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View Poll Results: Which portrayal of Night Elves do you like more?
Pre-WoW Night Elves (WC3, Frozen Throne) 50 64.10%
WoW Night Elves up until Cataclysm 3 3.85%
WoW Night Elves from Cataclysm onwards 2 2.56%
I like Night Elves in all of their portrayals 6 7.69%
I dislike Night Elves in general 6 7.69%
I don't have a strong opinion either way. 11 14.10%
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  #101  
Old 01-17-2014, 11:27 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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You can't blame only Tyrande for Illidan because Illidan being in jail, and almost all of his actions, were a result of Malfurion's decisions. Instead of killing or banishing him for the Well, he imprisoned his brother with no specific date on when he can be released. If not during the 3rd War, then when? Keeping his brother in jail forever is cruel for something that even Malfurion benefitted from. When he became a demon, instead of killing or putting him in jail, he banishes Illidan to the world. When he nearly destroys it with the Eye of Sargeras, he misses a chance to kill or imprison him. Then because he saved Tyrande, Malfurion lets Illidan go instead of trying to cure his brother, or keeping him with the Night Elves even if it meant being someplace far for his own protection.
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  #102  
Old 01-17-2014, 11:28 AM
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You can't blame only Tyrande for Illidan because Illidan being in jail, and almost all of his actions, were a result of Malfurion's decisions. Instead of killing or banishing him for the Well, he imprisoned his brother with no specific date on when he can be released. If not during the 3rd War, then when? Keeping his brother in jail forever is cruel for something that even Malfurion benefitted from. When he became a demon, instead of killing or putting him in jail, he banishes Illidan to the world. When he nearly destroys it with the Eye of Sargeras, he misses a chance to kill or imprison him. Then because he saved Tyrande, Malfurion lets Illidan go instead of trying to cure his brother, or keeping him with the Night Elves even if it meant being someplace far for his own protection.
I don't think he could easily kill or captured the empowered Illidan, especially when the legion was about to march to the World Tree.
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  #103  
Old 01-22-2014, 02:11 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Do I like the current portrayal of night elves? Not at all. To be honest, I don't like the portrayal of any WoW race these days.
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  #104  
Old 01-22-2014, 08:30 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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So why are night elves a special case? Every playable race has their portrayal ruined with WoW, but some how night elves are priority?
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  #105  
Old 01-22-2014, 08:34 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
So why are night elves a special case? Every playable race has their portrayal ruined with WoW, but some how night elves are priority?
With the nelfs it's tangible and particularly visible.
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  #106  
Old 01-23-2014, 09:04 AM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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With the nelfs it's tangible and particularly visible.
And the orcs, humans, tauren, trolls, gnomes and draeneredar arent?
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  #107  
Old 01-23-2014, 11:24 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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And the orcs, humans, tauren, trolls, gnomes and draeneredar arent?
It's especially bad for the Night elves though. The orcs and humans are still the backbone powerhouses of their factions, the trolls are trolls (for the most part) and still like killing each other. it's an Azerothian planetary sport; the tauren never had that much lore to ruin. The Draenei/Eredar? Not a lot to ruin there except by making the Draenei too forgiving. The Night elves? Damned near everything they had in WC3 has been torn out and stomped all over.
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  #108  
Old 01-23-2014, 11:26 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It's especially bad for the Night elves though. The orcs and humans are still the backbone powerhouses of their factions, the trolls are trolls (for the most part) and still like killing each other. it's an Azerothian planetary sport; the tauren never had that much lore to ruin. The Draenei/Eredar? Not a lot to ruin there except by making the Draenei too forgiving. The Night elves? Damned near everything they had in WC3 has been torn out and stomped all over.
And the worgen have it twice since they not only got stomped over in game, but then got attached and turned into furry night elves.
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  #109  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:38 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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It's especially bad for the Night elves though. The orcs and humans are still the backbone powerhouses of their factions, the trolls are trolls (for the most part) and still like killing each other. it's an Azerothian planetary sport; the tauren never had that much lore to ruin. The Draenei/Eredar? Not a lot to ruin there except by making the Draenei too forgiving. The Night elves? Damned near everything they had in WC3 has been torn out and stomped all over.
And you're not being myopic at all there?

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  #110  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:49 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
And the worgen have it twice since they not only got stomped over in game, but then got attached and turned into furry night elves.
The worgen have far less history/lore to be screwed up too, but they did get a royal reaming with so much of their plot lines being dropped.

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And you're not being myopic at all there?

