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  #326  
Old 10-27-2017, 06:43 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'd say to just give them guns, but Warcraft guns aren't that great. And the technology probably existed already anyway.

EDIT: I've been drinking alcohol, so my insight is pretty elevated right now. Forget time travelling to the Troll War; Alleria is there, so she'd probably just wreck it.

What the trolls need is fascism, but a kind that focuses on the Throwing Axe instead of the Italian fasces. Axism. Axist Powers. Only really literally. Like, the Throwing Axe has to be super important to the doctrine. None of this spearthrowing nonsense. The spear is why they haven't recovered yet. Here, let me link an image:


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  #327  
Old 10-27-2017, 06:52 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I'd say to just give them guns, but Warcraft guns aren't that great. And the technology probably existed already anyway.
Wasn't there a troll-made gun drop from Zul'gurub or Zul'aman or something?


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  #328  
Old 10-27-2017, 07:10 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Maybe if you brought them like, Apocalypse.
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  #329  
Old 11-04-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
A troll-sympathizing time traveller has gone back to the ancient Troll War. He/she can share one modern military invention or spellcraft with the trolls, in hopes of changing the outcome.

What technology would you share?
I'm guessing from modern-day Azeroth? Interesting question.

The Troll wars weren't really going all that poorly for the Trolls right up until the Elves shared their magic with the Humans, which allowed them to turn the entire Troll armies into extra-crispy bacon, so presumably, what you'd have to bring back would have to be something to be able to counter the Elves' contribution to the arms race.

I suppose I could instruct the time traveler to grant the Amani the means of developing spellbreaker-type units to disrupt their enemies' spellcasting ability in order to wrest away that advantage from them.

Bonus point: Depending on the in-universe rules for time travel (because I'm still not entirely certain whether Warcraft uses WoD rules or Many Deaths of Chromie rules, or something else entirely), my intervention could very well fail to change anything, and in fact serve as inspiration for what would eventually be the Blood Elves to create their own spellbreakers.
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  #330  
Old 11-23-2017, 12:09 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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It's a shame that so many troll tribes (and entire empires) live in vanilla land, given that this likely means that they'll never receive their own, unique architectural style, like the Drakkari and now the Zandalari and blood trolls did.

The Farraki, for example, could have been based more on the Chimu and Moche cultures, who dwelled in coastal desert areas too, instead of being Meso-American.

Edit:
I wonder whether the Zandalari worship a sun Loa. Not only due to their astrologers in MoP but also because Atal'Dazar is full of stylistic depictions of the sun or a figure with the sun for its head. They look quite a bit like the way the sun god Inti was depicted by the Incas and other Andean civilizations.

Edit:
To illustrate what I said earlier:
Name:  Inti'dazar.jpg
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Last edited by Nazja; 11-23-2017 at 11:06 PM..
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  #331  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
It's a shame that so many troll tribes (and entire empires) live in vanilla land, given that this likely means that they'll never receive their own, unique architectural style, like the Drakkari and now the Zandalari and blood trolls did.

The Farraki, for example, could have been based more on the Chimu and Moche cultures, who dwelled in coastal desert areas too, instead of being Meso-American.

Edit:
I wonder whether the Zandalari worship a sun Loa. Not only due to their astrologers in MoP but also because Atal'Dazar is full of stylistic depictions of the sun or w figure with the sun for its head. They look quite a bit like the way Into was depicted by the Incas and other Andean civilizations.

Edit:
To illustrate what I said earlier:
Bonus point: King Rastakhan's headdress bears a striking similarity to this symbol. Sure, it could just be a purely stylistic choice on Blizzard's part, but it could also just fit a larger, overarching theme in Troll (or just Zandalari) culture.



Personally, I've long rather liked the idea of contrasting Troll culture and mythology with that of the Night Elves which eventually descended from them. So I'd like to find a way to bring it right back around to an old theory that I've kicked around a few times. This would be the theory that Hakkar and Elune are contrasting figures from the same pantheon (Specifically, as iterated in Pyronaptor's original post way back when, Hakkar and Elune as Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca, respectively.

Now naturally, we've seen a whack of new information come out which forces us to reevaluate bits and pieces of the original theory, but I think the general premise still applies. (Note: Most of this is pure speculation which might well be horribly incorrect depending on whatever information came/comes out of Battle for Azeroth which I haven't heard yet, so cut me some slack.)

Hakkar was previously stated to be a Blood God, on much the same level as Elune, who represents the moon. With the announcement of G'huun, however, we've been introduced to another "deity" with blood as a primary domain. Furthermore, we've been told that G'huun is responsible for the corruption of Hir'eek.

So I propose the following modification to the previous model (and I confess, it's not entirely original, as others have made similar bits of speculation): Hakkar was not always the Blood God. Rather, Hakkar was previously the chief deity of the Trollish Pantheon, and was primarily associated with the Sun in a long-since forgotten age. His purpose was perverted, however, when the Titans' experiments unleashed G'huun on Azeroth. This somehow tarnished Hakkar, and transformed him into the Blood God which the Gurubashi would eventually come to worship.

