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  #4026  
Old 02-13-2018, 06:06 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Sylvanas is right
As was Thrall, when he had the same basic plan 15 years ago (in real-world time) and set sail for Kalimdor.

Before WoW decided the Horde just had to have an entrenched and openly antagonistic foothold on the continent it tried its damnedest to escape from and leave behind forever.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:13 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
As was Thrall, when he had the same basic plan 15 years ago (in real-world time) and set sail for Kalimdor.

Before WoW decided the Horde just had to have an entrenched and openly antagonistic foothold on the continent it tried its damnedest to escape from and leave behind forever.
Pretty sure real time = WoW time at this point. Has there ever been a time skip?
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  #4028  
Old 02-13-2018, 06:40 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I'm obviouly not the first to point this out, but "Capture" is interesting word choice, and introduces a number of potential issues. An occupation force would have to be big, and for the capture to mean anything at all, she would need to deal with forces on the continent.

There's also one other matter... Undercity hasn't happened yet, but she seems to already suggest this continental separation. Did she just neglect her own borders in talking about that or did Lordaeron go all according to plan?
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:44 PM
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Story forum sucks

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  #4030  
Old 02-13-2018, 06:44 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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So the Goth Elves play a critical role in conquering Undercity?

very nice.... very nice.....

My main will still be my human DK, but I am going to put my gothelf warlock into second place.

Considering that Sylvanas wants to build a "Fortress Kalimdor" and paint the continent red, this does bring up some questions I hope will be answered.

Considering her plan was to kick the Alliance out of Kalimdor, did she not think that the Alliance would do the same to her and kick her out of her powerbase in Lorderon? Was she planning to use Teldrassil as bait to draw the Alliance to her and then wipe them out?

Did she really think that she could remove the Alliance from Kalimdor and then maintain control of Lordaeron?

Judging the amount of firepower the Alliance brought to UC, along with the nelves, did the Alliance actually show up at Teldrassil? Or perhaps and this will lead into the next point: Just some idle speculation, but what if Sylvanas didn't burn down Teldrassil, but it was the night elves who did it in order to prevent it from falling into her hands? Under the orders of either Tyrande or Mal?
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  #4031  
Old 02-13-2018, 07:01 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post

Judging the amount of firepower the Alliance brought to UC, along with the nelves, did the Alliance actually show up at Teldrassil? Or perhaps and this will lead into the next point: Just some idle speculation, but what if Sylvanas didn't burn down Teldrassil, but it was the night elves who did it in order to prevent it from falling into her hands? Under the orders of either Tyrande or Mal?
I'm not yet sure how much we can make of the Night Elven presence at the Fall of Lordaeron. There are also Night Elf sentinels in Stormwind, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's where the bulk of their presence is, at least until we find the tents. Tyrande and Malfurion were also conspicuously absent from the Fall of Lordaeron (at least from what I've seen). As with most of the spoilers so far: that's either really good or really bad.
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  #4032  
Old 02-13-2018, 07:34 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Pretty sure real time = WoW time at this point. Has there ever been a time skip?
Not exactly; so far they've clung to this idea that Vanilla and each expansion span about a year, which would put the passage of in-universe time as much as nine years behind the passage of real time since WoW began.

Even if they were each two years long (perhaps figuring on a year in-between), it'd still be off by about one year, and that's before accounting for just how much time passed between WC3 and Vanilla WoW.
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  #4033  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:00 PM
GIPlayer GIPlayer is offline

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Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
I'm not at all surprised Sylvanas didn't tell them to bring Saurfang back, since he'd be the first one to go against her if/when she does something stupid.
Like using plague for example?
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  #4034  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:45 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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The concept that the night elves themselves burn Teldrassil is extremely intriguing!

Imagine:

Sylvanas is rallying the might of the Horde against the night elven lands in northern Kalimdor, and the Alliance makes it seem like their armies are moving there for a great ultimate confrontation. Thus, she isn't worried about Lordaeron. When the Horde begins to climb Teldrassil... they realize they've been played. The night elves have already evacuated, to Val'sharah. Teldrassil os nearly empty. Malfurion sounds the horn and the World Tree burns, killing the Horde troops within and sending flaming branches falling down upon the fleet below.

The armies of the Alliance instead march upon Lordaeron.

