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  #26  
Old 02-09-2018, 09:05 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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This treads on other threads, but there are five reasons I am unsympathetic to the costs and resources argument.

1. Activision-Blizzard has engaged in aggressive cost cutting in spite of increasing revenues. SuperBunnyHop's video on how American Video Game companies avoid paying income tax is a great display of this - he addresses the costs point towards the end. Now, I understand where Warcraft is on the BCG Matrix, but I also believe that this kind of short term thinking is bad for the long term health of the franchise. (See also: the Extra Credits video on losing player trust)

2. Blizzard was in no way obligated to write the massive, all consuming stories that they did. My discussion in the thread about whether there are problems inherent in WoW's storytelling gets deeper into that.

3. I reject the idea flatly that in order to give to one set of players, you must take from the other, and the Fall of Lordaeron demonstrates this. Both sides can come out feeling powerful, competent, and confident going into future content.

4. Alternatively, you can just leave certain races alone. Night Elves have nothing to do with Battle for Azeroth other than they were gutpunched again at the beginning of it. Giving them that "content" actually costs the company more, both in lost sales and development time.

5. I as a player do not care about the company's cost constraints. If they are failing to give people the product they pay for, regardless of the reasons for that failure, those players are perfectly entitled to take their business elsewhere. It is certainly not my job to pay for content that is adverse to my interests as a player.
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:12 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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There is something in what you say, but I am not saying that Blizzard cannot please both parties- only that they have not been able to, for whatever reason. And until they resolve this problem, Night Elf players and traditional Alliance players will always care about different things. So there is difficulty finding a common ground between both, because undoubtedly one side is unhappy about what is happening to their race whilst the other is pleased. And Blizzard seems to really love symmetry- so if the Horde lose Lordaeron, they make the Alliance lose Night Elven lands. Believe me, I'd much rather they just leave the night elven lands out of this equation altogether- this story should be about Lordaeron. Night Elf fans should not have to pay for content that is shafting their favourite race.

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  #28  
Old 02-09-2018, 09:24 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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My point then is probably more pedantic than it seems. To me, saying that Blizzard couldn't do it implies that they had no other set of choices than the route they took. I reject that, there is incalculable possibility for how this could have turned out, but they took the routes they did, and accordingly, failed to please both parties.

As to your mention of Night Elf players and Alliance players having different priorities, that's true of all races. Orcs don't necessarily align with the Forsaken. Dwarves don't even necessarily align with humans all of the time. I also don't think they have to - those differences could be interesting to explore, rather than having them hammered away in pursuit of a unifying "faction identity".
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:58 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Generally speaking a victory in the Eastern Kingdoms means a victory for all the Alliance races in that continent. Dwarves are the closest allies that Humans have. However, the Night Elves- the only major Alliance power in Kalimdor- would have completely different priorities. I find it hard to picture any Night Elf caring about Lordaeron, other than possibly what the Forsaken have done to the environment around it, but it's not their land. And the Horde does present a much more unified front than the Alliance does- they are not an Alliance but a single unified faction of multiple races. I think that the Eastern Kingdom Alliance races are interlinked to the point that any victory or loss suffered by one kingdom will affect all the others, and they share many similarities, but also have differences, in terms of culture and outlook. But the night elves, in their case, the differences outnumber the similarities. So I am of the opinion that the two continents should have different stories- a missed opportunity is to have the Tauren and the Night Elves work together to protect Azeroth and Nature from the effects of the War fostered by their belligerent allies. Whether this means even a potential split from their respective factions to form a third major power, or whether their efforts should be more subtle, I do not know.


The night elves should not be losing their lands in the first place- IMO, symmetry for the sake of symmetry is pointless.

