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  #26  
Old 12-17-2017, 10:15 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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3) Where is the NR fleet? Did they have their entire fleet at their capital? Why didn't any of them join the Resistence?
Supposedly the desire to avoid another war had the New Republic engage in some sort of aggressive disarmament (despite the First Order still running around harassing planets with its own fleets), so evidently that was the vast bulk of their one and only notable fleet, stationed at the capital's star system after they disarmed the rest of their territory to keep from looking like they wanted a fight.

Honestly the reasons that the New Republic and First Order do anything are extremely weird and disjointed. The Republic apparently existed specifically to do nothing so it could die without a fight, while the First Order's ideology is seemingly based on a bunch of nonsense from Hux's speech about claiming the Republic creates chaos, which frankly wouldn't make sense to anyone who isn't already a programmed Stormtrooper. That stuff works when it's in your head as Emperor, but even Palpatine was smart enough to sell his desire for order and control as a wish for galactic peace and prosperity. The First Order is just brazenly painting themselves as rigid oppressors who think they should be allowed to oppress everyone in order to make them behave. It'd be one thing if the Republic were itself causing wars and disunity, but that's all been squarely the First Order's fault, and it's hard to spin it otherwise when you're the only one who's got Star Destroyers and TIE Fighters and Stormtroopers running around killing innocent people.

The Galactic Empire worked because it had a lot of the people on its side by virtue of, for all its heinous faults, being the technically legitimate galactic government. Right or wrong, there were myriad reasoned justifications for remaining subject to its rule beyond just being afraid of getting blasted if you didn't. Not so with the First Order. They're just plain acting like invaders demanding obedience and loyalty solely because they'll kill anyone who refuses. Unless their plan is to repopulate the entire galaxy with only Stormtroopers, there's basically nothing about the First Order that should appeal to normal people, i.e. anyone who isn't already wearing their uniforms and indoctrinated into their propaganda from birth.
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  #27  
Old 12-17-2017, 10:22 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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The New Order has a "secret club of teenage neo-Nazis have a secret army and are going to take over" vibe and it feels silly and topical. Like a statement that everyone should focus on the neo-Nazis in the USA who are so powerful and bad right now. They probably have a super weapon. They are not even neo-Empire in rhetoric, which makes it seem like they are talking to the audience.

The prequels seemed to try to talk about the military-industrial complex, which at least has more solidarity.

To me, the viewer, the First Order come from nowhere and get a fleet from magic. The Empire was around. You didn't need an explanation. They were an evil empire who ruled the galaxy, with all the infrastructure that implied. Then the Empire totally fell, but these completely new guys were just as established. Now they have gorilla AT-ATs and even bigger ships.

The movies also never explain why there is a "resistance" if the First Order is not in charge (other sources do). Rebels without a rebellion.

Kylo and Rey are both just expressions of teenage/young adult angst, which undermines the seriousness of their situation. I just can't take Kylo Ren seriously. He is so millennial.
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  #28  
Old 12-17-2017, 11:02 PM
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The New Order has a "secret club of teenage neo-Nazis have a secret army and are going to take over" vibe and it feels silly and topical. Like a statement that everyone should focus on the neo-Nazis in the USA who are so powerful and bad right now. They probably have a super weapon. They are not even neo-Empire in rhetoric, which makes it seem like they are talking to the audience.
The prequels seemed to try to talk about the military-industrial complex, which at least has more solidarity.
Episodes II and III were partially Lucas' commentary on the Bush administration.
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:37 AM
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The main Resistance plotline was the most boring thing in the recent Star Wars movies. Holy fuck that was the most mind numbingly bland plotline ever. Just fucking driving away on low gas for what felt like 45 minutes while nothing happened. Pacing for the entire film was pretty bad honestly.

Purple Hair commander not divulging her plan to Po was necessary.... why? It wasn't some top secret shit. It was a very basic idea and because Po had no clue what was going on he and his buddies (Finn and Rose the unnecessary new character) end up trying to save the day and instead ensure that about 380 Resistance fighters die. And then no one brings this up at all?

Rey on the island was ok, but she never ACTUALLY trained with Luke. She didn't get any better with the Force or using a Lightsaber while she was there. And what even was the point of the hole in the ground that she popped down into? Literally nothing happened down there.

On a related note, learning that Rey's parents were some nobody assholes was nice and I'm happy that she's not Luke's kid or whatever, but finding out didn't effect her at all in this film. So it's a nice story but unnecessary for the character. Random, basically.

Speaking of useless and random, the entire Casino city adventure with Finn and Rose. I don't even need to elaborate.