The kaldorei build a. New capital around the Temple of Elune, and regarisson Black Rook Hold, as well as repair the Moon Guard Stronghold to defend against the Nightborne. They then ally with the Court of Farondis, dividing the Broken Isles.
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  #4035  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:51 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Honestly assuming this isn't Sylvanas feeding the player some line to convince them she isn't planning to genocide the Alliance by presenting some sort of mutual splitting of the planet between them...this all sounds an awful lot like Sylvanas being Garrosh. He also only wanted Kalimdor for the Horde. He also started out thinking if he just took over that continent for them, they could have their safe, secure home and just keep the Alliance out from then on.

Except it predictably didn't work out like that, so he decided the only way to take and keep Kalimdor was to exterminate the Alliance entirely.

Because for all his character problems, even Garrosh eventually realized that people who can still fight back don't just let you conquer their home and say "well, fair play to that. We'll just live over here instead and let you keep it." The only way to achieve this world "without conflict" her way is if she takes Kalimdor and demolishes the Alliance everywhere else so thoroughly they can never retaliate.

The idea that she can drive the Alliance out and they'll be content with the Eastern Kingdoms is frankly the plan of a naive fool at best and an outright drooling simpleton at worst. She's outright adopting the same mindset as Garrosh, only it's worse, because she actually has the benefit of very recent hindsight supporting why it didn't work for him and yet she's apparently still doing it anyway.

That said, her explanation smells like BS to me, given that it would require the blood elves to abandon their homeland and the Sunwell. For her "plan" to work she'd have to either force them to leave Quel'thalas, deliberately let Silvermoon fall to the Alliance so they'd have no choice but to flee, or kick them out of the Horde. The first and second are unlikely, as I suspect the blood elves would sooner all die fighting than let yet another invader take their homeland away from them (and leaving them to die seems like it would turn the rest of the Horde against her), and the third is just as unlikely because I just plain don't see Blizzard removing a playable race from either of the factions.

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-13-2018 at 08:53 PM..
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  #4036  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:58 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
The concept that the night elves themselves burn Teldrassil is extremely intriguing!

Imagine:

Sylvanas is rallying the might of the Horde against the night elven lands in northern Kalimdor, and the Alliance makes it seem like their armies are moving there for a great ultimate confrontation. Thus, she isn't worried about Lordaeron. When the Horde begins to climb Teldrassil... they realize they've been played. The night elves have already evacuated, to Val'sharah. Teldrassil os nearly empty. Malfurion sounds the horn and the World Tree burns, killing the Horde troops within and sending flaming branches falling down upon the fleet below.

The armies of the Alliance instead march upon Lordaeron.

The kaldorei build a. New capital around the Temple of Elune, and regarisson Black Rook Hold, as well as repair the Moon Guard Stronghold to defend against the Nightborne. They then ally with the Court of Farondis, dividing the Broken Isles.
I'm a bit skeptical that Horde players would stand for that. I think they'd start asking how Night Elves would be able to hold a presence against two allied races.... and I would too. The last I saw Val'sharah, it was in horrible shape. The Highmountain are holding well.... a mountain... and the Horde has Suramar.

I guess it would be mildly entertaining though to add another item to the list of "Things Malfurion has blown up". We could start calling him "Michael".
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  #4037  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:12 PM
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Sylvanas's plan baffles me for a few reasons, some of which ARM also covered.
1. This is before the Undercity battle, so what, was she planning to just abandon her seat of power? Why try to conquer Kalimdor instead of the Eastern Kingdoms?
2. Why does she think that kicking the Alliance out of Kalimdor is going to bring peace, how can she not expect them to fight back?
3. How does it mesh with her wanting to attack Stormwind in the book?
4. Why is she preaching about this being for the good of the Horde when that has never been something she's cared about before?
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  #4038  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:20 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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It's almost like Golden's tweet about this early datamined stuff not being the full picture or even fully correct is something people should be listening to more. Blizz should just start encrypting broadcast text.
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  #4039  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:56 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is online now

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
Sylvanas's plan baffles me for a few reasons, some of which ARM also covered.
1. This is before the Undercity battle, so what, was she planning to just abandon her seat of power? Why try to conquer Kalimdor instead of the Eastern Kingdoms?
2. Why does she think that kicking the Alliance out of Kalimdor is going to bring peace, how can she not expect them to fight back?
3. How does it mesh with her wanting to attack Stormwind in the book?
4. Why is she preaching about this being for the good of the Horde when that has never been something she's cared about before?
Perhaps the stuff with the Desolate Council has lead to Sylvanas turning away from the Undercity/Forsaken and seeing the Horde proper as her new meat shields?