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  #30  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:10 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline
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Originally Posted by CoDimus the Staunch View Post
There is something in what you say, but I am not saying that Blizzard cannot please both parties- only that they have not been able to, for whatever reason. And until they resolve this problem, Night Elf players and traditional Alliance players will always care about different things. So there is difficulty finding a common ground between both, because undoubtedly one side is unhappy about what is happening to their race whilst the other is pleased. And Blizzard seems to really love symmetry- so if the Horde lose Lordaeron, they make the Alliance lose Night Elven lands. Believe me, I'd much rather they just leave the night elven lands out of this equation altogether- this story should be about Lordaeron. Night Elf fans should not have to pay for content that is shafting their favourite race.
ok, if this story the night elves did not lose their capital, what capital would have to lose the alliance in its place so that the symmetry between the factions? because the horde lost a capital, the alliance recovers gilneas and stromgarde. if the horde does not get anything in return this would be unfair to the players of the horde who also paid monthly payment and paid the expa
I think most of us want to kill humans and we would be very happy to destroy the stormwind
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  #31  
Old 02-12-2018, 09:46 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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ok, if this story the night elves did not lose their capital, what capital would have to lose the alliance in its place so that the symmetry between the factions? because the horde lost a capital, the alliance recovers gilneas and stromgarde. if the horde does not get anything in return this would be unfair to the players of the horde who also paid monthly payment and paid the expa
I think most of us want to kill humans and we would be very happy to destroy the stormwind
If you simply MUST destroy Lordaeron?

Build up Suramar to underline how much of a contribution the Nightborne are to the Horde. Lay down a huge naval base there and use it to pose a real threat for the Alliance navy. Meanwhile, update the city so that it functions as a proper capital.

Or, if you MUST destroy Teldrassil?

Use that to recenter the Night Elves in their traditional homelands in northern Kalimdor, and have them fighting the Horde in a manner that delivers a player experience in accordance with Rigby's framework.
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:25 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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ok, if this story the night elves did not lose their capital, what capital would have to lose the alliance in its place so that the symmetry between the factions? because the horde lost a capital, the alliance recovers gilneas and stromgarde. if the horde does not get anything in return this would be unfair to the players of the horde who also paid monthly payment and paid the expa
I think most of us want to kill humans and we would be very happy to destroy the stormwind
Doesn't that kinda ruin the point though? The entire plot will feel lame and retarded if every side has to lose the same amount of things.

Retake Lordaeron, and don't make the Alliance lose anything for it. Sounds fine to me. Even more, I would have taken high elves to lead a civil war against Silvermoon as well.

What did the Horde lost in exchange of Theramore, anyway?

Destroy the Horde, and then disband the Alliance once the Horde problem is no more. That's where we should be progressing in the future.
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  #33  
Old 02-12-2018, 02:24 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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@Lon-ami

How would you destroy the Horde without violating the competence pillar of Rigby's framework?
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  #34  
Old 02-12-2018, 04:38 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You wouldn't.

See our little flower, in this world, there are two kinds of people. Those who consider Rigby's framework a holy grail, and those who care about the meta of the whole setting, wanting a realistic, thus imbalanced, world of harsh consequences. Lon-ami seems to be the second kind.

(For the record, I am not saying that Blizzard in any way provides plausible let alone realistic writing, I am simply saying that for some, Rigby holds no relevance, as what they seek from fantasy, even fantasy game worlds is not only unconcerned with it, it often stands at odds with it.)
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  #35  
Old 02-12-2018, 06:25 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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You wouldn't.

See our little flower, in this world, there are two kinds of people. Those who consider Rigby's framework a holy grail, and those who care about the meta of the whole setting, wanting a realistic, thus imbalanced, world of harsh consequences. Lon-ami seems to be the second kind.

(For the record, I am not sayin that Blizzard in any way provides plausible let alone realistic writing, I am simply saying that for some, Rigby holds no relevance, as what they seek from fantasy, even fantasy game worlds is not only uncorned with it, it often stands at odds with it.)
I was wondering when you'd turn up. Though, I'm going to have to ask for clarification again, because the last time we butted heads on frameworks, you stepped back from saying that the game should only cater to your peculiar interests.

So, you can see that I've put my cards on the table. I have a framework, and I have support for it. Would you care to show me yours and why it's the better one to use if you are writing, and presumably selling, an MMO?
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:24 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I was wondering when you'd turn up. Though, I'm going to have to ask for clarification again, because the last time we butted heads on frameworks, you stepped back from saying that the game should only cater to your peculiar interests.