Luke dying for no reason was also quite strange. The Force hologram distraction against Kylo was great; I loved the subtle hints that Luke wasn't actually there (feet made no impact on the ground when it was shown to be red underneath the white salt on top, his blade never made contact with Kylo's) but then he just died afterwards for no reason?

I seem extremely negative but that's mostly from my love of Episode 7 and my absolute hatred of the schlocky boring mess of Rogue One and TLJ here felt morel ike R1 than E7. I'm mostly pretty meh about this one. There were a lot of great moments though. The entire throne room scene with Snoke, Rey, Kylo Ren, and the Praetorian Guard was absolutely awesome from start to end. The Hyperspeed ramming shot was likewise INCREDIBLE looking. Probably the best looking moment in Star Wars history. But overall it was a disappointment.

Very excited to see Kylo as the Supreme Leader right out of the gates in the next film, but my excitement is at a low between this film and Rogue One.
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:46 AM
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The other forum I’m on is mixed, but I’ve seen many who enjoyed this film.
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  #31  
Old 12-18-2017, 02:16 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Very excited to see Kylo as the Supreme Leader right out of the gates in the next film, but my excitement is at a low between this film and Rogue One.
Honestly Kylo being Supreme Leader reminds me of Elektra's promotion to main villain in The Defenders(spoiler tag just in case for folks who might not have seen what I'm talking about.) Namely, killing the Big Bad to replace them with a character who while singularly powerful, has no business being in charge of anything that requires intelligent delegation of responsibility.

He strikes me as the sort of Supreme Leader who'll immediately start running the First Order into the ground by trying to personally do everything important himself and ignoring subordinates who know their own jobs better than he does. For all his power, Palpatine was able to run the Empire as well as he did by being an experienced politician and bureaucrat on top of being a Sith Lord. Kylo Ren is neither of those other things; rather he comes across more like a socially inept edge-lord who doesn't work well with others. It's the same reason I roll my eyes when I watch RotJ these days and Darth Vader asks Luke to help him overthrow and replace Palpatine. What a clusterfuck that would be. Neither one of them was ever Emperor material. They'd have wrecked the Empire in a few years because damaged loners who don't know how to work the crowd, inspire trust from their subordinates or sell themselves in a positive light make for poor heads of state.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-2017, 02:43 AM
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He strikes me as the sort of Supreme Leader who'll immediately start running the First Order into the ground by trying to personally do everything important himself and ignoring subordinates who know their own jobs better than he does.
Yep, he's an impulsive hothead that flies off the handle at any slight. That's why I'm excited. He's not the Emperor or even Snoke, he couldn't possible build this stuff up on his own. He's just taking the reigns. This gives the Resistance opportunities to capitalize on Kylo's fuck ups, but it also means that whatever target Kylo is set on is probably fucked because he's going personally go out himself into combat along with most of his forces. It could be very interesting.

I'm betting we have a bit of a time skip between TLJ and the next film. Gives the Resistance time to rebuild and they can also have Leia die of natural causes and start the movie at her funeral or what have you so we can see the Resistance in dire need of a new figurehead. Meanwhile Kylo's Order will be having mixed success but ultimately still a huge threat, especially just based off of how intimidating his military strikes are.
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  #33  
Old 12-18-2017, 03:48 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So, one of my major criticisms from the first film was that the First Order wasn't a compelling antagonist. Kylo lost his fight against Rey, who hadn't picked up a lightsaber in her life. More importantly, the First Order military lost both on-screen battles against the Resistance. This included that battle in the middle of the film on neutral ground, when the First Order had to retreat after taking so many casualties, and the Resistance basically marched their head of state on the planet for a meeting. (They did destroy the Republic capital which makes them a threat, but it's the same threat as a terrorist group. Terrorists can't stand and face their enemy in open battle, but they can sneak up and suddenly bomb you catastrophically. Was the New Order supposed to be ragtag terrorists?)

In this current film, does the First Order ever win a battle against the Resistance - either destroying them or forcing them to retreat/escape?