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It's almost like Golden's tweet about this early datamined stuff not being the full picture or even fully correct is something people should be listening to more. Blizz should just start encrypting broadcast text.
Also this.
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  #4040  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:12 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
It's almost like Golden's tweet about this early datamined stuff not being the full picture or even fully correct is something people should be listening to more. Blizz should just start encrypting broadcast text.
So...is speculation is something one should only do when all of the data is in and one is already certain of what's happening?

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-13-2018 at 10:26 PM..
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  #4041  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:26 PM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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It' not the whole picture but it's enough to get the linework in.

And frankly, it's nothing new.

Horde Warchief has grand plan for the Horde and they end up firing first. Just like always.

Why they keep bothering to pretend they know how to write any other way is just puzzling
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  #4042  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:39 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
Sylvanas's plan baffles me for a few reasons, some of which ARM also covered.
1. This is before the Undercity battle, so what, was she planning to just abandon her seat of power? Why try to conquer Kalimdor instead of the Eastern Kingdoms?
2. Why does she think that kicking the Alliance out of Kalimdor is going to bring peace, how can she not expect them to fight back?
3. How does it mesh with her wanting to attack Stormwind in the book?
4. Why is she preaching about this being for the good of the Horde when that has never been something she's cared about before?
On 4. I think we can say pretty certainly that Sylvanas understands the value of propaganda and that you can't necessarily take what she has to say at face value.

Does Sylvanas honestly care about Orc children? I don't know, why would she? The player character would obviously care about Orc children, and I'd expect Sylvanas to know that, but am I convinced that she's being genuine? No, I'm not.... which again brings us back to that word "capture", of course.

But that's all I'll say for now.
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  #4043  
Old 02-13-2018, 11:37 PM
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Those lines feel like Sylvanas found Garrosh's diary and started to read out of it and add something to be sympathized for.

So yeah, it feels weird :p
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  #4044  
Old 02-14-2018, 12:09 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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So...is speculation is something one should only do when all of the data is in and one is already certain of what's happening?
No but maybe later than the 3rd week of Alpha when there's a lot of placeholders and other things that will never ever see the light of day and that includes broadcast text for something that probably won't even be open for testing till halfway in the Beta.
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  #4045  
Old 02-14-2018, 12:10 AM
Krainz Krainz is online now

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Sylvanas' lines are very consistent with her WC3 incarnation.

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Can you point me to where can I find those lines before telling me I'm spewing nonsense because of information I have clearly not read?
http://www.wowhead.com/news=281635/b...ilers#zandalar
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  #4046  
Old 02-14-2018, 05:16 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
So the Goth Elves play a critical role in conquering Undercity?

very nice.... very nice.....

My main will still be my human DK, but I am going to put my gothelf warlock into second place.

Considering that Sylvanas wants to build a "Fortress Kalimdor" and paint the continent red, this does bring up some questions I hope will be answered.

Considering her plan was to kick the Alliance out of Kalimdor, did she not think that the Alliance would do the same to her and kick her out of her powerbase in Lorderon? Was she planning to use Teldrassil as bait to draw the Alliance to her and then wipe them out?

Did she really think that she could remove the Alliance from Kalimdor and then maintain control of Lordaeron?

Judging the amount of firepower the Alliance brought to UC, along with the nelves, did the Alliance actually show up at Teldrassil? Or perhaps and this will lead into the next point: Just some idle speculation, but what if Sylvanas didn't burn down Teldrassil, but it was the night elves who did it in order to prevent it from falling into her hands? Under the orders of either Tyrande or Mal?
Speculation time, part 2:

I'm pretty sure Sylvanas considered all of the above, and all the reasoning we see in the datamined text is just her convincing the others to go along with her plans. Her goal was to wipe out the Alliance, pure and simple. So, she gives a fake objective to the rest of the Horde, make them play along, and when things escalate it's too late to stop.

Sylvanas says she wants to capture Teldrassil, but then goes and burns it down to make the Alliance pissed off.

Sylvanas then was probably planning for the attack on Lordaeron. She would use the plague and the azerite weapon to wipe out the Alliance main force and win the war. Except that this time the Alliance is not playing around. So, the plague fails, the weapon fails, the Horde was not ready to face the void elves (and I'll guess lightforged draenei too) and everything goes to hell.

Now, Sylvanas' big plan fails and the war escalates even further, so both factions search for an armada to bolster their forces. Thus, BfA begins.
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  #4047  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:36 AM
Azurehax Azurehax is offline

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Anyone who expects Sylvanas to literally be a Garrosh repeat isn't paying attention. Afrasiabi wanted to make Garrosh turn into a more headstrong but proper warchief, or I should say a character that grows into his position over time, but Metzen had a different thing in mind and wanted to turn him into a villain from the beginning one that is hellbent on Orc supremacy. The Stonetalon quest is the odity, not everything else, as he said once.

