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  #6201  
Old 09-11-2017, 04:36 PM
Gromak Gromak is online now

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I would disagree on the proposition being weak from a writing perspective; if anything I believe it deepens and complexifies Tywin and Tyrion's relationship - the idea that Tywin hates Tyrion because Aerys raped Joanna Lannister has much more explanatory power than Tywin having a pathological hatred for his son just because he was small.
That's not the reason at all. Tywin hates Tyrion because Joanna died giving birth to him, and honestly that's a much better reason.
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  #6202  
Old 09-11-2017, 04:56 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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That's not the reason at all. Tywin hates Tyrion because Joanna died giving birth to him, and honestly that's a much better reason.
Fully agreed - but you're about 70% of the way there. Tywin hates that Joanna died birthing Tyrion because Aerys raped her - Tyrion was the constant mocking reminder of the terrible thing the Mad King did to the only person he ever truly loved.

Lord Tywin's Doom, the smallfolk called this ill-made creature, and Lord Tywin's Bane. Upon hearing of his birth, King Aerys infamously said, "The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last."
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  #6203  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:51 AM
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Fully agreed - but you're about 70% of the way there. Tywin hates that Joanna died birthing Tyrion because Aerys raped her - Tyrion was the constant mocking reminder of the terrible thing the Mad King did to the only person he ever truly loved.
If there was even the slightest possibility that Tyrion was not Tywin's son, he would've killed him. Not even a "Promise me Tywin" would've prevented that. Being his son and a Lannister beyond the shadow of a doubt is the only reason Tyrion's still alive.

Not everyone needs to be a secret Targaeryen.
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  #6204  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:57 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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If there was even the slightest possibility that Tyrion was not Tywin's son, he would've killed him. Not even a "Promise me Tywin" would've prevented that. Being his son and a Lannister beyond the shadow of a doubt is the only reason Tyrion's still alive.

Not everyone needs to be a secret Targaeryen.
So says the secret American!
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  #6205  
Old 09-12-2017, 12:05 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
I would disagree on the proposition being weak from a writing perspective; if anything I believe it deepens and complexifies Tywin and Tyrion's relationship - the idea that Tywin hates Tyrion because Aerys raped Joanna Lannister has much more explanatory power than Tywin having a pathological hatred for his son just because he was small.
As Gromak pointed out, just because he was small is not the reason at all. And it is weak, as if it was true, it would trade little more explanatory power, where it is not needed at all, for the tragedy of their relationship.

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Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Fully agreed - but you're about 70% of the way there. Tywin hates that Joanna died birthing Tyrion because Aerys raped her - Tyrion was the constant mocking reminder of the terrible thing the Mad King did to the only person he ever truly loved.

Lord Tywin's Doom, the smallfolk called this ill-made creature, and Lord Tywin's Bane. Upon hearing of his birth, King Aerys infamously said, "The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last."
Careful now, you are presenting a theory as a fact here.

Last edited by Marthen; 09-12-2017 at 12:11 PM..
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  #6206  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
If there was even the slightest possibility that Tyrion was not Tywin's son, he would've killed him. Not even a "Promise me Tywin" would've prevented that. Being his son and a Lannister beyond the shadow of a doubt is the only reason Tyrion's still alive.
I don't believe that can be asserted at all - Joanna Lannister was the only person Tywin ever loved. The fact that he chose to marry his own first cousin instead of the daughter of some other great house proves his genuine affection for his wife. And by all accounts in the books, Joanna was a normal and loving mother - and there is no way she would have consented to Tywin murdering Tyrion at his birth; if she made him promise to not punish the innocent child, he would have listened to her. And so Tywin begrudgingly brings him up as a Lannister but can never love him as a son - in the same way that Catelyn could never love Jon. And yet ironically Tywin's relentless emotional abuse towards Tyrion ends up creating a better heir for his legacy than either of his two true children.

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Not everyone needs to be a secret Targaeryen.
I find this complaint to be a bit silly - because what it suggests is that for a series with thousands and thousands and characters, there must only be one prominent character that was born a bastard. That the idea of House Targaryen producing more than one bastard stretches the realms of credulity too much - that consensual sex between two married adults must be the norm in this series. When actually extra-marital affairs and rape is tremendously common in George's books - you've got Oberyn's Sand Snakes, Aurane Waters, Cersei's children, Ramsay Snow, Edric Storm etc, etc. The Blackfyre rebellions began because Aegon the Unworthy legitimized more than four of his Targaryen bastards (including Bloodraven, Bittersteel, Seastar and Blackfyre) Even House Baratheon was founded by a Targaryen bastard.

The Targaryens had been the ruling power in Westeros for nearly three hundred years - Jon Snow and Daenerys need not be the only relevant Targaryens in the final books.