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  #34  
Old 12-18-2017, 04:18 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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In this current film, does the First Order ever win a battle against the Resistance - either destroying them or forcing them to retreat/escape?
Yes and that's a central plot.
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:59 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Yes and that's a central plot.
Well. Good.
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  #36  
Old 12-18-2017, 08:41 AM
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What was the point of killing Luke anyway? The whole revelation that he wasn't really there was cool as hell and the point of that was to shown that Ren could not kill him. And then he dies by himself anyway. What a joke.
To prevent another Carry Fisher. They know their main attractions are old. They lucked out with Harrison Ford being an ungrateful prick who demanded to be killed off by himself but Luke and Leia really needed to be killed off in 8 and 9. Why? Because their actors are old and won't be available much longer. I'd call it a cynical way of viewing it but, well...yeah.
It's not just the premature dieing. Humans in the Star Wars universe tend to be fit and active much, much longer than in real life due to super advanced magic fairy dust medical science. If Luke wasn't portrayed by Mark Hamill, make no mistake, he would NOT look as old as he does. They also wanted every movie to showcase one of the original big three ("fuck you, Chewie, fuck you, C-3PO and R2-D2, and ESPECIALLY fuck you, Lando") and Luke surviving would have overshadowed Leia. Which... isn't going to be a problem anymore unless they recast Carry Fisher, which they already said they won't do.

As for the movie, well, kinda shit, tons of Force-Ass-Pulls that makes Papa Palpatine's resurections look tame. 2/10 and that's one point each for the First Order AT-ATs and not being an Empire rip off. Well, not entirely. Actually feels more as if they spliced themes from all three original trilogy movies together. And then added some fanfiction.
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  #37  
Old 12-18-2017, 10:10 AM
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I'm ok with Luke's death, they are trying to pass the torch and it was done well.




But I still feel sad about it, even yelled "NO" when he was gone.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:22 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Yep, he's an impulsive hothead that flies off the handle at any slight. That's why I'm excited. He's not the Emperor or even Snoke, he couldn't possible build this stuff up on his own. He's just taking the reigns. This gives the Resistance opportunities to capitalize on Kylo's fuck ups, but it also means that whatever target Kylo is set on is probably fucked because he's going personally go out himself into combat along with most of his forces. It could be very interesting.

I'm betting we have a bit of a time skip between TLJ and the next film. Gives the Resistance time to rebuild and they can also have Leia die of natural causes and start the movie at her funeral or what have you so we can see the Resistance in dire need of a new figurehead. Meanwhile Kylo's Order will be having mixed success but ultimately still a huge threat, especially just based off of how intimidating his military strikes are.
Kylo Ren is Anakin Skywalker. He is pretty much a copy of Anakin in ever story beat so far. That's all I could think of watching TLJ.

And in the next movie we are going to see what would've happened had Anakin/Vader succeded building his "empire".

Which is going to run it into the ground because Ren isn't a politician.
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Old 12-18-2017, 12:01 PM
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Kylo Ren is Anakin Skywalker. He is pretty much a copy of Anakin in ever story beat so far. That's all I could think of watching TLJ.

And in the next movie we are going to see what would've happened had Anakin/Vader succeded building his "empire".

Which is going to run it into the ground because Ren isn't a politician.
OT Vader is much more competent than Kylo Ren.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:31 PM
Rufin Rufin is offline

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Kylo Ren is Anakin Skywalker. He is pretty much a copy of Anakin in ever story beat so far. That's all I could think of watching TLJ.
Kylo is Anakin if Anakin's storyline was handled with competence and executed well. Far more compelling character portrayal. Adam Driver killed it in TLJ.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:19 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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OT Vader is much more competent than Kylo Ren.
Not so much in politics. But in striking fear and keeping his emotions in check? Vader all the way for sure.

Although it says very little for Snoke.

I really don't think that the FO has a single compatent politician in it's ranks.

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Kylo is Anakin if Anakin's storyline was handled with competence and executed well. Far more compelling character portrayal. Adam Driver killed it in TLJ.
Yes and no.

What I really want to see is just what kind of person Ren was back during his jedi training days. Somehow, I don't know if he has moved forward as a character, or if he has always been emo.

Driver was compelling up until he did his "Together we can rule the galaxy" schtick. Then he reverted to form after that. Which I guess is just who he is.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:26 PM
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Not so much in politics. But in striking fear and keeping his emotions in check? Vader all the way for sure.

Although it says very little for Snoke.

I really don't think that the FO has a single compatent politician in it's ranks.
Does FO even have politics? I don't see how did they gather so much forces and wiped out everyone so easily. None of their named characters are close to the level of being competent.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:26 PM
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You probatly already heared of the low audience ratings on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic.

Well, guess what?

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...ore-last-jedi/

I actually already had a feeling that Bots where in play, when I saw that many 1/2 point reviews on RT.
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:24 PM
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Old 12-18-2017, 05:27 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Does FO even have politics? I don't see how did they gather so much forces and wiped out everyone so easily. None of their named characters are close to the level of being competent.
It's the Force, so they don't have to explain sht.

The only FO politics we have seen is Hux's little speech in the first movie. As for propaganda it's pretty damn weaksauce. It's like ARM said earlier about the FO.