So, you can see that I've put my cards on the table. I have a framework, and I have support for it. Would you care to show me yours and why it's the better one to use if you are writing, and presumably selling, an MMO?
Oh, don't worry, consider me gone, for I have no interest in arguing with you. And since I never said that, (can't believe you are still trying to strawman this argument in), there is nothing to address anyway.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:06 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I was wondering when you'd turn up. Though, I'm going to have to ask for clarification again, because the last time we butted heads on frameworks, you stepped back from saying that the game should only cater to your peculiar interests.

So, you can see that I've put my cards on the table. I have a framework, and I have support for it. Would you care to show me yours and why it's the better one to use if you are writing, and presumably selling, an MMO?
I'll bite.

If a man does not portray features that you consider attractive, then you're not interested in him. Right?

Does that mean men should only cater to your peculiar interests?
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  #38  
Old 02-13-2018, 06:08 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Oh, don't worry, consider me gone, for I have no interest in arguing with you. And since I never said that, (can't believe you are still trying to strawman this argument in), there is nothing to address anyway.
I think the post history speaks for itself on what you did or didn't say, but it nevertheless confuses me that, if you claim not to hold that position, that you turn up here advancing arguments consistent with it.

Edit for Krainz: I'm not convinced that we're talking about the same thing. I put up a model for player enjoyment in an MMO that, as WoW does, offers the player a choice in roles. Your question seems to suggest that I'm advocating to cater only to one role, which is the opposite of what I'm doing.

(Apologies for the late edit, my first answer didn't get to what I was trying to say)
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  #39  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:07 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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@Lon-ami

How would you destroy the Horde without violating the competence pillar of Rigby's framework?
Never heard of that anywhere else, to be fair. It sounds like a terribly forced stalemate that kills any sort of emotion and risk the story could have.

You don't need to be "in peace" or "winning" to control a situation anyway.

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You wouldn't.

See our little flower, in this world, there are two kinds of people. Those who consider Rigby's framework a holy grail, and those who care about the meta of the whole setting, wanting a realistic, thus imbalanced, world of harsh consequences. Lon-ami seems to be the second kind.

(For the record, I am not sayin that Blizzard in any way provides plausible let alone realistic writing, I am simply saying that for some, Rigby holds no relevance, as what they seek from fantasy, even fantasy game worlds is not only uncorned with it, it often stands at odds with it.)
Yeah, that sounds like it.

The Alliance would control more territories, but not be able to defend them all properly. The Horde would be surrounded but holding well, and then using guerrilla warfare.

Eventually, when WoW doesn't matter anymore, the Horde loses, and is forced to splinter by the Alliance, making sure they never join forces again. Then the Alliance eventually breaks apart too, since there's no need to be together now that the Horde has been dealt with. Orcs could be forced to divide in different clans with different leaders, deleting the figure of warchief for good.

Then each race/nation/faction can have its own agency, instead of following the flavor of the week brainless force of destruction. Tauren could be a pretty cool neutral faction siding with night elves or orcs depending on the situation. Humans can fight against each other again. The world would no longer be black and white, or in WoW's case, red and blue.
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  #40  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:38 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Never heard of that anywhere else, to be fair. It sounds like a terribly forced stalemate that kills any sort of emotion and risk the story could have.

You don't need to be "in peace" or "winning" to control a situation anyway.
Rigby's framework has nothing to do with maintaining a certain status quo, it just means that for a game to be an enjoyable experience, it needs to give the player a feeling of competence, autonomy, and relatedness. (This is mentioned in greater detail in the original post)

I'm also not throwing the question up as a rebuttal. I don't necessarily disagree that you should disband the factions in this way, but I do want to ask how you would go about doing that without making Horde fans feel awful (or: undermining one of the key reasons people play games in the first place)?
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:28 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Rigby's framework has nothing to do with maintaining a certain status quo, it just means that for a game to be an enjoyable experience, it needs to give the player a feeling of competence, autonomy, and relatedness. (This is mentioned in greater detail in the original post)

I'm also not throwing the question up as a rebuttal. I don't necessarily disagree that you should disband the factions in this way, but I do want to ask how you would go about doing that without making Horde fans feel awful (or: undermining one of the key reasons people play games in the first place)?
You can feel good being the underdog. Most fantasy settings are like that anyway, the protagonists are a bunch of nobodies who shouldn't be able to stand against the villain's minions, yet they do.

