Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > Halls of Lordaeron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 07-19-2016, 12:33 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

Arch-Druid
Shekinah's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: On a pale horse
Posts: 2,422

Mana

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I can't fault Mormons. I understand that by and large they tend to be good people, now that they've got the polygamy thing out of their system. But I was struck by how ridiculous it was that anyone bought into Joseph Smith's clearly self-serving bullshit back when I was studying American History at high school.
The founding of Mormonism is silly to those outside of the religion, myself included. But I think every religion has silly stuff in it, whether people want to admit to it or not.
__________________
I like to cook. Here's a thread on how it relates to Warcraft.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-19-2016, 12:42 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
The founding of Mormonism is silly to those outside of the religion, myself included. But I think every religion has silly stuff in it, whether people want to admit to it or not.
I agree, and most Mormons seem at least somewhat willing to acknowledge it (judging from the LDS Church's reaction to The Book of Mormon musical).
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-19-2016, 02:21 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

If you've ever been to Jackson County, Missouri you know JS was lying.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-19-2016, 02:48 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,015

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
If you've ever been to Jackson County, Missouri you know JS was lying.
Expound, please?
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-19-2016, 05:08 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Arch-Druid
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,359

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I agree, and most Mormons seem at least somewhat willing to acknowledge it (judging from the LDS Church's reaction to The Book of Mormon musical).
Hey, all I can say is the show is quite good, but the book the is always better.

Ok, that was semi-serious. In all seriousness, our history offers us a lot of inspiration, as well as a few challenges. We know our history quite well. Heritage is important, the good and the bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
If you've ever been to Jackson County, Missouri you know JS was lying.
Funny. I've been there and I am Mormon. I'm not sure where you're going with it.

Until you deign to enlighten us on the subject, I may as well explain what Jackson County Missouri means to us.

In the early days of the Church, Joseph Smith revealed that Jackson County Missouri would be where we would build the city of Zion, the New Jerusalem.

On the subject of Zion, it wasn't just a place, but a society we'd build. We'd endeavor live by what we call the Law of Consecration: a religious Social Utopianism with no poor or rich. Every family would have their own stewardship, and after they'd produced their all, they'd give all of it to their bishop, who would sit with each family and work with them to make sure they had everything they needed. For a people to be Zion, they must be of one heart and one mind. We believe that Enoch managed to create this society before he was taken up to God back in olden days (and we believe he took his whole city with him). The saints in Missouri had a very hard time living up to this.

Additionally we very quickly manged to offend our neighbors. We were mostly out of New York and Pennsylvania, a few from Ohio, so we didn't exactly mesh with slave holding Missourians. We were friendly with the natives, which wasn't popular at the time. That and Social Utopianists don't exactly make for great neighbors when it comes to trade and economy. Eventually, the Missourians ran us out. We did attempt to retake our homes, and that story I'll let our Seminary videos tell:

We did eventually return to Missouri, but our problems with the locals persisted. These were inflamed by problems we had within the Church, both by angry defectors and those who would drive them out. We still weren't living up to the ideals of Zion. The locals attempted to prevent us from voting by force. Skirmishes ensued. Eventually, Governor Lilburn W. Boggs enacted Missouri Executive Order 44, also known as the Extermination Order. We were told to leave or die. The Missourians took the order to heart, and our settlement at Hauns Mill was wiped out. This Executive order stayed on the books until Governor Christopher Bond rescinded it in 1976.

The fighting came to an end at the Siege of Far West. Joseph Smith and other Church leaders were arrested and all of the rest of us were ran out of the State. Smith was given a Military Trial and sentenced to Death. The general placed in charge of execution, Alexander Doniphan, refused to carry out the sentence, and threatened the sentencing General, Samuel D. Lewis with a Murder trial of his own. Smith was sent to Liberty Jail (which at the time was hole in the ground under a cabin). Eventually, Smith escaped, having never stood trial. We built the City of Nauvoo in Illinois, but that's a story for another time.

This is a fairly rough outline based off of what I was taught in Seminary. It was a very brutal time.

We still intend to return to Missouri some day, and buy land there when we get the chance. We aren't quite ready to be Zion yet. We don't live the law of consecration at this time, as we just do regular Tithing and Fast Offerings (fast 24 hours and donate the money we'd have spent on the food for the sake of feeding those who need it within the congregation, as well as other humanitarian efforts). Someday, we will return.