They have been seeding this turnover for Sylvanas' for a while now, and made even more apperant in the Broken Shore, the fact that she asks and hears the council and opinions of the other leaders. People are saying that it's just propaganda, but I don't buy it, they've put her on the spotlight to develop her, not remain just as she just started.

I'm very interested in the notion of Sylvanas extending her line of protection to the Horde at large as a character arc. And I really like how they have maintained that very in-character line of thought (so far).

She died and fought honorably to defend Silvermoon, only to be betrayed by Dar'khan, die horribly, and be made to serve as she watched her kingdom burn, she got jackshit in return. She's a character with deep trauma (Huh, just like Saurfang), being undead notwithstanding , that views protection as something that will in turn mean her and as we are seeing, the Horde at large to prosper.

We are *obviously* missing a lot of pieces in this (they need to start encrypting dialog), but it's also worth considering that nothing here is ''HAHAHA mustache twirling'' it's a very in character notion and one that won't end with her being a Raid Boss as some for some reason are expecting, and more likely one of a sacrifice. People who just expect them to literally do Siege electric bogaloo are either just not paying attention or are hoping that it's the case.

Last edited by Azurehax; 02-14-2018 at 07:39 AM..
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  #4048  
Old 02-14-2018, 08:52 AM
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I don't expect Sylvanas will go the Garrosh route, I'm just pointing out that she's always been pro-war. She wants to wipe out any threats against her.

I don't think she will make the Horde turn against her in the same way Garrosh did. She's a manipulator, something Garrosh never were. She convinces others to work on her best interests. The Horde fights for the Horde, so she becomes the Horde.

About her end, I don't think she will be a raid boss. I expect her death to happen in some cinematic, maybe in a way that will spark further conflict instead of closing it. But I really doubt she will go down in a heroic sacrifice. I may be wrong, but, in my mind, she will never sacrifice herself for anyone (except, maybe, Nathanos).

But she may die in such a way that the Horde perceives it as sacrifice. Or under cowardly tactics from the enemy. Or she's hoisted by her own petard, with a plan of her backfiring horribly, but the Horde does not see it that way. And that will only make things worse.
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  #4049  
Old 02-14-2018, 09:08 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I don't think it's entirely fair to say that people just aren't paying attention. BfA is playing a lot of similar notes to Cataclysm already, and if history is any guide, "proper" Warchiefs don't live long.

Conflict starts by shoving Night Elves in the fridge? Check.

Warchief wants Lebensraum? Check.

Warchief spouts lines that imply an obsessive need for personal control of the Horde? Check.

Prominent figures in the Horde are shown repressing or building conflicts with the new leader because they worry about said leader abandoning what the Horde stands for? Check.

Do I want to be right about this? I think by now I've made it plain that I don't want to be right about most of what I predict, and this isn't an exception. Some Horde players are over the moon and others are having a meltdown. I feel for the latter group.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:26 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I don't think it's entirely fair to say that people just aren't paying attention. BfA is playing a lot of similar notes to Cataclysm already, and if history is any guide, "proper" Warchiefs don't live long.

Conflict starts by shoving Night Elves in the fridge? Check.

Warchief wants Lebensraum? Check.

Warchief spouts lines that imply an obsessive need for personal control of the Horde? Check.

Prominent figures in the Horde are shown repressing or building conflicts with the new leader because they worry about said leader abandoning what the Horde stands for? Check.

Do I want to be right about this? I think by now I've made it plain that I don't want to be right about most of what I predict, and this isn't an exception. Some Horde players are over the moon and others are having a meltdown. I feel for the latter group.
I see a few differences, thought they may be just me wishing things go differently now. Back in Cataclysm, the Horde was supporting Garrosh until he started sacrificing troops and pushing other leaders too far. This time, Saurfang's jail time may be a way to put all rogue Horde elements away so the Horde fully supports Sylvanas, and I don't see her repeating Garrosh's mistake of mistreating her subjects.

I saw Garrosh's war as a faction conflict that was doomed to end with the Horde turning against itself. This time, I think Blizzard is planning to go faction conflict all the way.

I don't even expect the war to end this expansion...

-------------------------

Edit: Totally random thought:
Why did the Loa pointed Sylvanas as Warchief?
Well: Warchief Sylvanas leads the Zandalari into the Horde, and the Horde into Zandalar, in order to save the Loa from G'huun? Maybe there's even more to it further down the road?
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