Horde players can have fun being stubborn fucks who don't give up, and playing guerrilla warfare against the now Alliance controlled territory.

The Alliance can feel awesome kicking some asses as well, trying to hold their newly captured territory.

Take the Battle of Helm's Deep, one side is overpowered, and the other is clearly going to lose, yet both have fun. Now just make it a tug of war instead of a wait for reinforcements situation, and you have what I'm suggesting.
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~Fan ficton: Anachronos Journey: The Timeless Heir~ ~Geography of continents series: Old Kalimdor (original), Pandaria~
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  #42  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:46 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
You can feel good being the underdog. Most fantasy settings are like that anyway, the protagonists are a bunch of nobodies who shouldn't be able to stand against the villain's minions, yet they do.

Horde players can have fun being stubborn fucks who don't give up, and playing guerrilla warfare against the now Alliance controlled territory.

The Alliance can feel awesome kicking some asses as well, trying to hold their newly captured territory.

Take the Battle of Helm's Deep, one side is overpowered, and the other is clearly going to lose, yet both have fun. Now just make it a tug of war instead of a wait for reinforcements situation, and you have what I'm suggesting.
I'll just underline for future use that being the underdog works when there appears to still be the possibility of success. Being able to stand up to overwhelming odds I imagine would do great things for the player experience. Being repeatedly crushed with no hope of a comeback would not.

That said, your answer makes sense to me. Thank you for the explanation!
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  #43  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:56 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline
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Doesn't that kinda ruin the point though? The entire plot will feel lame and retarded if every side has to lose the same amount of things.

Retake Lordaeron, and don't make the Alliance lose anything for it. Sounds fine to me. Even more, I would have taken high elves to lead a civil war against Silvermoon as well.

What did the Horde lost in exchange of Theramore, anyway?

Destroy the Horde, and then disband the Alliance once the Horde problem is no more. That's where we should be progressing in the future.
And what would be my motivation as a player of the horde to continue paying for the game if my faction is destroyed and my enemies defeat us?I imagine that if the alliance wins all the members of the horde we will die
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:40 PM
Wreave Wreave is offline

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I like Kyalin's OP, and methodical approach. I think it's a good warning/objection raised. However, many of the concerns date back to older expansions.

How do Night Elves come across in Legion? I would say very well, with some of those presentations being almost apologies for past storytelling.
  • Legion is the "Elf Story Unification" expansion. It unifies the stories of Night Elves, Ghost Night Elves (Darkshore, Stonetalon), Blood Elves, Naga Elves, Nightborne, into a single story. Then it enriches that story further with the Moonguard, Fal'dorei, and the Arcandor, and unites it all in a story about a need for balance between nature and arcane with the elves. (With that need for balance foreshadowing the need for balance between dark and light.) IMO, it's brilliant game story telling.
  • Stat wise: Three full zones, six dungeons and two raids are elf themed. Plus Alleria's substantial role in the end game.
  • Tyrande's character: Tyrande is portrayed as passionate and quick to act -- impatient. But when the chips are down, she chooses rationally, chooses her long term duty over her more immediate emotional response -- she chooses to protect the temple, rather than pursue Malfurion. That's a good, strong character.
  • On her ride to the temple Tyrande clarifies her relationship with Malfurion. And its a clarification that makes sense, and gives them both credit in the relationship. (I felt that this was specifically an apology for Kosak's Tyrande kitchen comment.)
  • Tyrande doesn't go all peace mode and give away Azshara again. Her feelings about involvement in Suramar campaign are exactly correct: recognizes tactical value, remember past actions, but is warily hopeful for their future.
  • Tyrande and Malfurion's reactions to Illidan's final message also very notably avoids "all is forgiven". They have very muted appreciation. It's a excellent finalization of their relationship.
  • Prince Farondis: Blizz fakes us out with this guy, and the fakeout is an apology. At first, he looks wimpy, browbeaten. But when he pulls out the fireballs, he's a powerhouse. Then you switch to his PoV you get to play his powerhouse abilities. And then he encounters Azshara, and instead of wimping out, he immediately goes "Oh hell no!" and stands up to her beautifully.
  • Maiv is presented as a complete hardass; and her past crimes are retconned(?) as mind control or something. Her relationship with her brother is fixed. And of course, the Wardens in general are given a fair amount of attention in Legion.
  • Then there's the Moon Guard, Valewalker Farodin, and too many others to list. Just a ton of strong NE characters.