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 07-19-2016 at 06:42 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-19-2016, 06:08 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Funny. I've been there and I am Mormon. I'm not sure where you're going with it.



Hey, all I can say is the show is quite good, but the book the is always better.

Ok, that was semi-serious. In all seriousness, our history offers us a lot of inspiration, as well as a few challenges. We know our history quite well. Heritage is important, the good and the bad.
That's a good way to look at it.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 07-19-2016, 11:50 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


Omacron's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 34,372
BattleTag: Omacron#1477

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
It feels like you respect the former more than the latter. They both just look like groups that pretend to have religious believes so they can do Flying Spaghetti Monster things.

EDIT: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Temple

Satanic Temple was founded two years ago? That makes the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion older by almost a decade.
The organization that is the Satanic Temple was founded years ago but there is historical and archaeological "evidence" of Satanism going back to the late Roman Empire. It fits all of the academic definitions of a "bona fide" religion and must be treated that way by the law.

The fact that the creed includes disdain for other religions is neither unique nor disqualifying.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 07-20-2016, 04:01 AM
Korath Korath is offline

Hon hon hon
Korath's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toulouse
Posts: 4,641

Default

I find it quite surprising that there exist so much esoteric groups in the anglo-saxon and Northern worlds. I don't know of even one in France, especially in my town. Why do you think that it is the case ? Is it because of the secularism in France which is held in higher esteem than elsewhere ?
__________________
"Kanedaaa!"
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 07-20-2016, 04:36 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

The US first amendment says the government can't pass a law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion. To me that means the government shouldn't force you to be a certain religion or force you to partake in things that violate your conscience. The state can't demand you pray at a certain time or wear a burka. The state also shouldn't make you violate your religious beliefs without a compelling reason. Some people seem intent to use the state to marginalize and crush religion(at least certain religions) in general because they think religious people are stupid and dangerous. What they speak out loud gives away their intentions. Donald Trump's Muslim ban shouldn't survive constitutional scrutiny and neither would a lot of the laws you see in the middle east.

Religion should be treated like any other idea. People should be able to peacefully evangelize and it shouldn't be a social taboo. Ideas should be debated and people should attempt to persuade each other about a religious position just like they can any other idea. You should be able to pray in public and people should have to tolerate it. They don't get to be in a safe space and become overly sensitive to religious ideas. The state doesn't exist to protect you from hearing a religious sentiment or to try to squash it out. There is a reason why religion shares the same amendment as freedom of expression and freedom of the press.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07-20-2016, 05:39 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Expound, please?
It's no Eden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Funny. I've been there and I am Mormon. I'm not sure where you're going with it.
See the above, that is correct, isn't it? The belief that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County?
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:01 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,015

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The organization that is the Satanic Temple was founded years ago but there is historical and archaeological "evidence" of Satanism going back to the late Roman Empire. It fits all of the academic definitions of a "bona fide" religion and must be treated that way by the law.

The fact that the creed includes disdain for other religions is neither unique nor disqualifying.
Yet other than name, there's no similarity or connection between the Satanic Temple and the groups that we have "evidence" for in the past.

I'm actually unfamiliar with the academic definitions of religion as used by U.S. law. Is historical connection one of them?
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:18 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Arch-Druid
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,359

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
It's no Eden.



See the above, that is correct, isn't it? The belief that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County?
Not quite. I can see where you'd get confused. Jackson County is where we intend to build Zion.

Adam-ondi-Ahman is a holy site to us located in Daviess County. Joseph Smith declared that to be the place Adam and Eve settled down after they left Eden. As such, I suppose one could infer that the Garden of Eden would be in the vicinity, and I imagine more than a couple early latter-day-saints theorized on the subject, but there's no revelation or doctrine on the location of Eden. Personally, I doubt Eden is on the Earth any more.

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 07-20-2016 at 06:23 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:37 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,015

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Not quite. I can see where you'd get confused. Jackson County is where we intend to build Zion.

Adam-ondi-Ahman is a holy site to us located in Daviess County. Joseph Smith declared that to be the place Adam and Eve settled down after they left Eden. As such, I suppose one could infer that the Garden of Eden would be in the vicinity, and I imagine more than a couple early latter-day-saints theorized on the subject, but there's no revelation or doctrine on the location of Eden. Personally, I doubt Eden is on the Earth any more.
I... didn't realize Mormons believed Adam and Eve sailed to North America and settled in Missouri.

. . .