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As Gromak pointed out, just because he was small is not the reason at all. And it is weak, as if it was true, it would trade little more explanatory power, where it is not needed at all, for the tragedy of their relationship.
I have probably said this earlier in this thread at some point, so apologies if I am repeating myself, but whether you or I or anyone would enjoy a proposition would have absolutely nothing to do with whether it was true or not. As it happens, I believe Aerys raping Joanna does actually have the most explanatory power and is more tragic than the mainstream alternative to Tyrion's parentage - but we must go where the sources lead whether we enjoy them or not. If someone were to object to R+L=J by saying that they thought the idea ruined their perception of Jon and Eddard's relationship - that, unfortunately, wouldn't be a relevant criticism.

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Careful now, you are presenting a theory as a fact here.
For the sake of conversation I am discussing the sources as if they were true because, once we dismiss personal biases and preferences, the textual evidence does strongly suggest that they are - in the same way that nobody speaks of R+L=J as if it were a 50/50 proposition; the evidence is strong enough that we can safely say that we believe it was George's intent for us to think that.

When you consider (this brief summary for brevity's sake): Tyrion's mismatched green and black eyes, Viserion is the smallest dragon but has creamy-golden skin, Tyrion's silver-blonde hair, the Mad King's history of sexual abuse and taking mistresses from the queen's court, Tywin's pathological hatred for Tyrion before he was even old enough to embarrass their family, 'All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes,' Tyrion's dreams of dragons, his affinity for wildfire, Joanna being returned to the capital only a year before her death and 'You are not my son.' - there are just too many relevant sources for us to not treat this proposition as seriously as we would when we textually-criticize any other idea.


"Did you know that my brother set the Blackwater Rush afire? Wildfire will burn on water. Aerys would have bathed in it if he'd dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire." - ASOS, Jaime V

Last edited by Shaman; 09-13-2017 at 12:05 AM..
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  #6207  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:48 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I have probably said this earlier in this thread at some point, so apologies if I am repeating myself, but whether you or I or anyone would enjoy a proposition would have absolutely nothing to do with whether it was true or not.
Oh, I agree with this. But as it happens, you are bringing in your personal biases as well when considering this true, as it easily might be a red herring. Martin himself has said that there are many fan theories which are wrong despite having a strong basis.
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  #6208  
Old 09-13-2017, 01:23 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Oh, I agree with this. But as it happens, you are bringing in your personal biases as well when considering this true, as it easily might be a red herring. Martin himself has said that there are many fan theories which are wrong despite having a strong basis.
I actually don't particularly care one way or the other about Tyrion's parentage - I'm not emotionally invested in the idea of the Mad King being his father; but based on everything I have read its simply the best conclusion I have reached based on the textual evidence. Now there are other prominent 'theories' (I hate that word in a non-scientific context) which have strong textual support that I would be invested in and think are interesting from a literary perspective, but this proposition about Tyrion's birth isn't one of them for me.

By and large the most common objection by the entire ASoIaF reader-base to Aerys abusing Joanna Lannister has been that they simply wouldn't like it to be true - that they feel that detail would ruin their perception of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship - but that's just not an important objection. I've never seen a compelling challenge to the enormity of actual sources on this topic.
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  #6209  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:51 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I actually don't particularly care one way or the other about Tyrion's parentage - I'm not emotionally invested in the idea of the Mad King being his father; but based on everything I have read its simply the best conclusion I have reached based on the textual evidence. Now there are other prominent 'theories' (I hate that word in a non-scientific context) which have strong textual support that I would be invested in and think are interesting from a literary perspective, but this proposition about Tyrion's birth isn't one of them for me.
Your bias does not come from an emotional investment in one or more particular outcomes, it comes from your belief that a theory grounded in enough textual evidence should be taken as granted, ignoring possiblities like narrative driven red herrings (specifically in this particular case), misdirections (not this particular case), mistakes, etc.

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By and large the most common objection by the entire ASoIaF reader-base to Aerys abusing Joanna Lannister has been that they simply wouldn't like it to be true - that they feel that detail would ruin their perception of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship - but that's just not an important objection. I've never seen a compelling challenge to the enormity of actual sources on this topic.
I am not sure that is true, as I have seen little objection to Aerys abusing Joanna, usually it had everything to do with Tyrion's parentage. And these two are not mutually inclusive, which is what is problematic with the whole theory, it works with the presumption they are.

Last edited by Marthen; 09-13-2017 at 09:29 AM..
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  #6210  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:05 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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We literally have a book thread to avoid having black bars for phone users, and fuck you Shaman for making me agree with Marthen.
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  #6211  
Old 09-20-2017, 12:07 AM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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So my theory is that the wall is made up of all the shattered bodies of the original white walkers from the war for the dawn
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  #6212  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:09 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Today I was given a few old candles from the prop department that were used in the Red Wedding. <3 I mean to only burn them on special occasions - like if the King in the North is ever visiting.
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  #6213  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:24 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Today I was given a few old candles from the prop department that were used in the Red Wedding. <3 I mean to only burn them on special occasions - like if the King in the North is ever visiting.
1. Congratulations

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