In contrast, I'm having a hard time thinking of NE characters who come off poorly in Legion. Only one that comes to mind is Cordana, who is stuck with the heel turn that was inflicted on her in WoD.

Now, while I'm enduringly dubious of Blizzard's ability to write the faction war well, Legion did have a ton of excellent writing. And there's definitely an opportunity for growth for the NE's. Storywise, kicking them out of Teldrassil has the option of making them a lot more interesting. Less peaceful tree huggers, more pissed off vengeful warriors.

But it remains to be seen if Blizz will actually realize that possibility.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:17 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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@Wreave

I think I agree with you on the Maiev comment, but just about everything else I have issues with. I did a review of Legion to get up to speed, which you can find in the "Kyalin Hot Take Thread", here, at post 51.

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...=221325&page=3

As a reply to your comments, I incorporate the entirely of that review here by reference.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:18 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Wreave View Post
I like Kyalin's OP, and methodical approach. I think it's a good warning/objection raised. However, many of the concerns date back to older expansions.

How do Night Elves come across in Legion? I would say very well, with some of those presentations being almost apologies for past storytelling.
  • Legion is the "Elf Story Unification" expansion. It unifies the stories of Night Elves, Ghost Night Elves (Darkshore, Stonetalon), Blood Elves, Naga Elves, Nightborne, into a single story. Then it enriches that story further with the Moonguard, Fal'dorei, and the Arcandor, and unites it all in a story about a need for balance between nature and arcane with the elves. (With that need for balance foreshadowing the need for balance between dark and light.) IMO, it's brilliant game story telling.
  • Stat wise: Three full zones, six dungeons and two raids are elf themed. Plus Alleria's substantial role in the end game.
  • Tyrande's character: Tyrande is portrayed as passionate and quick to act -- impatient. But when the chips are down, she chooses rationally, chooses her long term duty over her more immediate emotional response -- she chooses to protect the temple, rather than pursue Malfurion. That's a good, strong character.
  • On her ride to the temple Tyrande clarifies her relationship with Malfurion. And its a clarification that makes sense, and gives them both credit in the relationship. (I felt that this was specifically an apology for Kosak's Tyrande kitchen comment.)
  • Tyrande doesn't go all peace mode and give away Azshara again. Her feelings about involvement in Suramar campaign are exactly correct: recognizes tactical value, remember past actions, but is warily hopeful for their future.
  • Tyrande and Malfurion's reactions to Illidan's final message also very notably avoids "all is forgiven". They have very muted appreciation. It's a excellent finalization of their relationship.
  • Prince Farondis: Blizz fakes us out with this guy, and the fakeout is an apology. At first, he looks wimpy, browbeaten. But when he pulls out the fireballs, he's a powerhouse. Then you switch to his PoV you get to play his powerhouse abilities. And then he encounters Azshara, and instead of wimping out, he immediately goes "Oh hell no!" and stands up to her beautifully.
  • Maiv is presented as a complete hardass; and her past crimes are retconned(?) as mind control or something. Her relationship with her brother is fixed. And of course, the Wardens in general are given a fair amount of attention in Legion.
  • Then there's the Moon Guard, Valewalker Farodin, and too many others to list. Just a ton of strong NE characters.

In contrast, I'm having a hard time thinking of NE characters who come off poorly in Legion. Only one that comes to mind is Cordana, who is stuck with the heel turn that was inflicted on her in WoD.

Now, while I'm enduringly dubious of Blizzard's ability to write the faction war well, Legion did have a ton of excellent writing. And there's definitely an opportunity for growth for the NE's. Storywise, kicking them out of Teldrassil has the option of making them a lot more interesting. Less peaceful tree huggers, more pissed off vengeful warriors.