Menel, why do you guys think the Hebrew scriptures were silent on this, and that there were no other writings to commit these activities to historic memory, so that every trace and evidence was lost until Smith received his revelation?
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:46 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,011

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I... didn't realize Mormons believed Adam and Eve sailed to North America and settled in Missouri.
Right?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:06 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Arch-Druid
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,359

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I... didn't realize Mormons believed Adam and Eve sailed to North America and settled in Missouri.

. . .

Menel, why do you guys think the Hebrew scriptures were silent on this, and that there were no other writings to commit these activities to historic memory, so that every trace and evidence was lost until Smith received his revelation?
Actually, no sailing to America for Adam and Eve. Where ever Eden was, they walked to Missouri from there. That said, we do believe everyone else and their dog did sail to America: the Jaredites, the Nephites/Lamanites, and the Mulekites.

If you think about it, we probably place all Pre-Noah Biblical History here, which does raise issues (such as all those Rivers and places named in Genesis).

Lack of Biblical/Historical record is nothing new to us. Unlike the Bible, there's no correlating the Book of Mormon to historical sites other than I suppose Cumorah. We can't visit the ruins of Zarahemla, whereas Jerusalem still stands. We don't know what river was the Waters of Sebus, unlike the River Jordan.

We do seem to put a lot more emphasis on North America than any other Abrahamic Religion. We believe America to be a Holy Land with a Blessing and Curse attached to it. We believe that amazing things will happen here before the end. We put history here that no one else does. Do I find this somewhat disconcerting? Actually, yeah. But, my testimony of the Gospel isn't rooted in Geography. It's based on a relationship that I've built with my God. I trust it will all be straightened out in the end.

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 07-20-2016 at 07:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:07 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,163

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Almost all religions pre-Christianity and up to the Modern Age share a multitude of similarities, most religion is rooted in the worship of the sun and the passing of the seasons. It is an expression of humanity attempting to comprehend the system that grants it life, sans science.

The concept of the "messiah" is irrevocably linked to the death and rebirth of the sun during the winter solstice, as is the endless repetition of prophecies heralding the doom and salvation of the world at the hand of said sun by going away and coming back.

The details vary, the symbolic root is always there.
I loathe this sort of churlishly simplistic reductionism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
What historical documents are there about Jesus? I recall there might be a record of him on a census list somewhere and maybe a record of his execution? Basically all we know of Jesus (and I guess to a slightly lesser extent Muhammad) came from their followers and is appropriately awe inspiring.
We have more historical evidence for the existence of Jesus than we have for many other historical figures whose existence we take for granted (e.g. Socrates).

Last edited by Genesis; 07-20-2016 at 07:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:30 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

Elune
C9H20's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,017

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I loathe this sort of churlishly simplistic reductionism.

We have more historical evidence for the existence of Jesus than we have for many other historical figures whose existence we take for granted (e.g. Socrates).
Well, you're the Biblical expert (though I always found that an odd area of study for someone of your beliefs). How many documents from that era mention Jesus? And how many can fairly reliably said to be about him and not some other person named Jesus?
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:56 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,163

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Well, you're the Biblical expert (though I always found that an odd area of study for someone of your beliefs). How many documents from that era mention Jesus? And how many can fairly reliably said to be about him and not some other person named Jesus?
Primarily we have two independent sources: Tacitus mentions Jesus and his crucifixion by Pontius in Annals and we also have a mention by Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews.

It's not just being named in documents themselves that give him historical credence, but also the nature of his narrative, namely the fact that he was crucified by the Romans. Crucifixion is not exactly the sort of reputable act that you would want for a founding religious figure when evangelizing to Roman citizens in the Roman Empire. It's why even atheist/agnostic New Testament scholars such as Bart Ehrman have little doubts about the existence of a Jesus of Nazareth.

But yes, most of what we know about his life, unsurprisingly, does come from his followers (i.e. early proto-Christians), primarily in the epistles and Gospels, though these are not exactly given too much historical weight in terms of biographical veracity.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 07-20-2016, 08:37 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Arch-Druid
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,359

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Primarily we have two independent sources: Tacitus mentions Jesus and his crucifixion by Pontius in Annals and we also have a mention by Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews.

It's not just being named in documents themselves that give him historical credence, but also the nature of his narrative, namely the fact that he was crucified by the Romans. Crucifixion is not exactly the sort of reputable act that you would want for a founding religious figure when evangelizing to Roman citizens in the Roman Empire. It's why even atheist/agnostic New Testament scholars such as Bart Ehrman have little doubts about the existence of a Jesus of Nazareth.

