unify all their SC2-engine-based games into a single platform around the arcade, for fuck's sake. But hey it's Blizzard, killers of the mapmaking community. Don't expect anything out of them.
Yeah, it's amazing how many things they did wrong that ended up doing away with SC2's mapmaking potential. Not the least in saying they own anything made with the Galaxy Editor (even elements that aren't derivative to SC2).
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  #46  
Old 10-14-2015, 11:56 AM
DarkAngel DarkAngel is offline

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Not the least in saying they own anything made with the Galaxy Editor (even elements that aren't derivative to SC2).
Technically speaking, they've made that claim since the very first editor program for War2. They just never tried to prevent distribution before. Nasty things those EULAs.
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  #47  
Old 10-15-2015, 08:15 AM
Andrettin Andrettin is offline

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Technically speaking, they've made that claim since the very first editor program for War2. They just never tried to prevent distribution before. Nasty things those EULAs.
No, that's a common misunderstanding. It is not true. The wording for the WC2 and WC3 editors was different. They explicitly changed it to not allow something like DotA ever happening again without them having the rights to it.

The "Starcraft II Custom Game Acceptable Use Policy"[1] reads:

"3. Ownership.
Custom Games are and shall remain the sole and exclusive property of Blizzard. Without limiting the foregoing, you hereby assign to Blizzard all of your rights, title and interest in and to all Custom Games, and agree that should Blizzard decide that it is necessary, you agree to execute future assignments promptly upon receiving such a request from Blizzard. Additionally, Blizzard shall have the right to maintain the Custom Game on Blizzard?s Arcade service even if the developer of the Custom Game requests that Blizzard remove the Custom Game from the Arcade service."

The Warcraft III World Editor's license agreement spoke only of the ownership over the program itself, not maps made with it:

"2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including, but not limited to, any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. The Program is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties, and conventions and other laws. All rights are reserved. The Program contains certain licensed materials, and Blizzard's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement."
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  #48  
Old 10-15-2015, 11:08 AM
DarkAngel DarkAngel is offline

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legalese
Are you sure that's the right part? I distinctly remember being infuriated when the War3 editor said all files created using the program were "copyrighted works of Blizzard Entertainment." Then again, people have an amazing capacity to convince themselves of things that never happened.
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  #49  
Old 10-15-2015, 05:26 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Wow. Blizzard still bitter about DotA?
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  #50  
Old 10-16-2015, 08:01 AM
Andrettin Andrettin is offline

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Are you sure that's the right part? I distinctly remember being infuriated when the War3 editor said all files created using the program were "copyrighted works of Blizzard Entertainment." Then again, people have an amazing capacity to convince themselves of things that never happened.
The only part of the license which remotely resembles what you mentioned is this one:

"This software program including any and all subsequent patches (the "Program"), any printed materials, any on-line or electronic documentation, and any and all copies and derivative works of such software program and materials are the copyrighted work of Blizzard Entertainment, a division of Vivendi Universal Games, Inc. and/or its wholly owned subsidiaries, or its suppliers."

Now, one could look at this and think that "derivative works" includes the maps, but it is more complicated than that. The copyright of what a toolkit (like the WC3 editor) outputs (in this case the maps) belongs not to the toolkit's owner, but to the owner of the "input". Otherwise every image produced with Photoshop would belong to Adobe Systems.

So, are WC3 maps a derivative work of Blizzard material? Only insofar that they Blizzard data (unit models, character names, etc.) was part of the "input" that generated those maps. But if you keep only the non-derivative elements of the map; that is, if you keep only the map's design itself, then it is no longer derivative. So once IceFrog took DotA's map design, removed all elements derivative of Blizzard material, and made it into a separate game using its own assets and etc., that (DotA 2) could no longer be said to be a derivative work of Blizzard material.

Now, with the SC2 license it is wholly different. According to their policy, you are transferring your copyright to the entire map (including the map design itself). So it is much worse. Even if you remove all elements derivative of Blizzard material, Blizzard would still own your map. And that sucks, I'm sure many mappers and modders would agree.

Of course, the chance of someone making something that could be transformed into its own standalone game is very slim, a one in a million sort of thing. But modders (like other sorts of creative people) like to dream, that motivates them. And creative people usually thoroughly hate losing the right to their own works (at least if they aren't being paid for that). So yes, I think the SC2 custom game policy has been a significant element in ensuring that a healthy map-making community wouldn't flourish for that game.
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