Evidently the entire galaxy decided that ships were bad and defending your planets/sectors is bad and is just letting the FO ROFLstomp over them. It really makes zero sense.
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Old 12-18-2017, 05:42 PM
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I'm also reading that they seem to have made subverting expectations the core of the movie. Like, everything is designed to be a surprise to the audience for some dumb reason. If you were expecting a coherent narrative that makes sense, that expectation will be subverted.
The movie I saw was pretty much this, start to finish, top to bottom.

Or to be more accurate, it felt like a bunch of butthurt producers and executives really hated the "Predictable EP4 rehash" criticism TFA got and went way the hell overboard with highjacking the entire movie for the cause of proving how many times they can surprise their "ungrateful whiny fanboys/girls" of an audience within the span of ~150 minutes.

Multiple character deaths are teased and then pulled back in ridiculous ways, from magic space survival (I'm fine the the telekinesis itself) or by high speed vehicular collision (with two unsafe pieces of junk) being a good plan for saving the drivers' lives.

Elsewhere, multiple characters with potential are killed off for but a moment's thrill, leaving the movie to awkwardly try and figure out how the resolve the resulting scene, whether by having a reveal about someone's heritage (whether you liked it or not) result in no change one way or the other to the manipulated subject's conviction, or by having a villain have a fall to their death through a collapsing starship's floor and then somehow having a ride on BB-8x-machina amount to successfully escaping said collapsing starship, the details of actually securing transportation through space need not be on screen.

And don't even get me started on the officer hiding her backup plan from her mutinous subordinates for seemingly no damn reason other than not telling the audience she has one (because the audience must be surprised at all costs, as often as possible, remember?), actually creating a legitimate, full-on plothole considering all the other crap that happened as a result.
Even said officer's sacrificial suicide ramming act later wasn't portrayed as redemption for her dumbassery, which the movie fails to even recognize - it was just there to be cool. And sure enough, it was. But that's neither here nor there.

Funnily enough, after all that, I'm actually fine with the sunset near the end. Seems to me that people who figure it happened "for no reason" are just trying to be a bit too grounded and practical about it, as weird as that may sound. I mean, up to that point, the movie didn't exactly have a good track record for killing off named characters for actually thought out reasons instead of shock value, so I'm glad they at least went for something bigger and more thematic (if a bit vague for some tastes, evidently) with the one character who deserves it the most.
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:17 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Finally got around to watching it.
- The last death is kind of explained by how Ben felt Rey's blaster. That was a delayed lightsaber kill, I guess.
- I also don't think Rey's parents were honestly "revealed." What was there feels like a red herring.
- The comedy was too much for sure.
- Why is literally everyone including Space Plumber Rose able to fly now? Is it like driving a car now?
- I'm still mad that the entire New Republic and its entire military except for a small handful of ships was handwaved in the opening crawl.
- I agree on the bombers being dumb as dirt
- No questions answered. I'm getting flashbacks to the end of RotS when they tied up 20 plot points in 10 minutes.

All in all it was okay.
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:20 PM
Rufin Rufin is offline

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Dwelling on it some more I think the part I dislike the most is Rey on the island with Luke. The casino city was a waste of time, but I knew it was stupid from the jump. Rey on the island meeting Luke was a HUGE moment for Star Wars and the cliffhanger from TFA, and what happens?

Luke says that Rey is growing close to the Dark Side. Then it's never brought up again.

Rey falls down a hole into a Dark Side connection place (maybe? it's never explained) and nothing happens. She doesn't change at all. It's not brought up again.

Luke doesn't train Rey in the Force.

Luke doesn't train Rey with her saber.

Luke doesn't teach Rey anything about the Jedi. He also doesn't offer another path.

Instead he just talks to Rey. They just TALK. And all he really says is "Yeah I made Kylo even more evil on accident and got my students killed so now I'm sad." Then she leaves.

It was a gargantuan waste of time, boring, and most of all, A DISAPPOINTMENT. The best parts on the island were when Rey and Kylo were talking across the galaxy and that wasn't due to Luke or the island's presence, it just happened to happen while she was there.
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:59 PM
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Yeah, many plot twists are simply there for plot twists.
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Old 12-18-2017, 08:42 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I guess we're just going to have to wait for the EU to explain who Snoke, the destroyer of the entire New Repubic who somehow managed to avoid the detection of Palpatine and Vader during their hunt for force sensitives during the reign of the Empire and who turned Ben Solo to the dark side (ie, the entire reason behind the events of the sequel trilogy), because he's not important enough to talk about in the movies.
http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/17/star...lled-theories/
What did Snoke even want? What was his goal?
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