But yes, most of what we know about his life, unsurprisingly, does come from his followers (i.e. early proto-Christians), primarily in the epistles and Gospels, though these are not exactly given too much historical weight in terms of biographical veracity.
In regards to these pronto-Christians, are there any doubts about them? The life, death, ministry, etc. of Peter, John, or Paul?
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 07-20-2016, 08:47 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

Eternal
Taintedmage's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,790

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korath View Post
I find it quite surprising that there exist so much esoteric groups in the anglo-saxon and Northern worlds. I don't know of even one in France, especially in my town. Why do you think that it is the case ? Is it because of the secularism in France which is held in higher esteem than elsewhere ?
It's a history thing mainly.
The 1800s in the UK brought with it the rise of spiritualism, seances, and multiple magical organizations such as the Golden Dawn,and THeosophy.
These would later include things in the 1900s such as Wicca (1950s), Thelema, and Satanism (1970S-80s).
That and the English have a history for Gentleman's clubs of all sorts of flavours.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 07-20-2016, 08:55 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,163

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
In regards to these pronto-Christians, are there any doubts about them? The life, death, ministry, etc. of Peter, John, or Paul?
Not too much doubt about their general existence, though a lot of known unknowns about their life, death, ministry, etc. A lot of what we have comes through religious tradition and non-canonical texts that nevertheless impacted that tradition.

Paul usually receives the brunt of attention but that's mainly because we have more of his writings (and things written in his name) and such to argue about. But kinda like with Jesus, there was little, if any, reason for non-Christians to care about these people or who they were at the time. And it is through Paul that we also get non-Gospel mention of Peter in the Letter to the Galatians, but we know little of his actual life, death, ministry, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 07-20-2016, 08:56 AM
Korath Korath is offline

Hon hon hon
Korath's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toulouse
Posts: 4,641

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
It's a history thing mainly.
The 1800s in the UK brought with it the rise of spiritualism, seances, and multiple magical organizations such as the Golden Dawn,and THeosophy.
These would later include things in the 1900s such as Wicca (1950s), Thelema, and Satanism (1970S-80s).
That and the English have a history for Gentleman's clubs of all sorts of flavours.
Yeah, that's probably the main reason. However, it seems to be French branches of those esoteric groups, but they gravitate toward the Far-Right, so I think it was normal I didn't know of them.
__________________
"Kanedaaa!"
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 07-20-2016, 11:48 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

Elune
C9H20's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,017

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
In regards to these pronto-Christians, are there any doubts about them? The life, death, ministry, etc. of Peter, John, or Paul?
Haha, what a coincidentally awesome typo.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 07-20-2016, 01:20 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

Arch-Druid
Shekinah's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: On a pale horse
Posts: 2,422

Mana

When I was in St. Louis, there was a park I would take my son to that had a historical site tied to it where they moved old houses to and such. They had Mormons there dressed up in old-fashioned clothes who taught me and my husband a little bit of the history, bringing up Missouri Executive Order 44 (though I didn't know there was a skirmish against Mormons outside of St. Louis), Nauvoo, and so on.

Since I'm back in Illinois, I really need to make a trip to Nauvoo for the history sometime. I also want to see my husband try his luck with old-timey toys that used to be popular among children. He's already mastered spinning tops made out of dried squash.
__________________
I like to cook. Here's a thread on how it relates to Warcraft.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 07-20-2016, 02:05 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


Omacron's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 34,372
BattleTag: Omacron#1477

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Yet other than name, there's no similarity or connection between the Satanic Temple and the groups that we have "evidence" for in the past.

I'm actually unfamiliar with the academic definitions of religion as used by U.S. law. Is historical connection one of them?
I was dating a lawyer for a time who had eyes on being a judge some day, so all I learned about this comes from her, a single source which is biased.

Basically, what is and is not a religion is entirely subjective and up to judges as the constitution kinda explicitly prevents us from settling it. Most judges have to rely on legal precedent and therefore they use a combination of historical evidence and size of the religion. The government definitely considers Scientology a religion and it's only a few decades old, and the government also considers Baha'i a religion and they only have a handful of followers, so it's a combination of the two.

That being said, the Satanic Temple has about as much connection, ironically, to the Satanism of medieval witch-hunts as contemporary Mormonism has to early Christianity, but there's still a clear continuity (mostly based on being a dick)
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
realspace, serious business

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.