I'm pretty sure. The rest of the Alliance races got hammered pretty good, with the dwarves getting hit the least, but the Night elves have been beaten up, thrown under the buss and dragged a couple of miles, then kicked down fifteen flights of stairs onto a bed of spikes.
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  #111  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:51 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Let's all pity the poor abused night elves!

How are they ever going to move on after such abuse?
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  #112  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:59 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I don't understand why people are so skeptical of the idea that the Nelfs have been weakened the most in WoW's run.
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  #113  
Old 01-23-2014, 01:02 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I don't understand why people are so skeptical of the idea that the Nelfs have been weakened the most in WoW's run.
Because of the ridiculous levels some people go to hammer that point of view into the masses.
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  #114  
Old 01-23-2014, 01:48 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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  #115  
Old 01-23-2014, 02:01 PM
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Because of the ridiculous levels some people go to hammer that point of view into the masses.
I can understand being annoyed with people who never talk about anything else, but the argument itself is pretty strong.
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  #116  
Old 01-24-2014, 03:11 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I can understand being annoyed with people who never talk about anything else, but the argument itself is pretty strong.
No. It is only an opinion and the result of realizaiton not meeting the expectations.
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  #117  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:05 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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It's especially bad for the Night elves though. The orcs and humans are still the backbone powerhouses of their factions, the trolls are trolls (for the most part) and still like killing each other. it's an Azerothian planetary sport; the tauren never had that much lore to ruin. The Draenei/Eredar? Not a lot to ruin there except by making the Draenei too forgiving. The Night elves? Damned near everything they had in WC3 has been torn out and stomped all over.
Only if you want to strictly look at the military might aspect, then yeah it's true. It also would mean the night elf fans are butthurt because they aren't the powerhouse faction. If that's the case then the whole night elf plight looks a lot less sympathetic all of a sudden.

Orcs just had their development set back. I doubt it will recover to what they had in WC3 unless the whole of WoW is retconned. Taurens are castrated in every sense of the word. The Horde as a whole looks and feels soft.

In terms of night elf units in WC3, they never had them in the first place. Creatures like chimeras and stone giants were only there to help with fighting the Legion.

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  #118  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:22 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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In terms of night elf units in WC3, they never had them in the first place. Creatures like chimeras and stone giants were only there to help with fighting the Legion.
That kind of makes it worse though. "Oh no, you didn't decline from your former strength. You just were never that strong."

Plus, mountain giants (and faerie drakes for that matter) only got introduced after the battle of mount hyjal, and chimeras don't display more than animal intelligence, so the entire cdev induced retcon is utter bull (not to mention directly contradicting feralas)

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The mysterious chimaeras of Ashenvale Forest are deadly, territorial beasts who have developed an empathic bond with the night elf race. The fearsome, two-headed chimaeras fly above the dark forests spewing forth their terrible breath upon all who would defy the sanctity of Kalimdor. Just the sight of these dark, massive beasts is enough to drive most enemies to retreat.
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  #119  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:50 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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That kind of makes it worse though. "Oh no, you didn't decline from your former strength. You just were never that strong."

Plus, mountain giants (and faerie drakes for that matter) only got introduced after the battle of mount hyjal, and chimeras don't display more than animal intelligence, so the entire cdev induced retcon is utter bull (not to mention directly contradicting feralas)
And the WC3 manual, where the Chimera and Night Elves were so close they had empathic bonds.
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  #120  
Old 01-24-2014, 09:11 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Although the chimaera have developed an empathic bond with the night elf race they are not part of the actual military hierarchy of the Sentinels. The chimaera are simply somewhat intelligent animals with ties to Nordrassil. These beings all assisted the night elves not due to a desire to help them in particular, but because the night elves were the largest local force who opposed the Burning Legion. Short of a planetary threat, it is rare to see mountain giants, faerie dragons or chimaera fighting with a mortal army.
Yeah... this has a cdev source citation too. It's still the case regardless of when the said units are introduced.

Don't feel bad man, the undead got most of their units stripped away too.
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  #121  
Old 01-24-2014, 10:01 PM
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Yeah... this has a cdev source citation too. It's still the case regardless of when the said units are introduced.

Don't feel bad man, the undead got most of their units stripped away too.
And buildings.
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  #122  
Old 01-24-2014, 10:21 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Yeah... this has a cdev source citation too. It's still the case regardless of when the said units are introduced.

Don't feel bad man, the undead got most of their units stripped away too.
And I'd wager that, with the plague, they probably ended up stronger than they were in WC3. Don't get me wrong, It sucks the Forsaken lost those things.

I think Blizzard could have handled the transition a bit better from RTS to RPG, and I think that, instead of weakening, they should have strengthened the others.