Elune, in this case, might well be an equal to Hakkar who, when seeing that the Trolls' chief deity had been corrupted, sought to start the cycle anew and recreate the Trollish race with an image and purpose which she preferred, leading to the Night Elves we know today.
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  #332  
Old 11-23-2017, 08:07 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Would that make Hakkar An'she?
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  #333  
Old 11-23-2017, 08:37 PM
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Much how I dislike the Nightborne for fucking with elf naming conventions (high elf, blood elf, night elf, void elf, noun elf) I've got the same issue with Zandalari trolls.


Kinda wish they were called "high trolls" instead.
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  #334  
Old 11-23-2017, 09:32 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Hakkar was not always the Blood God. Rather, Hakkar was previously the chief deity of the Trollish Pantheon, and was primarily associated with the Sun in a long-since forgotten age. His purpose was perverted, however, when the Titans' experiments unleashed G'huun on Azeroth. This somehow tarnished Hakkar, and transformed him into the Blood God which the Gurubashi would eventually come to worship.

Elune, in this case, might well be an equal to Hakkar who, when seeing that the Trolls' chief deity had been corrupted, sought to start the cycle anew and recreate the Trollish race with an image and purpose which she preferred, leading to the Night Elves we know today.
This is amazing!
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  #335  
Old 11-23-2017, 11:37 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Solid theory, my good Kell'eck. Very nice.

Just realised that autocorrect had turned Inti into Into. How embarrassing.

By the way, did you know that Inti's sister, Mama Killa, is a moon goddess whose name literally means Mother Moon? Kinda like An'she and Elune, isn't it?

Also worth mentioning, ancient night elves used to sacrifice blood to Elune and she still accepts such sacrifices to this day. Sigsn that she too used to be or was at the verge of being converted into a blood goddess? Or merely signs of a goddess humouring her subjects during ancient, more savage times? (Ferlion would've descended upon us like a vengeful goddess had I not mentioned this fact! You can all thank me for still being alive!)
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  #336  
Old 11-24-2017, 02:44 AM
Pepe Stormstout Pepe Stormstout is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
Would that make Hakkar An'she?
Something something Bleeding Sun something something sun magic = blood magic

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Also worth mentioning, ancient night elves used to sacrifice blood to Elune and she still accepts such sacrifices to this day. Sigsn that she too used to be or was at the verge of being converted into a blood goddess? Or merely signs of a goddess humouring her subjects during ancient, more savage times? (Ferlion would've descended upon us like a vengeful goddess had I not mentioned this fact! You can all thank me for still being alive!)
Another thing worth mentioning, in addition to those Desolace quests where you sacrifice satyr flesh and weapons to Elune, is this bit from the Archaeology artifact Necklace with Elune Pendant:

Quote:
Elune is the primary goddess of the night elves. She is associated with the larger of the two moons, the White Lady. While she is a goddess of peace, she is not a pacifist. One of her aspects is the Night Warrior, who takes the valiant among the dead and sets them riding across the sky as stars.
While not quite as "metal" as the Desolace quests, it does serve as a reminder that while Elune is normally worshipped as a peaceful moon lady, she does have a somewhat martial and bloodthirsty side.
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  #337  
Old 11-24-2017, 05:48 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Much how I dislike the Nightborne for fucking with elf naming conventions (high elf, blood elf, night elf, void elf, noun elf) I've got the same issue with Zandalari trolls.


Kinda wish they were called "high trolls" instead.
Why would a group of altered nobles have similar names to the plebs? Why would the original trolls be named like the plebs?
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  #338  
Old 11-24-2017, 09:16 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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who takes the valiant among the dead and sets them riding across the sky as stars.
And who else has an interest amongst the valiant among the dead?

If Hakkar is the flipside of Elune, then could Elune be associated with the Shadowlands?

Also of note: Mama Killa cries tears of silver.... who else cries tears like that?

I often wondered if Elune was the entity that Odyn gave his eye to....
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  #339  
Old 11-24-2017, 02:14 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Also of note: Mama Killa cries tears of silver.... who else cries tears like that?
And it was believed that lunar eclipses were caused by an animal, in many cases said to be a serpent (Hakkar!), attacking Mama Killa.
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  #340  
Old 11-24-2017, 02:50 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Why would a group of altered nobles have similar names to the plebs? Why would the original trolls be named like the plebs?
The zandalari were the original trolls, but as the other troll societies mutated and evolved they continued to go back to the zandalari for their wisdom and magical know-how. Even after the sundering the Zandalari had cultural authority over the other trolls that would befit their "high" title.
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  #341  
Old 11-24-2017, 03:16 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Zandalari, Farraki, Gurubashi, Amani('shi)... They are missing a secondary/English name, but they don't "fuck with troll naming conventions." That said, I agree that their English/common name should probably be high trolls. Now, can we get a troll name for all the lesser tribes, like Darkspear?

