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Old 07-18-2014, 01:40 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Default Neutrals In The Story

How do you feel about them? Are they good for the story, bad, or does it not matter? Does it depend on the context? What are your favorite factions? What are your most hated? Who has the better written story? How powerful or active should neutrals be? Do they need to prefer one playable faction over the other? How should they be written in the future?
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:00 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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before this thread gets fojared, yeah I don't mind neutrals, when they are done right. The earthen ring to me is one of the best examples of a neutral faction done right, a group focused on handling something major and not getting wrapped up in a faction war, while still taking in help from those offering.

When you looked at the things the cenarion circle and the earthen ring did in cata, and then looked at the alliance/horde, it really made you realize how fucking immature the faction war has been all this time, when something major is happening, the kiddy factions still carry on fighting.

Good neutral factions give something important to focus on, where as player factions are just like seeing teenage gangs coming along to a burning building and expecting to help the firefighters and ambulance.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:28 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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What Tauren Paly said.

If Alliance and Horde were good then we would have no need for the Friction Thread 2. They have already proven in the four years of spotlight that they can't make the universe more compelling.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:31 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
What Tauren Paly said.

If Alliance and Horde were good then we would have no need for the Friction Thread 2. They have already proven in the four years of spotlight that they can't make the universe more compelling.
which is why you need other factions. Because of the rigid workings of wow, it won't ever open itself to a third faction. so the only way to have any developing lore outside of the H/A faction mess is to have neutral factions doing things not associated with faction.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:21 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I don't like them as gigantic class based organizations because those take away themes from the playable factions. We know next to nothing about Stormwind's Paladins and practices of the Holy Light because the Argent Dawn took it all. We'll never get any racial diversity for the Druid class because there's only one true way to be the Druid, and that's the Cenarion way. Someone could probably argue that Orcs have been ruined into going down their villain path because all the Shaman that kept them in-line went neutral.

I don't mind neutrality since I think it's a little inevitable when you're pressed for time but I think it needs to be factions that aren't based on classes. Stuff like the Klaxxi, Sporelings, Hydraxian Waterlords, etc. are the kind of neutral faction concepts that I prefer more of.

And stuff like the Might of Kalimdor should be the solution against worldly threats.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:22 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Neutrals are bad and if they're going to play such a massive role then factions should be done away with altogether.

Kill all neutrals.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:24 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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The big issue with neutral characters is that once they go neutral they stay neutral. The Kirin Tor circa-MoP were pretty decent in that they weren't doing bugger all once the Nexus War was over and thus ended up in the Alliance (moreso thanks to Jaina than because "we're bored" but still).

As much of a Blackhole Sue as Thrall is, at least it was always apparent where his loyalties were and where he would return to once his temporary-stint into Neutraldom was over.

The Knights of the Ebon Blade are one of the better neutral factions like this I feel. I mean it helps that they actually have a decent reason to stay neutral; nobody else likes 'em, so fuck it, they might as well stick together, but also that we see characters and even minor quest NPCs (Thassarian, Kolitra, for some reason we see a fair few Alliance-aligned Dwarf DKs in Horde quests) return to the fold of their faction. Nobody complains about the KotEB because they were unique and a new creation unlike the Argents and Cenarions who were Paladins and Druids respectively with heavy Alliance themes.

If the Cenarion Circle/Argent Crusade at least had elements that returned to the fold of their faction once the job was done it would work better. Etrigg returns to the Horde, but we don't hear fuck all from the Silver Hand ever again. The Cenarion Circle are probably the most obnoxious version given they stay neutral once Ragnaros is dealt with and do nothing about the Horde.

So yeah, neutral factions can work, but they need to either be unique enough they're NOT taking away from the Alliance/Horde's characters/flavour in the process OR return to their respective faction when the job is done.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:34 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Neutrals are bad and if they're going to play such a massive role then factions should be done away with altogether.

Kill all neutrals.
Despite your other ramblings, this is a point as well.