Now, fast forward, and the Forsaken had to be given other things to remain in balance thanks to the advancement of tech and the manipulations of Arcane and Goblins (wheras the Night Elves have yet to receive that outside of Ashenvale, where they randomly gained a super spirit cat, and of course Elune, who's power to her priests has taken a massive leap in the meta sense) .

Compare the Forsaken of WC3 (or even the NE of WC3) to the other factions of today, and would they seem that out of place? With flying air ships, subs, robots, laser canons, physics defying guns, space travel, massive bombs the roles of sort of changed throughout WoW.

Certainly, in the state of Vanilla, the Night Elves and Forsaken of WC3 were to powerful compared to the other races. In the Warcraft of today? With the advancement of the other races? Those stripped things began to stick out.

I think much of the "Night Elf hate" is just poor planning and poor implementation and just a lack of how to work it out without breaking the anti-tech thematic they want Night Elves to have.
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  #123  
Old 01-25-2014, 01:56 AM
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And I'd wager that, with the plague, they probably ended up stronger than they were in WC3. Don't get me wrong, It sucks the Forsaken lost those things.
The plague is also an exceptionally unsustainable gimmick. It's an "I-win" button that lasts until a proper counter is developed. At which time, the Forsaken lose just about the only trump card they have left in their deck, apart from maybe the dwindling val'kyr.
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  #124  
Old 01-25-2014, 02:11 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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The plague is also an exceptionally unsustainable gimmick. It's an "I-win" button that lasts until a proper counter is developed. At which time, the Forsaken lose just about the only trump card they have left in their deck, apart from maybe the dwindling val'kyr.
Yeah, the Forsaken don't have much of a future unless something with them changes. A new way to raise troops not dependent on the Val'kyr, stronger abominations, more undead.

But the Forsaken by their very nature were a dead, unsustainable race. It's really my single biggest gripe with the Forsaken.

No matter what they do, no matter who succesful they are, their species cannot last. Night Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Blood Elves, every other race.. It doesn't matter, they can reproduce with very small populations.

The forsaken? Their method of reproduction is either war, or raiding graveyards... And even then, that method is severely limited on special creatures. They really should have jumped all in on the Necromancer thing. Raise more types of troops, more dead soldiers.

As it is now, they are a dead end. Their resources are to limited. They don't have the numbers the Scourge had to make them a threat, and they don't have a backup plan if their current lifeline is destroyed.

Sucks to be them.
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  #125  
Old 01-25-2014, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Yeah... this has a cdev source citation too. It's still the case regardless of when the said units are introduced.

Don't feel bad man, the undead got most of their units stripped away too.
The problem is that, barring necromancers, we already understood that there was a difference between scourge forces and forsaken forces in WC3. As such, losing, say, frost wyrms, when it was clear that they were a scourge weapon that the forsaken weren't really using made sense, especially given that they had to be somewhat cleared up for being "good" in the next expansion (which is probably why you didn't see necromancers as often as you would in WC3). Likewise, it made sense that the alliance forces only lost Blood mages and dragonhawk riders, after losing the blood elves and large amounts of high elves (priests were so generic they barely count as predicted losses), and did the Horde even lose anything? Suicide bat bombers?

Going by the above then, you'd expect that the total of night elf "losses" compared to WC3 would be wardens. Just maybe mountain giants (oi Illidan fans, how come if Illidan was so good they thought that he was more of a threat than the legion? ). Instead they lost chimeras (initial ultimate unit), dryads (core unit) and faerie dragons (along with chimeras, the main way of completing the penultimate mission) as well. (I''m counting Keepers of the Grove as druids, and demon hunters as too rare and sometimes dangerous to count as major forces). Oh, and Cenarius has just stopped caring about the orcs cutting down his forests, even if some of the extent is merely malicious.

That's a pretty major loss given that none of it was expected at all. Or apparently for any reason other than weakening the night elves. Which is weird given how just about every other of the initial major players (orcs/main Horde, Humans/main Alliance, forsaken) have made gains since WC3. So while we see the Western Horde start to use captured wildlife/Goblin technology, the forsaken plague and valkyr (and blood elves mana bombs), and the Eastern alliance is making better use of Gnomish technology, the night elves gain... Highbourne who are instantly derided as being weak? So the night elves lost core thematic to "nerf" them, just as the other major players are getting significant developments? And that key aspects of their "theme" (druidism) don't seem to be that bothered by the Horde, even when they and their domains are under attack from them?

That's the problem, not just the "losses", but that there seems to be no reason for the losses other than weakening them, despite everyone else being made stronger.
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