The Shal'dorei... It's a bit tricky to figure out what to call them instead of Nightborne given that they're basically starless night elves, which would be a mouthful.

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  #342  
Old 11-24-2017, 03:57 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Translated literally, shouldn't night elves be "star elves" instead? Children of the blood=blood elves, but children of the stars=night elves? Then Nightborne can be night elves.
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  #343  
Old 11-24-2017, 04:08 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Translated literally, shouldn't night elves be "star elves" instead? Children of the blood=blood elves, but children of the stars=night elves? Then Nightborne can be night elves.
Do you want Starborne riots? 'Cause, that's how you get Starborne riots!
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  #344  
Old 11-24-2017, 04:57 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Zandalari, Farraki, Gurubashi, Amani('shi)... They are missing a secondary/English name, but they don't "fuck with troll naming conventions." That said, I agree that their English/common name should probably be high trolls. Now, can we get a troll name for all the lesser tribes, like Darkspear?
Those are tribe names, not race names. The gurubashi tribe are jungle trolls, the farraki are sand trolls, etc. The Zandalari could be a tribe of "high trolls" and that tribe can be the only extant population of that race, like the Farraki being the only sand troll tribe.

Gurubashi is to Jungle Troll as Stormwind is to human, for instance.

Quote:
The Shal'dorei... It's a bit tricky to figure out what to call them instead of Nightborne given that they're basically starless night elves, which would be a mouthful.
TBH a starless night sky... is a void. I'd be totally for calling them void elves if we weren't getting ourselves void elves elsewhere. I think there were mentions of "Dark Elves" by Medivh in Last Guardian which we assume refer to night elves; but considering Suramar's eastern location and Aegwynn's interaction withh the Tomb of Sargeras, perhaps the nightborne are the Dark Elves Medivh was talking about?

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Do you want Starborne riots? 'Cause, that's how you get Starborne riots!
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  #345  
Old 11-25-2017, 03:33 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Those are tribe names, not race names. The gurubashi tribe are jungle trolls, the farraki are sand trolls, etc. The Zandalari could be a tribe of "high trolls" and that tribe can be the only extant population of that race, like the Farraki being the only sand troll tribe.

Gurubashi is to Jungle Troll as Stormwind is to human, for instance.
Well, yes, that's my point. Zandalari is the name of a tribe, which just like the Farraki, happens to be the only tribe of its race (making it apply to both the tribe and the race). It's not that the name breaks conventions, it's that the common/English name of the race is missing.

I would also go as far as saying that names like Gurubashi and Amani not only refer to a single tribe of forest and jungle trolls but also to the entire races. A Revantusk may not be a member of the Amani tribe, but as a forest troll, he certainly is a part of the Amani culture.

(I know that you mean on the character selection screen. Sorry for being pedantic.)

Last edited by Nazja; 11-25-2017 at 03:47 AM..
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  #346  
Old 11-25-2017, 04:06 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Well, yes, that's my point. Zandalari is the name of a tribe, which just like the Farraki, happens to be the only tribe of its race (making it apply to both the tribe and the race). It's not that the name breaks conventions, it's that the common/English name of the race is missing.

I would also go as far as saying that names like Gurubashi and Amani not only refer to a single tribe of forest and jungle trolls but also to the entire races. A Revantusk may not be a member of the Amani tribe, but as a forest troll, he certainly is a part of the Amani culture.

(I know that you mean on the character selection screen. Sorry for being pedantic.)
I'd say sand trolls is pretty given for the Farraki, it's canon if I recall correctly. As for the Zandalari, I'd guess either mountain, holy, or high trolls.
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  #347  
Old 11-25-2017, 07:25 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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What about "Pure" trolls? Didn't the Zandalari look down on the others? Maybe because the others were "tainted" by their environments.
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  #348  
Old 11-25-2017, 07:57 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I'd say sand trolls is pretty given for the Farraki, it's canon if I recall correctly. As for the Zandalari, I'd guess either mountain, holy, or high trolls.
Yeah, I just used the sand trolls/Farraki as an example of another mono-tribe troll race.

You know, I wonder whether the Farraki were always the only sand troll tribe. They were said to once have been far more prosperous, so it is possible that the ruins we see in Tanaris were once inhabited by sub-tribes.
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  #349  
Old 11-25-2017, 08:00 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Zandalari started out way back when there weren't such things as forest or jungle or sand trolls. They're the original trolls and Zandalari was their tribe name, like Gurubashi or Amani, but since they're the only OG trolls left they've become their own race. It's actually all other troll subraces that fuck with troll naming conventions.
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  #350  
Old 11-25-2017, 08:07 AM
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And then it turns out that (Siame) Quashi is the Zandali word for Darkspear.
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