If the neutral factions are going to be played up as the levelheaded protagonists who gets stuff done in setting, then they need to just do away with the two faction system. There's not a lot of point to them if their entire existence is only to be characterized as irrational, hateful bigots who are contributing more to bringing about the end of the world than getting anything done. It's rather annoying to try to make fans proud of their faction and then immediately turn around and denounce them for it via the expansion's current neutral hero of the day.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:42 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Alliance and Horde serve a purpose as a collection of like minded civilizations that exist for the sole reason of self benefit, preservation and trolling the other side "Because reasons"

Even i know that and i still haven't played the game since Crapaclysm.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:52 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
Alliance and Horde serve a purpose as a collection of like minded civilizations that exist for the sole reason of self benefit, preservation and trolling the other side "Because reasons"

Even i know that and i still haven't played the game since Crapaclysm.
And that's a problem rather than how things should be.

Although, the "self benefit and preservation" lines are pretty realistic with the real world and those should be maintained, but they should also be more than just those three lines you bring up.

EDIT: I maintain that despite some story hiccups, Vanilla handled things perfectly in terms of bad guys and coalitions. Villains weren't so ridiculously powerful that they required a Son Goku to defeat them, and the battles waged against them by the Alliance and Horde were far better than... whatever direction they've decided to take things now.

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Old 07-18-2014, 06:08 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
before this thread gets fojared, yeah I don't mind neutrals, when they are done right. The earthen ring to me is one of the best examples of a neutral faction done right, a group focused on handling something major and not getting wrapped up in a faction war, while still taking in help from those offering.

When you looked at the things the cenarion circle and the earthen ring did in cata, and then looked at the alliance/horde, it really made you realize how fucking immature the faction war has been all this time, when something major is happening, the kiddy factions still carry on fighting.

Good neutral factions give something important to focus on, where as player factions are just like seeing teenage gangs coming along to a burning building and expecting to help the firefighters and ambulance.
Going to agree with Fojar and Lord Grimtale, everything you described above is what's wrong with both Neutral Factions and the two main factions. In terms of development we all know Neutrals exist to cut down on the development of the main factions, and the only time the main factions get development is when its mirrored (often poorly like with NPCs having the same or similar dialogue to Horde and Alliance players on Isle of Thunder). Neutrals are the bane of a better story. They need to pick a faction or go back to their original factions, and then expand as necessary.

Argent Crusade, Back to the Alliance.
Earth Ring, Back to the Horde, expand to include Horde Druids.
Cenarion Circle, Back to the Alliance, expand to include Alliance Shamans.

The only Neutral factions which make sense being Neutral are those like the Tuskarr, Sporregar, Wyrmrest Accord, etc... factions that -enhance- the story by looking after their own interests. It should be up to the two main factions to focus on the bigger picture. Neutrals that look after their specific little slice of the world make sense. Or if they look after something bigger, they need to ridiculously unaffiliated with the two main factions, like the dragons.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:19 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Dissolve factions entirely and just have everyone work together like Hyjal, AQ, and Draenor.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:20 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Dissolve factions entirely and just have everyone work together like Hyjal, AQ, and Draenor.
I don't -want- to work with the Alliance.

I mean I don't play anymore so what I want doesn't really matter but still
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:33 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I don't -want- to work with the Alliance.

I mean I don't play anymore so what I want doesn't really matter but still
Me neither, however I do prefer it over "well you have two factions but we're going to make you feel bad for liking either one of them instead of the awesome shiny neutrals that we want you to like more because they do cooler stuff".
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:40 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Sure, let's do this Wrathion Style. Alliance wins the War and absorbs the Horde races into it. United Azeroth. No more need for Neutral factions. They can all just join the Alliance because everyone will be united and not fighting anymore.

Until Warcraft 4 where the Horde rebels and fragments the glorious Alliance Empire. For reasons. Because in WoW the conquered Horde would probably get treated like Kings. Free access to Alliance resources and supplies and protection and so forth, freedom to go where they want on Azeroth, etc... But in Warcraft 4 the Alliance will go back to being notorious racists and bigots and all.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:49 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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I think we already discussed this once.

You people have it in mind that red and blue are heroes.

Mists of Pandaria and Cataclysm proved that to be false.

They have their own story, nothing takes away from it. If they're absolutely crappy then it is their fault. If they are unable to crank out interesting things from within their own narrative then it is their fault. Additional class related groups aren't going to do shit if they're already awful to begin with.
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Me neither, however I do prefer it over "well you have two factions but we're going to make you feel bad for liking either one of them instead of the awesome shiny neutrals that we want you to like more because they do cooler stuff".
If we're going to fix things we might as well fix them RIGHT.

Treat the factions and their greivances as legitimate.
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