But it remains to be seen if Blizz will actually realize that possibility.
You basically summed up something us more positive Kaldorei fans have been talking on Discord lately. Good post, not much to add from me. Well except for one more thing; Legion brought in a beautiful number of Kaldorei art assets, which I consider a huge plus both in itself and in its future potential (provided that Blizzard utilizes it, which just as the whole writing for BfA remains to be seen).
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  #47  
Old 02-14-2018, 04:55 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Rhllor View Post
And what would be my motivation as a player of the horde to continue paying for the game if my faction is destroyed and my enemies defeat us?I imagine that if the alliance wins all the members of the horde we will die
You become stubborn assholes that don't want to die, and just keep fighting and fighting for a good death.

Anyway, I'm not advocating for total Horde defeat now, just lose Undercity, get a clear frontier in Ashenvale, and get a civil war in Silvermoon City (which they would eventually lose, with the city in high elf hands, or destroyed).

For all I care, the Horde could survive, isolated in central Kalimdor. They wouldn't have the resources to go out and conquer more land, but there would be too many of them to get successfully invaded anyway. There would be pockets of resistance across the world, small settlements where guerrilla warriors would hide, but they would be isolated from the core of the Horde.

Then, very later on, post-WoW, the Horde just disbands after a cold war of sorts. The Alliance then has nothing to worry about, and eventually disbands as well. Instead of two superpowers, we get a series of smaller countries that interact with each other in different ways depending on their interests.

Tauren and night elves would bond quickly, orcs would return to their shamanistic ways away from the Horde's warmongering ways, human kingdoms would go in different ways each, and that's pretty much it.

Forsaken should probably die, or rejoin Lordaeron. Could be interesting to see a New Lordaeron where the dead get resurrected to keep serving the kingdom, and both the living and the dead coexist.
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  #48  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:53 PM
Wreave Wreave is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
@Wreave

I think I agree with you on the Maiev comment, but just about everything else I have issues with. I did a review of Legion to get up to speed, which you can find in the "Kyalin Hot Take Thread", here, at post 51.

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...=221325&page=3

As a reply to your comments, I incorporate the entirely of that review here by reference.
Thanks. I've replied there. I disagree with your overall conclusion, but that was a nicely done piece of work.
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  #49  
Old 02-15-2018, 08:07 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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@Wreave

And I have replied! Looking forward to a good conversation down there!

@Rhilor

I didn't want to make this its own post but...

Quote:
And what would be my motivation as a player of the horde to continue paying for the game if my faction is destroyed and my enemies defeat us?
I hope with this comment that you understand my own frustration. Lon-ami's answer gets at a possible solution to seeing a faction utterly decimated, but your reaction also shows that when a writer proposes something like that, they are asking for a lot of trust.

That works if you have built that trust up! I have seen little but optimism from Forsaken fans that they're going to be shown as strong and powerful. They have backing to be able to say that. Night Elves, meanwhile, do not.
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  #50  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:26 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline
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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
You become stubborn assholes that don't want to die, and just keep fighting and fighting for a good death.

Anyway, I'm not advocating for total Horde defeat now, just lose Undercity, get a clear frontier in Ashenvale, and get a civil war in Silvermoon City (which they would eventually lose, with the city in high elf hands, or destroyed).

For all I care, the Horde could survive, isolated in central Kalimdor. They wouldn't have the resources to go out and conquer more land, but there would be too many of them to get successfully invaded anyway. There would be pockets of resistance across the world, small settlements where guerrilla warriors would hide, but they would be isolated from the core of the Horde.

Then, very later on, post-WoW, the Horde just disbands after a cold war of sorts. The Alliance then has nothing to worry about, and eventually disbands as well. Instead of two superpowers, we get a series of smaller countries that interact with each other in different ways depending on their interests.

Tauren and night elves would bond quickly, orcs would return to their shamanistic ways away from the Horde's warmongering ways, human kingdoms would go in different ways each, and that's pretty much it.

Forsaken should probably die, or rejoin Lordaeron. Could be interesting to see a New Lordaeron where the dead get resurrected to keep serving the kingdom, and both the living and the dead coexist.
What you propose is our defeat and destruction, no one in the horde would accept that. as no one in the alliance would accept that the horde annihilated the alliance!
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